Lindens define ageplay!

See this is why I wrote this thread. It prooves my hidden agenda involved which is that if the average person has no idea what ageplay is and why some people are up in arms about the linden labs decision.

I will say this one more time for those of you that missed it, repeatedly. I have 2 second life islands that are designed for baby furs.. I designed them to be for fun as in PG situations. In fact everything mature happens way above the ground where it isn't a public area. This includes such stuff as having bits out or mature vendors and pornographic images of any sort.

I am worried that Linden Labs, without taking any sound or rational decisions, will decide my islands are against their new age play policy and I will be forced to close.

This is the reason I want them to define ageplay. If they are basing this decision on the words of others that don't even hae an educated idea as to what it is, then how can they define ageplay as something that is offensive to a majority of people. They don't know what it is and are uninformed as well of what it is about.

If Linden Labs bases their decision off that of the average person then for one it is biased off the very fact that they don't know nor do they want to know what it is and therefore deem it to be offensive to the general populous. Second, the populous is further perpetuating false ideas about what ageplay is and why its offensive to them.

So my hope is that Linden Labs will not further help perpetuate the rumors and will also not base their decision on uninformed and biased opinions.

Raven... I'll make clear that I have no problem at all with people wanting to play as children within SL, whether as babyfurs, human, whatever....

... I have a problem with people saying that it is OK to for adults to pretend to have sex with children in SL... it is just so morally and ethically wrong... and not the sort of thing we should be encouraging within SL if it is to become a true Second Life and grow into something very special.

And if LL want SL to grow then they are doing the correct thing by clamping down on the display and advertising of 'Sexual Ageplay'. Personally I think that tey should outright ban anyone caught pretending to have sex with a minor... and I think in the future as SL becomes larger and governments start to take an interest then they will almost definately have to do that otherwise they will find themselves not being able to run SL for people from certain countries.

For what its worth Raven, from my reading of the notecard I don't think they are clamping down on people who just want to play as children (or babyfurs), just those who want to actively engage in pretend underage sex, so I think your islands will be fine so long as you don't have any underage sex on them.

Personally, I don't know why some of you are so shocked by this. There have been dozens of threads in the forums griping and arguing about ageplay and child pornography, discussing it ad nauseum, expressing outrage that it's going on, labeling it as sick, etc., and demanding that LL do something about it.

So, now they've done something about it, as so many people demanded... and there's more griping and arguing. What a surprise.

Seems to me that LL is in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation on this... no matter whether they leave the ageplayers alone or impose restrictions, no matter whether they stand on the side of 'freedom of speech' or 'moral standards', somebody's going to be offended. In which case, I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to do what will avoid possible legal trouble.

Legal issues? Linden Labs? they haven't even tried to answer how they can allow Gambling through the game even though many countries have laws against it, including internet gambling. As for sexual ageplay here is my take on it. If any of you men on here have ever had the fantasy of the hot teacher in class, or have seen a pornographic film about it, you are guilty of sexual ageplay.

Any of you ladies ever call your lover daddy or mommy? You are guilty of sexual age play. Does anyone else see this? Here is another example for you. If sexual age play is so offensive then how come when David Lee Roth sang Hot for Teacher, if it was so morally offensive, how come it is now a classic hit and used in many tv shows and movies over and over again.

Now then I hear some of you going well if they are depicting a child then they are wrong and are pedophiles. I'm sure many of you guys have wanted to see your girl dressed up in a school uniform or a cheerleader's outfit. If you answered yes to that, guess what you are just guilty of being pedophiles by the way people are terming this.

Perhaps some of you will hear my words here and understand that the problem is the vocabulary used and also how vague the wording really is. Do not look at the note card and try to read it for just face value, instead try to see how many ways it can be interpreted with the wording it currently uses.

All of you, for or against age play, look closely at what is occurring, look at the wording, understand what consequences may happen as a result. Understand the bias that can be formed and the prejudices that are already starting to form because of a vague note card. Simply banning something because many people don't understand what it means or what it is, simply has no basis to be considered. I ask the lindens and everyone else to look at the ramifications of both sides of this argument and see what can be gained or lost by this passing in its current form.

They will not.....why because if they did then they have to answer to everyone.

Lets just add one more shall we Raven? If you've ever simulated an adult having sex with an 8 year old, you're a paedophile.

oh well

well llabs seems to closing their eles to things at time these days............but what is a laugh is some that played both sides and now says its a laugh how people are making a big deal about this....

You have a few good points here...atleast some people are not double backing on their first remarks........

Here are some more observations that might make a few of you scratch your heads and wonder too.

If age play is so reprehensible then why do most people call their lover baby? Guys, i know some of you have called your wife over saying come here little girl or come here baby. Why is a slang term for a house called a crib? Pet names people have used for their significant other also include baby doll, baby girl, baby boy, little man, big boy, big girl. These are all in our day to day vocabulary, now I ask you, why is that? Here is one that will get you all, why do ladies call their husband daddy and why do many men want to marry someone like their mother? Why do men have a fixation on breasts?

Many of you are probably going to ask me this so I will beat you to the punch. Why am I stating all this? Because this is ingrained in our own behaviors, mannerisms, languages, instincts and day to day activities.

If any of you have ever said or done anything I have said here, then does that make you a pedophile? If not then how come it doesn't and be specific here, explain why this doesn't count as being a pedophile and doesn't pertain to this argument.

Its quite simple Raven... if you call your RL girlfriend/lover Baby, you aren't imagining that you are shagging a child.

In SL when your adult AV is having sex with a child AV then you quite clearly are imagining that sitiuation... and if you aren't then you should both be wearing adult AVs.

Very simple...

Jonathan, and everyone else. how many of you saw the South Park Episode where Ike had sex with his kindergarten teacher? What did they show every guy doing in this episode? They all were saying nice! and where were these teachers when I went to school, and but she's hot!. Our society is one of double standards where on one side we say something is horrible and on the other, we glamorize it to new heights. This is the point I am trying to make, not that I want to have sex with children, far from it, in fact I believe true pedophiles, the ones that have harmed children, should be castrated thereby ending the problem and don't get me started if they murder the child after because my views there are for as much pain and suffering before they meet their doom for justice.

EDIT

Jonathan, I would like to talk to you one on one in second life as you seem to be the only person on the other side that speaks rationally and puts some thought into his arguments. I want you to see what things I am tying my arguments to and why I am defending my position so strongly. If that is agreeable to you Jonathan, then next time you are in game, send me an instant message and we will sit down and chat man to man or man to fox kit as thats what i look like.

No, I had the floor at the moment, and no it was not ignored: it was sidestepped. Acknowledged, but not directly answered, more of a "call it what you will" response that did not address the substance of the question.

Now granted, like you indicated, dat was right at the end after an hour of peoples tryin to shout their say, so I bet dat had an influence on tings.

Mari

It isn't?



How exactly do you justify the idea that you know what ageplayers are THINKING.... if you have never studied the practice of ageplay?
Seriously... you can't just ASSUME that you know what they are thinking, and that it is the worst possible thing they could be thinking - that is a striking and extreme assumption!

I'm the author of the Guide to BDSM and Kink in SL. We do cover ageplay, so I have had to go out and research ageplay, and find out how it really works.

I've found a few things which are interesting.

1) Most tops who do ageplay do so as a favour to their partners. They don't get much sexual kick from it, they do it primarily because they love making other people happy, and meeting other peoples' needs. Or they simply do it as a favour. There are quite a lot of bottoms/submissives who enjoy doing ageplay (regression in particular). Of these, some also like combining ageplay with sexual play. The number of tops/dominants willing to do those scenes is actually quite small - and the primary reason they do it seems to be because they enjoy making their kinky play partners happy.

So : don't assume that the top/dominant in a sexual ageplay scene is getting off from it. Often, they are much more concerned with their partner's pleasure than they are with their own.




A pedophile enjoys using children sexually for their own (the pedophile's pleasure):
1) The child is a RL minor, and thus cannot consent.
2) The child is not someone the pedo cares about, it is someone they are happy to use and discard - like a living sex toy/object.


An ageplayer who is on top in a sexual ageplay scene with their partner:
1) Is getting enjoyment primarily from THEIR PARTNER being happy. They care a lot about their partners, typically, which is why they are willing to do such things to make them happy.
2) Knows throughout that their partner is an adult. However, if their partner regresses too much, the top may end the scene to stop their partner melting into a puddle.

The two cases are completely different. The reasons the top has for doing sexual ageplay are usually completely opposite for the reasons that a pedo has for rape.
One trades on force - exploitation and co-ercion - the pedo doesn't give a damn about the welfare of the child they abuse. This is what makes pedophilia such a bad thing. If they truly cared about the child, they would respect the child's body and mind and leave him/her the hell alone.
The other trades on caring a LOT about your partner - the top in sexual ageplay scenes is usually doing it to please their partner. Hell, the top in such scenes is USUALLY a switch or even submissive, trying to please another adult who they care about. The ageplay top knows that no matter what their partner looks like online they are really an adult. If the submissive in an ageplay scene gets so truly out of it that they can no longer communicate (for example, saying STOP if they become uncomfortable) then it is the top's responsibility to halt the scene on safety grounds. In RL BDSM and ageplay scenes/playspaces, there are often 'safeties' - submissives trained to watch the scenes and monitor the submissive for signs of distress, stopping the scene if the submissive suggests, even subconsiously, that they are not comfortable or not enjoying what is going on.



I have looked into how ageplay works psychologically, and found that it does seem to be based on caring about your partner and wanting them to be happy in many cases.

IMHO, pedophiles are people who fundamentally don't care about the children they abuse. If they truly cared about the child, they would not abuse the child.

It is for this reason that ageplayers don't become pedophiles - ageplayers care about the ADULTS they play with, and refuse to play with minors because that goes against the ethical rules of BDSM and kinky sexuality in general.

There could be pedophiles who try ageplay and find it doesn't work for them, and instead go on to abuse RL children. Obviously, people who would abuse RL children need help.

The thing is, you can't assume that ageplay leads to or is generally related to pedophilia. They are very different things.

Ageplayers are not interested, generally, in having sex with children - real or imaginary.
Usually, what they want to do is regress in their partner's arms, or look after their regressed partner. The use of childlike presentation (e.g. child avs in SL) helps them relax and encourages roleplay. Both partners are still aware that their partner is an adult, and an adult they care about.



Calling your RL girlfriend/lover 'baby' is a very trivial form of ageplay. Letting them dress up in a schoolgirl outfit and pretending to spank them for something is a much heavier version of the same thing. You're both aware they're not really a schoolgirl or a baby... you're just treating them similarly to one in some ways, for a short amount of time, because it makes you both happy.

It is certainly possible for players who use adult avs to have sex with child avs to be imagining that they are having sex with a RL child. I would worry about players who enjoy imagining that, and would advise them to seek the help of a trained professional psychologist, to make sure that they never act on those desires in RL.

Ageplay, however, is very different. Tops in ageplay are not imagining that they are having sex with a RL child. Having studied ageplay for awhile, I have found out that that this is just not what ageplayers are imagining when they do ageplay. They are far more likely to be going along with the roleplay game, trying to make their partner happy, or just trying to relax for a bit by regressing.

And thus, you show your misunderstanding of the subject.
From what I can tell (from actually researching the subject and talking to people, rather than kneejerk reactions and conjecture), most age players "get their kicks" by pretending to molest an adult behaving like a child.

People have rape fantasies here, too. Where's your outrage about that? Where's the ban on that? Torture fantasies. Torture's wrong, isn't it? Someone that actually wants to torture someone "need(s) serious help", don't they? Or at least to join Mr. Ashcroft's Army. *wink*

But we don't ban those activities because we understand that these are safe interactions between two consenting adults. ESPECIALLY on SL, people have to consent to it.

As far as I can see, again, from actually looking in to the subject, rather than opining whatever pops into my head, it's the same for ageplay. One partner wants to regress, the other wants to feel naughty.
With BDSM, one wants to be in control, the other wants to feel like they're in control.
In rape fantasies, the "victim" knows that they are safe.

Live and let live.

Until someone shows me actual proof of ageplayers being paedophiles or ageplaying leading to child abuse... ACTUAL proof, not "Oh, come on. It's obvious." or the like... that's the motto I'll be going by.


Edited to add:

Well said, Angel. You put it far better than I ever could.

All these definitions/clarifications of Age Play are relevant im sure -

However Linden Labs seems to have defined it as any sexual activity involving a avatar that apears to be a child or claims their avatar is under 18.

If you advertize "Age Play" in second life - your going to be assumed to be doing that.

this might not be the correct definition - but its the one that matters to those who might be breaking the rules.

The media is also probably going to see it as that too. Especially is as other posters suggested what went down in Yahoo chat.

The issues around 'age play' are very clear. If you're running around playing hide and seek or star wars and yearning for times past, i very much doubt that you'll be targeted for anything other than a virtual wedgie. Those engaging in child sexual abuse role play scenarios, however, should be banned from doing so.

Before i go further, I should state the following:

No, I can't quote from any research proving the links between sexual abuse role play on SL and real life sexual abuse, because of course it doesn't exist. Yet.

No, I can't give examples of how virtual representations of child abuse are dealt with in law, because the law is still getting to grips with the new ingenious ways abusers and potential abusers are getting their fantasies out to each other. There are some interesting articles out there on how it's beginning to be tackled though. Look it up.

No, I can't give you stats on how many child sexual abuse role players on SL are convicted abusers in their first lives. Again, that study does not yet exist. It's widely known though, that there are many abusers out there who are never convicted and those who never come to the attention of the authorities. No i don't know how many of them use SL..

What we do know, however, is that real life child sexual abuse and sexual violence is often preceded by fantasies about the act and use of pornography to fuel fantasies about the act. This information comes from real live child sexual abusers themselves. Look it up. The fantasy and the pornography provide preparation and motivation, and desensitize participants. The more little harmless Joe on sl masturbates to the fantasy, the more likely they are to put the fantasy into practice. The behaviours become habitual, reinforced by the pleasure of the fantasy and the masturbation.

Allowing child sexual abuse role play on SL plays a part in normalising and justification. Sexual abusers will often be found to attempt to normalise, rationalise and justify their actions. Arguments found here will be of great comfort to them i'm sure. SL is also providing a forum for like minded individuals to come together with little recrimination; taking full advantage of people not understanding fully the implications of what is happening here, and civil liberties soap boxers who either don't understand or don't prioritise the link these role plays may have in preparation for actual acts of sexual abuse.
Right now, SL is a nice little training ground. No pixels may have been harmed in the act, but they serve a very real purpose in preparing the way for real harm.

We can't be sure either who is behind those avatars. Maybe it is consenting adults in training. Maybe there are also children being groomed for the act itself. Paedophiles must think SL a gift from the gods for all the opportunities it provides.

Ok .. so what you are saying is the 'adult' AV is only wanting to do it to please the 'child' AV. So what sort of state of mind do you have to be in to want to pretend to be a child having sex with an adult?

If I was the 'adult' AV doing it just to please my partner, frankly I'd be more worried about the pschological state of the partner and would be wanting to get him/her help rather than let them play out what is in every way... a very disturbing fantasy!

I don't like the idea of forced sex in SL either... although of course it isn't really forced as both parties involved are doing it of their own free will.. but at least they are both adults playing adults.

I know, I know.... both parties involved in Sexual ageplay within SL are doing it of their own free will as well and both are (we hope) adults in RL, but....

When it comes to the depiction/insinuation of children having sex with adults then you are treading on even thinner ice that disgusts pretty much the large majority of the worlds population in SL and RL.

There are some things that are wrong, morally reprehensible and illegal in the Real World such as this, that people with decent morals should also see as unnacceptable in SL, a world that can be inhabited by anyone, from all backgrounds, races, religions etc (even people under 18 even though they shouldn't be able to access SL, but we know they do)

Now... I know that to stop it happening in SL is pretty much an impossible task for anyone to do no matter how much against it they are.

So what the Lindens have said is don't advertise it, don't display it/do it in public. Sure, if you are that sad that you need to pretend to have sex with minors to get your kicks or vice-versa, then all they are asking is that you do it in private where no-one else who can see it or can accidently stumble across it.

Personally I don't see that as being too hard to understand from the notecard they sent around, and I don't see why you all have such a problem with it when all you have to do is keep it private and away from the general population who would find such things in much distaste.

In your opinion. This is not a fact, only an opinion.



How about any link between RL ageplaying and paedophilia? Anything? How about ANY link between ageplay of any sort and paedophilia?
Like others, you are conjecturing and projecting and not taking into account any sort of reality regarding the subject.



You're comparing apples to oranges. Ageplay isn't paedophila. It just isn't.



Ageplay isn't child sexual abuse.



As I said earlier, isn't that the underlying problem? Isn't the lack of an "Age Check" of some sort more of a problem, when it comes to paedohiles, than innocent ageplayers?

I'm all for protecting children, don't get me wrong, but it's not the issue we're talking about.

Your post is full of "Maybe's" and "What if's" and opinions, but bear very little relation to the reality of the situation.

And that's your opinion and that's fine. Many other people see it different.
Your opinion is just that. An opinion. It's not fact.



So... it's ok with you to rape someone in SL because it's just pretend, but ageplay ISN'T ok, even though it's... just pretend?

Nice double standard.



And Gambling and women showing their skin and killing people and and and...



Nice of you to impose YOUR morals on the rest of us, yet decry everyone else for trying to define theirs.
Well done.



Unless they do something that you don't like. Then they're sick and twisted disgusting and reprehensible and immoral and need help.
Awesome.



Now you're changing your argument. Moving the goalposts. What Angel was doing is to try to explain what regressive roleplay or ageplay is. In that post, she didn't denounce LL for the notecard nor the policy.

What I, and I think many others, have a problem with is NOT the Linden Labs policy regarding this, it's people who have no understanding of the subject pontificating about how wrong it is and spreading misinformation and untruths.

Me? I've said before that I'm not into it. Not one bit. It's not my thing.

But I am nowhere NEAR arrogant enough to tell someone else that they are immoral for something that they, as two(or more)consenting adults do together.

I don't have a problem with the "Don't advertise" policy. I kinda wish they'd have said, "Look. People get squicked out by it. You know this. It's not for everyone. We're getting bad press about it and it can hurt our company, which, in turn, hurts everyone. So we're going to have to stop public displays of it to get rid of the bad press. Keep doing what you do in your own bedrooms, but we really can't have it on display, 'k?" and just be done with it, but...

I think this is what happend - But of course they cant say that.

Becuase then the press would report they said that.

LOL

You don't seem to know a lot and you took a quite a few paragraphs of typing to prove that.

If you really believe people think it's really a normal desire to want to sexually interact with childlike Avatars here (as a substitute for doing something in RL presumably), you are deluding yourself.

People like you (haters) and others here who see sexual age players as leapers could care less about what benefit they get from having a safe non-real world place in which to vent their desires.

[Sarcasm On/ I'm sure a person who plays here while reading about people getting caught in the real world after committing real crimes, thinks to themselves, "I think I'd rather do this for real, I'm sure I won't get caught!" Sarcasm Off/]

Truly? What about after watching TV or seeing an underwear ad? In your view it would seem that any possible stimulus would drive a would be perv to commit horrid acts in RL.

It must be wonderful for you to be "without sin". Your judgment of those you perceive as beneath you is humbling indeed.

Despite what you think, the reality is this. People who play here are logically far less likely to NEED to do ANYTHING else. If a person can "get off" playing at their computer, why risk the possibility of doing something that, even if they weren't sure was wrong, might get themselves (selfish perhaps) in trouble.

You and other haters need to develop some compassion. Do you even understand the word I wonder....

Would you trade places with someone who had this kind of unnatural desire?

Adults who engage in sexual age play don't seek your pity. Some compassion might be ok...

Why is there so much hatred from you and others with something like role play that even you must admit *HAS* to be better than doing something in the real world?!

Blessed are the weak for they will inherit the Earth, unless of course the haters don't wipe them all out first.

But isn't killing also immoral?

Jesus would be proud of you, maybe not.

/humanity On

I think you have a point, and I think it makes most people wildly uncomfortable to consider it. Which leads to hysteria and overreaction.

Err no... reread my post.. I think you'll find I said I don't like the idea of Forced Sex as well.



They are the morals of every decent person in the world.... go take a poll on the street and see how many think that sex with minors, no matter how it is depicted or pretended or shown, is acceptable in society.




What I'm saying is that if people feel the need to pretend to be child who has sex with children, then they should go see a good pshycologist/pyschiatrist and not just have there partners play along.



Where is YOUR understanding of it coming from then.... are you a doctor, a pyschologist, a psychiatrist, and academic who has undertaken a full study of the situation.... no.... neither am I... neither is, I doubt anyone who has piped up in this thread.... so we are all able to pontificate in whatever way like.



That bit I agree with... as I have said in the last post.

Um.. not only did I read your post, I quoted it. After your "I don't like forced sex", you dismissed the point with "although of course it isn't really forced as both parties involved are doing it of their own free will.. but at least they are both adults playing adults.", implying that you're ok with it. "At least they're both adults playing adults"...



You can't be serious. You honestly believe that your morals are the same as "every decent person in the world"? I think you may find that you are incorrect.
By saying this, you are saying that I am not a decent person, as I don't have a problem with two adults regressively roleplaying. You are saying that those cultures in the East, where people get married at a very young age, in accordance with centuries-old traditions, aren't decent.
You are imposing your morals on everyone else and have deluded yourself that you are right. You're not.



Your opinion, again. Not fact.
Many agree with you. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about ageplaying. not having sex with children. Just because you can't see a difference doesn't mean there isn't one.

Waitaminnit. Who's talking about pretending to be a "child who has sex with children"?
Please reread Angel's post. Please Wiki it. Please do SOME research on the subject.


Actually, Angel DID put up her credentials as an academic that has studied it... and you blindly ignored her very well-presented points.

But a nice attempt, with the "Who are you? An expert? If not, shut up" tack.

Personally, I HAVE done research. I HAVE talked to people. I did the homework.

It's pretty obvious you haven't.