Lindens define ageplay!

Nope.. it says I don't agree with it, but that what we are talking about in this thread is the depication of minors having sex with adults. Perhaps Forced rape should be for another thread





I have, as stated numerous times in this thread (but people have chosen to ignore it), clearly said I have no problem with 'ageplay' or people regressive roleplaying.. provided it doesn't turn into Sexual ageplay. That is where the boundary ends between acceptable fun and stuff that is deemed illegal in many parts of the world.





I apologise... typo... should have read "child who has sex with an adult"



Funny, in my research, I found it to be generally unacceptable and and thought of as wrong by most people.

I guess I must have just asked the same 'straights' that LL asked.. my bad

No, it says "at least they're adults", thus not as bad.
And dismissing a valid point, one that was brought up to rebut? Weak. Just plain weak.



But Sexual ageplay between two adults ISN'T illegal. It's not illegal anywhere that I've heard. It's just not.



But, as far as I can tell, you keep confusing Ageplay, even Sexual Ageplay, with paedophilia and Child Abuse, two completely seperate things.
In your research, did you ask "Is having sex with a kid, or wanting to, bad?" (Which, of course would be considered unacceptable... no one's arguing that) or did you ask "Is having sex with a consenting adult that likes to dress like a child bad?"



I don't even know where to go with this line. Are you somehow trying to say that I'm trying to be 'cool' or 'fighting against the man' or some nonsense like that? Are you saying that I'm calling you a "straight"?

The only reason I keep responding to you is that you demonize a group of people that you don't understand. You liken them to paedophiles and ignore anyone that tries to explain anything different, cherry picking posts for stuff you can twist and completely ignoring everything else.

Hysteria doesn't help. Lecturing from a place of ignorance doesn't help. Imposing moral values on others doesn't help.

Could you provide a citation with that fact?

---------------------------------- As far as I'm concerned...

This is not about morality...

or legality...

or minors on the grid...

or freedom of speech...

or protecting the children...

or tolerating 'sexual predators', 'perverts' and 'pedophiles'...

This is about people that pretend they're children for their own kinky amusement, and it's about LL's inherent right to say "We don't want our service used for simulating child molestation."

We could probably argue all day whether or not S.A.P. is implicitly dis-allowed by the ToS/CS... or whether it needs to be made more explicit. It would make little difference though.

Even if the ToS/CS was our constitution... we don't have a judicial branch to review and uphold law in SL, or any of the checks and balances that allow for us to appeal unjust laws.

The most powerful argument that I can see against LL banning SAP is that some might try to say that LL is breaking their contract with us by making this change to our service. (Good luck with that, it's worked so well for others in the past.)


I'm tired of the specious arguments that SAP grooms child molesters. There are many worse things out there promoting minors as sexually available and giving 'bad ideas' to adults. If that were sufficient reason, then the people promoting Britney Spears or the Olsen twins before they were of legal age should be arrested for portraying minors as sexual desirable, for example.

SAP is what it is: Offensive (to many). And it's a magnet for bad press. The kind of bad press that turns off many potential customers in ways that are very likely more damaging than tolerating other 'sub-cultures' does. (at least other 'sub-cultures' bring a fair degree of business with them even if they do scare off some people).

I see no slippery slope here.

I just see a company stuck with making difficult decisions... and a lot of people second guessing them. (myself included)

Amen, Jopsy. Amen.

*Great* post Jopsy.

As an aside, again, this is not so much of a discussion forum, or at least isn't supposed to be. I wish there were some good answers for the vagueries of the policy as it stands, so that those of us who are not participating in the icky stuff can know we're okay -- but I dun tink dat's gonna be forthcomin'.

Mari

Agreed. If anyone takes a step back and tries to objectively look at LL's side of things. I dont think they had much choice.

Some might like it or think they didnt go far enough.

Other might not like it and think they shouldnt have.

Others might not like how they went about it.

But, realistically, what choice did they have?

They are trying to survive in a tough market - Everyone keeps pointing out all the competitors that will be arriving soon. Not to mention the WOW's of the world. And LL's approach is far from conventional.

You should have stuck with all the "No, I can't give you any evidence" statements - because this argument is totally illogical.

You are looking at one side of a piece of card, and saying "because this side of the card is black, the other side must be white"...let me explain;

Yes, sex offenders are often found to have pornography. The part of the puzzle that you DON'T have is whether or not "normal" men (by which I mean, non-offending men) ALSO have pornography. The police have never raided and searched their homes, so you simply don't know.

You cannot say that ONLY sex offenders use pornography - you can only say that sex offenders have pornography. Whatever magazines "Joe Normal" has under his bed, you can never know. Thus this is a false starting position when you are trying to prove "pornography causes sex offences".

Now I'll use your opening argument "NO, I cannot give you figures on use of pornography by non-offending males"...but if I had to guess, I'd go for over 90%.

And adding in the "masturbates" comment as a dirty little word to try and prove how filthy the perverts are doesn't help your argument...again, it has been shown in studies that even men in normal, healthy sexual relationships still masturbate frequently.

Yes. And I am old enought to remember when compuserve and genie would not allow adult material to be transmitted over thier e-mail servers, or discussed in their forums out of conern for the preservation of family values. Well if you look at who survived the 90's AOL is limping along, true, but where are compuserve and genie. LL wants to put SL in a position to replace the internet. The would like to establish that SL is a common carrier of sorts, then they should not police anything.

In the alternative, if they are a private association of members, then they need not worry about the laws regarding public display of pornography. Ultimately the singnifcance of this issue goes well beyong even what we do in SL. For me it raises serious question about whether my freedom to communicate via an interstante means of commerce is limited or curtailed be the passing of laws in other countries. We may not be there yet, but trust me this is the first step, and it is a big one.

In essence, LL"s action means the laws of australia and holland, among others are compromising my speech. I am not sure that opening those markets is worth that compromise. Once SL becomes known as the "Family values" Virtual world, you are going to gurantee that the competition will succeed with the "Adult virtual world," where people can, and do expect to act like adults.

Hmm - still think its bad press more than laws that cuased this decision. Laws were a afterthought reason IMO.

I dont think Second Life in its present form will go on to be the next internet. The next internet cant have One company in charge of policy.

I know, but SL is marketed to adults and those who are here under age are still in violation of the TOS. Noone cane, nor does anyone expect, SL to guarantee there are no minors posing as adults. But really, the presumption is, and should be, that people here are adults.

We should not have to compromise our fun just because some minors sneak onto the grid. Besides, controlling the flow of minors on the grid is an LL problem, not a resident problem.

Yeah but the press is going to find a away to poke at the underbelly of SL. SL is a target, if it is not the age players, it would be the goreans, or the furries, or people like me on advocate on going and regular corporal punishment for people whom don't ask questions.

The press is going to sensationalize everything. Yes they will chase a few a way, but face it, SL does not need four million users, so if two million go away, another two million, whomare more tolerant will step up and take thier place. Noone ever lost money catering to the porn business.

This just made me think of a particular incident, and how everyone forgets how subversive our culture has become.

I remember a record released a couple of years ago called "I wanna have sex on the beach"...that may not have been the title...but it was repeated many times during the chorus...and it was one of those vile, "I know it sucks but I can't help humming it" tunes.

And it was played a LOT on radio...with the end result that at a wedding I visited, various small girls, ranging in age I guess from 6 years to 12 years all got up on to the dance floor when it was played, and danced and sang to the track.

True, they had NO idea what they were saying...well, maybe some of the 12 yr olds...but I have to say I found it almost as disturbing as the "Sparkle Motion" scene from Donnie Darko (if you don't know what I'm talking about, rent the film). But it just made me think...how would a pedophile react to this?

Edit: What I meant by the above...in these days of litigation...could a pedophile bring a court action against the maker of the record for sexualising children and thus causing them "mental anguish"? And before you snort and say "how ridiculous!", take a look at some of the cases that HAVE been brought...

Why are we making so much fuss over what two adults do in SL (regardless of what their AV's may appear to be)...whilst still assaulting the ears, eyes and minds of our children in real life with this kind of thing every day?

Mickey, Marianne, Colette-

Griffin / Ledoof- All it takes is to find a few sexual predators that aren't into pornography to disprove the theory. Personally, I think that if the porn 'worked' for them, they wouldn't have to resort to criminal activity.


Jake- "Once SL becomes known as the "Family values" Virtual world"

Sorry, that gets a big chuckle out of me. When SL has a competitor, they may try the 'family values' angle. (Don't drink and park! Accidents make people!)

Anyway... the day that "SL" becomes "The Family Values" virtual world will be after the neo-cons use their position of power to enforce morality, backed by secret police and closed morality tribunals. U.S. citizens will be treated as 'enemy combatants' and vanished off the streets.

Or, put another way: I strongly doubt we will see a company offering a 3d MMO that is MORE permissive than SecondLife anytime in the next decade, after which... who knows.

I wonder how many people posting in this thread also believe Harry Potter's books are a way to turn young kids onto satanism?

there is a deranged group of "bible thumpers" for everything it doesnt mean its true yet it still exists

LL is not banning ageplay they are covering their butts and asking for ads to be removed depicting child porn just like they request that graphical "regular" porn/bdsm ads not be posted

People are thinking to deep and trying to twist this stuff into something its not so everyone burn their harry potter books and put all their kids in chastity belts with locks on them and have fun restricting everything before it happens or whatever

also we should likely burn all the witches and wizards at the stakewhile we are at it along with a bunch of other things like arrest all the "drug pushers" and "hookers" course none of them exist in real world but its going to give someone the idea so lets do it just to be safe shall we?

/shrug

come on ifyour gonna do it do it right

I think you have that the wrong way around. My view is that predators offend, porn or no porn. "Normal" people can look at porn, and NOT feel the need to go and offend.

People (by which I mean, "moral crusaders" try to imply that it's the porn that's bad, because the predators have it. The predators have cars too, which they may drive to carry out their attacks...but since no one has a moral objection to cars, that gets ignored. The porn (like the cars) is largely irrelevant, but it's back to the same old argument - I don't like it, so I want it banned.

One of the problems was an AV advertising herself as a preteen prostitute. To anyone. That isn't about "a top making their partner happy". And the person who responds is paying money to someone who looks underage and pretends to be in RL as well.

There are some good arguments re: the consenting adults and function of roleplay and I assume they come from people with some experience which I don't have.

There seems to be some skipping over the sexual pleasure of the act and more about the submissive power dynamic...but isn't sexual gratification from a visual image a form of behavior mod...a pleasure reward connected to certain visual stimulae?

Since I get the urge to order a real pizza when I see the ad on TV around dinner time, wouldn't this reinforced behavior be more likely to be then acted out in RL?

And since RL peds use pornography to normalize sex acts between adults and children, to condition their prey and since free accounts are not age verfied, how does anyone know that the child Av is not a child in life?

I would think that these are important questions and enough to call a halt to ageplay. For those of yu who are participating in this with consenting adults and not practicing it in RL, perhaps you could let the rest of us know how you would police it in your community, what safeguards are in place. For example, are there "no payment on file" people participating?

And if even one child gets hurt with this, is it the freedom you are experiencing worth it?

THAT is what I take issue with on these threads.

Enforcing morality is... well, it's immoral! *grin*

Cool. So let's ban cars, too, because I hear at least one kid has been hit by a car.

Sorry, I'm burnt out on the whole "we must save the children" banner when often it's only a cover for enforce one view of morality on others.

No banner; I actually care about children.

I don't think this about cars really tho...just visual sex acts between what appears to be an adult and a child. With the assumption that it is being used as pornography is...to get off.

Connecting sexual pleasure with children..that is the problem.

No doubt you think you've cornered the market on that.

you dont but punishing an entire gaming population because of the fact that there might be is not the solution either

your trying to say or justify the lets stop it before it happens thing but the fact is you neither know who is underage nor do you know who is actualy a pedophile

so why not just get down to it and ban us all because you never know now you do

its an extreme reaction to overprotect that is almost as bad as the actual problem itself. I liken it to parents that sensor everything their kids take in. Then the kids grow up and go out into the real world not knowing what waits around the corner and get robbed and raped by some guy due to plan old ignorance of the goings on around them. This is the same type of idea that is going on here accept that you are trying to protect someone that may or may not even exist in front of you from something that may or may not exist

I believe they call it paranoia hehe and the bottom line is that going to extremes to try to avoid it all is not the solution either. The solution lies with linden labs putting in an age verification system. They will likely never ever get rid of adults who are abnormal in some way because that would require the ability to mind read which they dont have so the only action that can be taken is to get rid of the actual kids which we will have to wait for them to do.

If someone wants to go around screaming hey i am a kid in RL report them as a minor and be done with it, but I would say that someone saying this is likely an adult saying this in an effort to ruffle everyone's feathers and look it worked.

Again how many kids do you know would actualy want to emulte being a kid on an adult grid? As a few you will find out the answer pretty quick the answer is that they want to emulate an adult on an adult grid to be all "grown up" one thing kids hate is being kids after a certain age

Again a lot of this stuff needs to be left in the hands of the server owners which is in fact linden labs to hash out their policies and work on enforcing them otherwise its just a bunch of people taking stabs at in the dark hoping they might actually hit the target its kinda ridiculous and I think that people have to stop and think what they look like because quite honestly its an over reaction. Your taking the "line em all up and shoot em all" approach in a hope that the guilty party is in there amongst the innocents you just killed .. i mean uh well not comment..

( i dunno about anyone else but my mother beat into my head never talk to strangers and tried to expose me to the "evils' of the world and let me watch the new and even gasp murder films and unsensord tv that existed it taught me about what could be out there instead of me growing up and entering adult hood not knowing about what could be out there. I got to see the negative side of things had I not seen it I would not have known they existed. Bottom line she tried to prepare me not shelter me and so do many parents )

Well, I guess we can all agree that in RL, they are really cracking down on peds so this may be moot in the future anyway and be a question of freedom, self expression and exploration in the Virtual World because it has been eliminated in the RL.

I'm sure we can all agree to that anyway.

And even if limiting it in SL helps that in some way, that's a good thing.

Thanks for the interesting conversation...

Drive safely (lol)

Paedophilia



It's that simple


and also illegal in Europe

:bangs head:

Thanks for delurking for that profound post. Maybe next time, you could read the thread, first.