Lindens define ageplay!

But how many of those 11,000 hits turned out to be typos?

Quite a few, but not enough for me to claim all the glory

LOL almost all of secondlife might be offensive to some. that is the way of the internet.

So what? You complained that the ageplay policy didn't allow you to warn other players that your content might be offensive to them. I pointed out that a general warning would suffice for many and that there was no need to be explicit. The fact that there are numerous things that may be offensive to people is completely irrevelant. If you are truly concerned about not offending someone, as opposed to, say, feeling grief for not being able to advertise, you need not worry! You have done your due diligence by giving a general warning about offenseive content. If someone chooses to ignore your warning about offensive content, regardless of how general or vague, and then becomes offended by your content, that's not your fault, but theirs.

You're right. My apologies.

Is the note card really unclear when it states that "the depiction of sexual activity involving minors" is unacceptable?

I'm passing along all of your feedback.

hehe its a Forums first, I think, a Linden Necropost


It sounds like the current Linden Policy is there is no Sexual content allowed that involves Virtual Sex and avatars who apear to be minors.

At the time of this note it was allowed if kept hushed. But it was the same definition.

The confusion in the note and in the latest Blog entries is they do not spell out "Avatars who appear to be minors"

BUT it just says "involving minors" - allowing an alternate interpretation that it might only involve people who are RL minors on the grid.

I *THINK* both Avatars who appear to be minors and virtual avatars that are controlled by minors involved in any sexual activity in SL are banned.



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This thread also dates back to when those who play children Avatars didnt know if they were outlawed too. That question has been answered I beleive.

Thank you, Heretic. Could you also pass this along please? They need to define whether or not they consider the avatar to be a depiction.

*nods to Colette* Because by the ToS, it's against the rules for minors to be on the grid, so it is assumed that two adults are behind the avatars engaged in the act. So, this probably should be clarified too. Even if it's to say, "It does not matter whether or not the people behind the keyboards are adults, we don't want this happening.. period."

Also, this doesn't say whether or not it covers regular age play, which has no sex involved.

Re: Heretic Linden

How clear could the notecard possibly be if there's 20-page threads discussing it? Many people are guessing what is and isn't allowed, and other people have different guesses. It seems like clarifying the policy would be useful.

Yeah - becuase until we do, the "Two RL adults should be able to do what they want with their avatars" argument will never really fade

Becuase it will then be "Well LL SAYS you cant .. sorry."

Right now its "Well LL MOST LIKELY means you cant .. so probably sorry"

Yes it is very unclear. LL needs to define what a minor is. Are you talking about a RL minor and an adult? Are you talking about a resident who declares themself to be a roleplay minor on their profile even though they are an adult in real life? Are you talking about a short person having sex with a taller person? Are you talking about a female who likes to wear childish clothes?

I could go on and on but I think you get the message.

The sentence above is clear. The issues come up with the notecard en toto, particularly in light of current issues surrounding the issue.

I've addressed a lot of this is an e-mail I passed to Chadrick and Robin last week, and it is the basis for my Metaverse Messenger op ed this week. Essentially, there is a lot of gray space overall, and clear guidelines would *definitely* be appreciated.

What is "sexual activity" in this context? Obviously, adult/child and/or child/child sexual congress, but is a hug? Is a kiss? Can a child avatar sneak into daddy or mommy's bed (to sleep, no sexual act at all) because he or she is scared? With the notion that one can cam into my house at night and file an AR when I hug my parents good night, this becomes an issue.

Can my parents say they love me? Can someone say I'm "so cute they wanna just eat me all up?" Can a parent or child continue to use their avatar if it has a first name of, say, "sexy," or "nudie" - knowing that they may have chosen the name their first day in SL and had no idea where their Second Lives would lead?

Can a child avatar at any time be seen nude in-world? Can they take baths, or go "skinny dipping" this Summer? I am, of course, referring to on their own land, in private, and again, knowing that someone could cam in.

Can a vendor sell kid skins, even non-anatomical ones (both major kid skin vendors sell only "doll" (no lower genitals) skins or ones with panties as part of the skin layer)? Can these be advertised for sale?

What is a child avatar? What constitutes such? To what end can or must a child avatar appear or state such? How does this apply to non-human avatars: if a "cat" is 3' 9" and is sexually active with a "dragon" (considering size alone) might they be accused of such? How abour elves, vampires, etc? There *are* child avatars within those sub communities.

What is meant my "age assertion?" Does a child avatar *have* to opt into Age Verification? Are we required to state in our profiles that we are a given age or over the age of consent. Can we list an RP age? The notecard is *not* clear if this applies simply to sexual ageplay, or to all forms of child avatars in-world.

I know that, from the other side of things, one sees the German video, sees how abhorrent the actions are in it, and acts accordingly to ban it. That video is, IMO, is a pretty clear example of what it meant by this policy.

At the same time, there are those of us who are RPing kids, in a wholly non-sexual manner, who are left fully wondering just what the policy is, what it will be tomorrow, will we even be *allowed* tomorrow, and so on. There is also tons of concern that someone could simply AR all kid avvies, out of suspicion, or could easily "trump up" whatever it is they see based on their own possibly ill-founded suspicions. How can we be adequately represented?

I hope this makes sense, Heretic. If you need any clarification or wish further discussion, please feel free to drop me a line here or in-world. I would also be glad to serve to help work on policy on this, to make sure that "one of us" is a part of the process. Not like folks dun tell kids what to do all the time.

Aside: please, please please: "ageplay" is multifaceted. Not all ageplayers are involved in sexual ageplay. In fact, it seems that very vew are such. Can the term be appendedas such to avoid some confusion?

Mari

That part is perfectly clear if you're talking about avatars. However I was watching a documentary sometime back about guys who like to dress up in nappies, now to me they looked like complete tits but this is ageplay, so would that be banned too?

haha don't worry about it, Heretic. For one thing the Forums represent only an alarmist, complaint-happy minority of the SL community.

Everyone paying attention and not looking for something to crucify LL over know what the situation is. A great deal of SL residents are either happy about the ban or don't care since they don't get turned on by children.

Either way you should know by now that you can't win with these people!

What it says about the depiction, as you quoted, is that it might be against the law in some areas and that the SL community finds it to be broadly offensive. That particular sentence doesn't say anything at all about what is or is not allowed by Linden Labs, and there are many other subject areas that fit those descriptions with no hint of being banned (e.g. Gor).

When gets to describing what's prohibited, it just says that advertising, promotions, or descriptions aren't allowed. The word description, in this context, is an odd choice, way too vague. The others, by their very presence, imply that the actual activity, done visually but in a manner that's as private as SL allows, is not banned. As pointed out, the large number of notes triggered by the notecard are a pretty good indicator of the confusion.

The text of the blog entry is a bit more straightforward, but not without its problems. But I believe the main issue here is about the grey areas, something that's going to be difficult to nail down regardless, and which your lawyers may not even want you to nail down. I have some ideas, including some areas suitable for compromise, but I hesitate to add to an already huge set of threads.

YAY! More insults from SqueezOne, speaking for others, yet again!

Thanks, SqueezeOne! I hadn't realized that anyone looking for clarification was a paedophile...

Umm.. I don't recall bashing LL for the move. I just like knowing the rules so I can follow them.

The notecard actually didn't ban sexual ageplay.. it just didn't allow the advertising of it in any form. But this this recent blog about that trumped up German 'documentary' or whatever it was, if they had clarified things then, they'd have had a lot less problems now. This is the only point on which I will 'bash' the Lindens.. if they'd listen to the user base, it would help them in the long run.

So, what's wrong with asking for a clear, precise policy? Myself, I'd rather not find myself banned from SL just because one of my avatar 'shapes' is short and shapely. Or just short, period. I'd also like to not be banned for selling children's clothing in SL.

i didn't read the whole thread just a few pages and i know the meeting was very confusing with everyone out of turn..i pretty much only read her responses then went up to the question asked to see what she was answering..it helped to keep a somewhat clear view from all the people trying to parade and protest or the ones that were confused..



It's pretty clear what they are asking..I really don't see all the confusion..If you put aside all the technical tid bits and look at the basics of what is actually being said it's not so confusing..Nothing promoting it will be allowed..Pretty much keep it in im's if you are looking for age play..No profile promotion of it had kind of sent the meaning home that and no buisness will be allowed to promote..
Thier main concern is that age play or child sex is not put out there to find in any way..
That it is an underground if you want to do it..If they see a profile of a person saying they are 10 years old they are going to check to see if that person is ten years old.
They didn't say anything about adults roleplaying a ten year old and getting banned..They just don't want a ten year old having sex on sl and they sure don't want them having sex with adults and they don't want them in adult areas.
They want it out of sight to not attract in any way..
I didn't hear one thing about those that want to do it of legal age not being able to do it..
Thier concern is keeping it out of site of children..
Since you go into pg and mature sims your profile won't be allowed to promote age play either..They did not say you couldn't say you were ten years old but i wouldn't put on there i am ten years old and love to have sex with adults..
They want it invisible..that doesn't mean you cannot do the things it just means keep it in the bedroom and not on the streets so to speak..not one texture of it was pretty ckear to me..

No wonder the Lindens don't talk to us inworld. That transcript was nightmare-ish. We might get more of them to come talk to us if we acted civil during meetings.

Well unless you're selling junior size BDSM gear then you shouldn't worry. Note the "engaged in sexual activity" parts of just about everything the Lindens have posted about this subject.

While I do think some of the LL postings on this subject get a little bit wordy and can be confusing if you're not paying attention to the whole situation, I really don't think it's that hard to figure out!

I don't think you understand the issue as well as you think




It is forbidden for a child and adult avatar to have sex, no matter what age the actual people playing them are.

Haha yeah, maybe if people didn't treat them like Fast Food Employees that may or may not have spit in your burger then they'd be more willing to help and deal with you people!!

Hug a Linden! I know I do every night!

Very true.

Transcripts I see of Lindens and Residents in world are pretty evil. And it guarantees that no one will get the answers they needed.

Much more productive would be for people to agree to a set of easily defined questions and ask them in an orderly manner so the Linden in question can remain calm and unhurried and give a good answer.

according to what i read in there they were only concerned with the children..where does it say anything about two adults roleplaying in age play in an adult sim being forbidden??
i must have missed that in all the confusion. and yes i think i have a good grasp of her answers..i may have gotten names mixed up on some of the questions but in that mess of people screaming i'm suprized i got out of it as much as i did lol.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dear Second Life Resident:

Linden Lab would like to inform you that your land or
business is not in compliance with Second Life's Community
Standards. The depiction of sexual activity involving minors
may violate real-world laws in some areas, and the Second
Life community as a whole has made it clear that it views
such behavior to be broadly offensive. Linden Lab chooses
not to allow the advertising or promotion of age play or
related activities in any public forum -- including in-world
textures, classified ads, the Second Life forums, or parcel
descriptions.

Advertisements, promotions, or descriptions of such
activities must be removed to avoid account sanctions. Any
account asserting an age that does not meet Second Life's
minimum age of eligibility will be closed.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Robin Linden: "if people go underground or try to get around the situation then we'll add to the list"

Robin Linden: "there are several countries in the EU where the virtual depiction of sex with minors is taken as actual child pornography"

Robin Linden: "This is a *criminal* offense."

How do you do italics in here? Yes you did do well to get so much out of it, trying to follow those transcripts gives me a headache!