So why are kids on Zindra?

Ephraim Kappler roars laughing: thank you, Marianne, that image will haunt my every waking hour for the coming week.

/me needs pix.

Not that I don't believe it. It just sounds funny.

A RL child can stand on the sidewalk outside a RL strip club, bar, or sex store because RL eyes can not peer through the walls and every RL adult who happens to walk past is not automatically considered to be a potential pedophile.

Because there's really no such thing as "walls" in SL and because so many people are fixated on the idea that SL is place where every one is ultimately after sex and surely the more you deny it the more it must be true... well... the dynamic in SL tends to be a LOT different than in RL.

Jezebella - Zindra is the least likely place for a real life child to be, in Second Life.

Peering through the walls by camming past them, is still not child sexual activity.

I thought the Puritans had quit burning centuries ago.

I thought about a somewhat challenging situation last night, in light of all the log in troubles. Bear this one out for me.

Last night, my home region was offline for much of the day and evening. On the plus side I had logged out in Shermerville last night, else I would have been logging inworld to an offline sim. This would have sent me to a random Info Hub in Second Life. Recently activated (and taking in people & bots whose regions were offline) was the Info Hubs in Arapaima and Oritz.

So in theory -- and I don't think this is a stretch of the imagination nor a straw man -- I could have been sent, wearing my gummi bear pajamas -- to the middle of the Oritz Info Hub where (and this is the "stretch of the imagination" part) someone could have stripped down, started playin' with themselves, and started snapping photos. Possibly even before my screen stopped saying "Logging in..." and started saying "Your clothing is still downloading."

So should I change into an adult shape before I log out every night *just in case* my region is down the next day and I possibly get sent to an adult Info Hub?

FWIW, in my best reading of the TOS, it would be the adult avatar who would be at risk for a suspension in this case. Again, Info Hubs are branded for no nudity and no sexual activity -- and this is regardless of what form an avatar might happen to be in at the time.

Oh and before I forget to add this, I am not advocating that child avatars start setting their home locations to Oritz or Arapaima or, for that matter, tromping around Zindra at all. I'm not trying to seek out the loopholes in the rules on some mad quest to somehow legitimize sexual ageplay in Second Life. Simply pointing out a situation which could make it infeasible for LL to set out a blanket ban on a type of avatar for the entire land mass.

http://www.nowpublic.com/youtube_pulls_video_of_giant_penis_attack_in_second_life (Possibly NSFW photo)

An RL child can't get into Zindra in the first place, and a person with a toon kid avatar doesn't need to stay a kid if they want to see porn. The issue is not what the toon kid avatar can see, the issue is the depiction of situations that might be construed as child pornography. That's why the restriction is based on the proximity of the toon kid avatar to sexual content. A photograph of a kid in an empty street isn't child pornography. A photograph of the inside of a club with a note saying "and there's a kid outside!" isn't child pornography.

Unless someone is "getting their freak on" where you are looking at the freak and the kid in the same scene, set, and setting, what is the problem?

1. There's signs all over the infohubs in Zindra saying "No freak-getting-on". Well, not in those words, but you know what I mean. If someone's getting their freak on in an infohub in Zindra they're AR-able.

2. I thought there was a restriction on what infohubs people would be sent to as part of the change.

I believe if your content preferences are set to see Adult content, you may be sent to an Adult infohub. I was more than once last night.

Did't I say that in my post? I thought I had.

Edit: I did. My point was more on the "Ban kid avvies from all of Zindra" argument. Sorry I wasn't clear enough.



I would imagine that the "change" would be that they have to be adult verified.

Yeah, there was some discussion of sending people to random telehubs that either a) match the maturity rating of the sim you logged/crashed out of, or b) match your stated maturity preferences.

But as with all things, the workability of this depends on a) LL having actually done it and not just been blowing a bunch of smoke, b) LL not having screwed it up, and c) grid borkiness not equally borking whatever it is that routes avatars to an (in theory, appropriate) infohub.

With all that, I don't view Mari's hypothetical scenario as particularly improbable.

I think it's *fairly* improbable, but still worth considering.

Having worked on drafting such zoning laws, let me correct and clarify a bit.

In the US, obscenity and child pornography can be banned, but most pornography cannot. Therefore you cannot simply ban adult content establishments without running into First Amendment issues. Nevertheless, it is possible to craft such zoning laws as to make it impractical - typically by putting it into zones where the land is far more valuable when used in other ways.

In my state, sidewalks and streets are normally publicly owned thoroughfares or, at times, publicly owned easements. Either way, it is simply illegal for a municipality to have a zoning law that would flat out prohibit kids from using that thoroughfare. You might have loitering statutes that could limit it, there are curfew laws (currently being challenged in the courts), you could even prohibit a sidewalk to make it too dangerous or inconvenient to use as a pedestrian. You could also set things up so that the streets and sidewalks in a brand new subdivision remain in private hands, and they can do what they want. However, you can't simply ban kids from walking down a public street. I suppose it's possible that other states would permit it, but I've never heard such of a thing.

I know of one sleazy adult store that was on the main drag of a college city, next to plenty of other stores and restaurants. While someone might look suspiciously on a kid or teen loitering outside it, there certainly were no laws against it. Being a busy street, kids walked past it all the time. An even better example is Provincetown, which has, on its main street, a well-kept sex shop, a gay leather shop, a head shop, maybe one or two more essentially adult stores, along with ice cream and candy shops, restaurants, clothing stores, a game store, bookstores, antique shops etc. On summer days, the street is full of families with kids (including plenty of same-sex parents), teens and preteens with skateboards, along with adults of various persuasions. No doubt there are some people who consider the mixture of straight and gay people on the street, with kids present, to be hell on earth, but to me, it's a superb example of the way life should be.

My point was that someone "getting their freak on" in an adult infohub is no more acceptable than in any other infohub. So this scenario is not made any more likely by the existence of Zindra.

Aw Mari!

I've been away for a bit, so have missed what's been going on and have been playing catch-up ... the accusations flying around about you are horrible! Shame on those people!

IMO you did absolutely nothing wrong in taking up the invitation, along with other avatars of all sorts, to come and explore an EMPTY continent.

If people really are going round Zindra trying to entrap child avs then that is really dangerous - to themselves, to ANYBODY else they happen to catch in their screenshots (kid, adult, dragon ... whatever ... involved in your ugly campaign or not), and to the future of SL itself. I have now seen a screenshot of the incident in question, with that giant comedy penis and I have to say, I'd think it was hilarious if it were not for this handful of people determined to make something huge and scandalous out of a daft prank at an opening party. It's those people who should get help - those people who are dragging the name of SL through the mud.

The only point I agree with the vigilantes on is this: LL need to clarify the ToS and CS of adult regions FAST, but not about whether kid avs are allowed there or not. I think (and it's possible I have missed some important points) that it boils down to whether sexual content will be allowed in the open or just behind walls (as it is currently on mature regions). If it's the former, then yeah, once it's officially open for people to move content in, I can see a problem with kid avs having access, but if, as I suspect, adult is going to be the same as mature is at the moment, then the current ToS on kid avs is sufficient and there is no more reason to keep them from Zindra than there is to keep them from mature land.

I'd also like to know the status of infohubs/welcome areas (whatever that monorail station is supposed to be) ... even if sexual content is to be allowed in the open on Zindra, does that really extend to Linden-owned land?

ETA: I see the infohub issue has occurred to others as well

Come on, LL, pull your thumbs out and help clear up this fiasco before it gets any more ugly.

ETA2: There's some nasty posts on that slxchange (or whatever it's called this week) forum - I'm not going there again.

Right, agreed. An Info Hub is an Info Hub as far as what is allowed/disallowed.

Sexual content will be allowed outside walls in the adult continent, IF the landwoner allows it. If the landowner says "no, my parcel is PG except for the upstairs room where I sell my sex beds" then you can't even strip naked on that parcel.

It's really quite clear, except for the people trying to muddy the waters.

Not saying you're wrong, but do we have that in writing anywhere yet?

Here's something more probable, I think. Do you check ratings of stores before teleporting in? I don't. I will make sure I'm dressed before shopping and logging out, but I otherwise don't pay much attention to where I'm going. I can't imagine a kid av having to check every time they do a search for a shirt or table as to whether or not they'll be welcome. I've always assumed that stores are inherently PG. Even XCite has a separate changing room, because they don't want people trying out their parts in public.

I did the grid-wide Easter Egg hunt a couple of months ago. I must admit that I was surprised that some of the stores on the list were adult. It didn't create trouble (in spite of my name, Kidd is not a kid), but I did feel a bit nervous when I got to the store that was part of a female-avs only area, with the store being the exception.

youtube has the clips. that, i am sorry to say is how i found out about secondlife, watching the dance offs between WoW and sl.

Am I the only one who thinks that between:

a) someone who wants to wander around naked in an adult av anywhere in a continent, without worrying about what the local parcel rules may be, and without worrying about kid avs being there;

and

b) someone who always wears a kid av, and wants to go shopping at a variety of clothing-only stores for a shirt or blouse without worrying about which continent the store is on;

it's the first person who's behavior is more questionable?

err why yes Mr Krasner i do believe you may have hit upon something there

anyone who automatically thinks zomg! kid ava! they are sexxoring here! needs to really have their own moral compass checked. along with a few other things.

Marianne....I hope this episode does not devalue your SL experience.

For those who are enjoying your experiences here....I suggest that you not read the thread at Xstreet. It's very disheartening to see that play out, the way it is.

Most of the concepts that I value in the SL experience....are being butchered and slaughtered there, by three or four individuals. Human behavior at it's worst display.

Yes...it's important to stay involved in issues that you feel important to you....and speak up for them....but not at all cost. And souls are being slaughtered there at all cost, by the actions of those three or four individuals. If their agenda is to protect real children....you certainly cannot detect that in their actions.

One of the images that I saw, involving one of the crusaders, and further defined by the crusader, as to what the activity was......will do far more damage across the board......than a few child avs attending an official event in a yet to be developed and yet to be populated sim.

It was very poor judgment, total disregard and lack of respect for the exact issue that they crusade for. That is the kind of individual that the world needs protection from.

then you should AR the threads with the threats, and send them along to LL. i have not been over to XStreet, nor after reading some of the veiled threats here, do i want to. but if they are that bad , then by all means turn them in to LL.

I gave up on that thread several pages back, and have missed much of the stuff there. I was also told of the MP3, but have not listened. I saw some of the stuff on that other site too. Crazy stuff.

I'm hanging in there, though the other day was definitely not fun. I've been through some of this stuff before, though not so directly pointed at me. I know another kid who was at the preview who has been having a very hard time dealing with all the anger. Such is life in the SL dramasphere, I suppose.