What is the Community?

cocoanut and jake are not alts of prokofy.

they are much more reasonable.

(but cocoanut and jake, i wouldn't hold my breath for anyone to believe me.)

Coco,

What is divisive about terms like FIC/techi wiki, etc... are the fact that they were introduced in conjunction with a blanket statement about those groups that are being pigeonholed by the terms. They were always commented on as a group think that is somehow holding SL back/doing some negative thing/getting special privilige/etc. They were an attempt to label older players, or highly technical players, or some other group in some negative fashion. There have been other terms before them - we had our prim whores, our land barons, etc., but these particular terms targetted a large swath of the SL population.

Racist stereotypes have enough truth in them that you can recognize some aspects of members of that community in them (the cheap Jew, the drug dealing Latino, effeminate gay etc..), it doesn't make the way the steroetypes are used to paint a group of people any less insulting or derisive simply because there is an air of truth to them. The terms are long lived and powerful not because they struck some profound nerve but because the groups that they were used against did what is often done in the face of stereotypes/slurs - coopt the word for yourself and it ultimately has no power.

you do realized you're trying to defend stereotyping, when you're saying it's not indefensible?

I don't think Prokofy's poll is biased at all - way too much intent is being read into the questions, the very crime Prokofy is often guilty of. The SL community is all of us on a high level, and within this community you have many smaller subsets of communities that often blur, shift, and change. As with RL society, people do rise to leadership positions, gain fame, gain notoriety, through achievement, circumstance, etc.

To not acknowledge that in any group you have those who rise to the top of the group is silly. Some people are natural leaders, some people are natural philathropists, some people are quietly part of a team and avoid the spotlight. To deny this is to deny human nature. To deride this as something that needs to be rallied against or something negative about SL is just silly. In any environment, you have people who are well known - being well known, achieving a level of fame, success (however you personally define it), or prestigue is a natural part of life that many people strive for.

I do find it insulting when a blanket statement is made about what people who speak of doing something for the community really mean. No one can speak for someone else or make some sweeping judgement that they are just being politically correct or what their motives are. So often they are just projecting their own ugly cynicism.

Much of what I do online and offline has never been for my benefit, and it is certainly not for political correctness. It often amazes me the amount of negativity that surrounds the simple act of giving back to something you love - you must have some ulterior motive. Ultimately, for those who it is most important to be a proactive part of a community and give back to it, they often simply do so without fanfare or expected recognition. When that recognition comes, often in the simplest and purest form of an unexpected "thank you", it means more than the naysayers could ever begin to comprehend.

Yep, and that is the big irony here.

Friendship biased folks defending their friend regardless of what he says.

What I find most striking is that they will post pages of stuff against those who engage Prokofy in his own game, yet they never tell Prokofy to lay off, only those who push back against this stereotyping. It's quite transparent and to that end, I find it incredibly baffling.

It's like trying to speak to Liz Taylor about Michael Jackson.

Yet Stone, I think in some ways they are useful terms and have come to reflect the internal diolgue that goes on in Sl. FIC has become a point of sillyness, as has aimee's defacto leadership of it! (And we will say nothing about Ingrids secret plan to usurp leadership)! I am on to you all! I have names!

Yet the notion that a handful of players shape and define the community is an interestig a worthwhile discussion, whether its true or not.

I agree that Tekkiwikkiati was coined in a a derisive manner. Yet now that I stand as an advocate for the distribution of free stuff, and as a builder of an insane build i realize that I am Tekkiwikkiati and I embrace and reclaim the term! However the notion of whether SL is an enviroment that exists for the creator or the consumer lies at the heart of what sort of PLayers SL would like to attract. And there has been, in connection with the stipend issue a lively and informative debate on how farr LL should go to subsidize players, which ultimately may, or may not impact the value of the linden.

In short there are teeth to some of Prok's Ideas, real teeth, and sold points. As with anyone else, some times the bling and bluster needs to be sifted through rather than responded to.

But sometimes the criticism's go to far and are unwarranted. Like the ongoing reference to prokofy as a she. Prok has expressed his maleness in the forums and has stated his wish to be indetified as male. In truth, whether or not this is true is immaterial, I feel every player deserves the respect of the gender they assert. To me all the references to Prokofy as "she" are just spiteful disrespect for the wishes of another member of the community. I am certain half the "shes" in SL are in fact "hes" but we afford them the respect of thier gender. Also I think there was an ongoing psychological evaluation (often done by people I number among my friends) that was excessively critical.

To me, community means everyone, including those we don't agree with. Individually we may dispise the person, but there is some measure of respect we own to everymember of the community, simply because they are. In the military it is summed up as "you salute the rank and not the man." thus I voice my opposition to the "the community" condemning anyone-which is the basis for my opposition to the organized shunning. I also oppose personal attacks of any form, because to me these things rod someone of their core dignity (though in the heat of argument sometimes this things come out).

I do not see terms like FIC or Tekki-wikkiati as personal attacks. And as Coco stated, perhaps they wound because of a kernel of truth. I don't know, but In my book calling someone FIC is nowhere near the same level as calling them A paranoid narcissist who needs mental help.

Nolan, Cristiano, Chip, Stoneself, I really find it a crashing bore (and I'll bet others do, too) that you are using this thread to vent your hostilities to me personally, to continue to engage in the derisive, snotty, baiting game of outing RL information which is a TOS violation, and just generally behaving badly. This thread is supposed to be a bigger discussion than what you are turning it into.

But perhaps it is instructive when you pile up and do that because then we can see that it is *you* doing that, not me.

I continue to find the terms FIC, tekkie-wiki, fuck-you hedonism, etc. to be useful analytical tools in defining and discussiong *behaviour in groups* -- group think. But note that I dn't use them half as much as you do! It isn't meant to vilify individuals or stereotype. It's just a report and a commentary. There's no need to make so much of it, really.



Since most of these same four people hounding me said the same thing, I'll just answer Stoneself. This idea of the "we" who "don't need another troll" is very telling.

When people begin to say "we" too carelessly and arrogantly in America, there's a standard slang repartee, "Whaddya mean 'we,' white man?" In Russia, when someone gets going with that imperious we, the slang repartee is "We, Nicholas the Second."

Who is we?

If there is a we, and you're it, and I'm not, well, OK, then let's have that established.

You can't divide a community that doesn't exist, or divide something that isn't divided, or divide something that is divided when all you do is report on it. That's what I'm trying to get you to see. Most of your sense of hurt and outrage and indignation comes from pulling the cloak of "we" and "the community" around yourself, and I'm just here to say --no, it's bigger than that.

Howling to Lindens, abuse-reporting up a storm, screaming on forums, constantly answering every post, stomping out every fire -- I see see that as just a heavy repressive atmosphere that prevents growth, change, adaptation, new ideas and improvements.

The idea that I "whine about everything" and "never do anything" is totally absurd. You've just never visited my communities in the game, you have never seen how hard I work, you just have no idea of a tenth of what I do. But I don't need to toot my own horn about this, I need to just be free to do this without harassment and incitement to hatred.

Prokofy,

Before making yet another blanket statement, note I did not vent any hostilities toward you - in fact I commented on your poll not being biased. I was simply responding to why the terms FIC/techi wikki are in fact divisive, which was in response to Coco. I am not using this as an opportunity to vent against you, so please do not direct this at me - I made my own comments about my thoughts on community that have nothing whatsoever to do with you.

i did include you in that "we". it helps communication if you actually read what i write.

i agree there are teeth. but those teeth get lost in the clutter prokofy puts around it.i would consider taking this kind of criticism to heart when i see you dress prokofy down in public for similar behavior. as far as i'm concerned, it distorts reality too much to call prokofy a "he". her desires in this are in conflict with my own. when i'm talking about this kind of stuff, i'm talking to the person running the avatar, not the avatar.they are stereotyping, and they were used derisively. that's pretty attacking.

after a certain point respect is earned and lost.

everyone gets treated as a person, and for the most part people start out as a "respectable person", but a person is responsible for their action and thus whether or not they keep the appelation "respectable."

just because you're a member of the community doesn't mean you get a free ride in the social venue.

I am waiting for that day. When can we expect that?

I really think that you were probably planning on waiting until this poll accumulated the numbers you wanted, and then you would use it as a platform to "prove" one of your "points" again.

The fact that no one touched this poll for nearly a day after it was created speaks volumes.

The fact you made a poll to ask what the "community" is also speaks volumes. It's quite telling that the first two check boxes carry 76% of the total votes. I see the other options as smoke and mirrors. That's my opinion, you won't change it, and I have every right to it.

nolan is actually waiting for that day. he and i didn't get along very well for a while.

Um, I'm waiting for the day when you and others cease your hatred and incitement of me, Nolan. That's what was intended by that phrase.

No, I had no intentions and evil plots as you imagine, I just wanted to see what people would put.

I honestly just try to find out the facts of how people see themselves and how they feel.

If they didn't touch it for a day they could have been on a long Memorial Day weekend or just reluctant to post to something that might become mired in controversy, hmmm?

The other boxes aren't smoke and mirrors but just an attempt to make a poll. I'm not a scientist. Let someone who is a professional sociologist make a poll.

Maybe I don't need quite the "dressing down" that you imagine, Stoneself?

You're really out of line with your disclosure of RL information. It violates the TOS. We have clear interpretations and read-outs on that.

You don't get to violate it just because you are you and you have some feeling of "reality" or "justice" you want to impose on others.

If you know something about an avatar in SL that is "at odds" or "different" or "unlike" what their RL person is...how would you know?

Would you know it from unlawful disclosure of the person's RL? IF it is not on their profile? As was stated?

So who are you to keep violently re-introducing that TOS violation into the mix?

Second Life is run on the principle -- indeed the right, under the TOS -- that you make an anonymous avatar, and it is intact, and taken as what it is, if you don't write about anything of your RL on your profile.

This principle ought to be sacrosanct.

What you're saying is that no, you get to out people, you get to decide what is to be disclosed about them, you get to taunt them if you like and deride them, and you get to lord it over them and scream about your own sense of "reality" being violated and you even get to complain to Lindens about this "reality disconnect". Huh?

In other words, you are saying that YOU get to define who is in the community, and who is not, who is safe, and who is not, who is protected, and who is not, who gets to have a Second Life, and who does not.

My God, that's awful.

I'm done posting on this thread. I find that while a few other players see these types of horrible injustices, most people can't take the time, including Lindens. And all that happens is that I get threats of being permanently banned, and even of losing my land.

No thanks, it's not worth it. Have the discussion without me. I began it in good faith, to try to determine whether this community is bigger, broader, and more tolerant than it sometimes seems. I think you've answered my question.

i seem to recall this information from you and your posts. i could be mistaken. what you reveal in world and in the forums is not verboten.

Let me go over it for the 100th time.

I do not disclose my RL information in-world, on my blog, in forums, to you, to anyone. That's your hallucination.

Whatever you think you think you heard about this is wrong. It's just rumours, it's just gossip, it's just evil, malicious tongue-wagging.

Your notion that what someone says "in world" is "not verboten" is wrong. Read all of Pathfinder's posts on this.

If something is not on the in-world Second Life profile under First Life, it is not to be posted on the forums.

Here's what my First Life profile says in the game: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".

Got it?

Prokofy,

On the issue of posting what you hear in world being wrong. your justification for calling a player's gender into question was simply because you had heard others in world state she was this or that. I am curious why it is fine for you to post anywhere based upon a rumor from in world that you were simply repeating, based upon your own oft repeated statements that what is not in the profile is off limits, period.

Um . . . I didn't get treated as a person, much less a respectable person.

I agree to disagree with you on the divisiveness of terms such as "FIC" and "f-u hedonism" and "techi-wicky," Stoneself.

Dogged if I can ever see what is so terrible about these terms though - they simply describe trends, habits, and behaviors. And if I were ever called "techi-wicki" I would consider myself honored.

And certainly, Cristiano, I can see no analogy to racist slurs. FIC is more like being called "illuminati" or "the beautiful people" or "the jet set" - which we all know exist. I'm sure Paris Hilton wouldn't mind being called something like that. But one would object to a racist slur.

And as for this continual calling of an avatar a she when the person appears as a he, I really, really resent that. I think that is terribly harrassing and should have long since stopped. Is there no hope for any of us? Or are well all to have our personal lives divulged (truthfully or wrongly) whenever anyone wishes?

coco

Excuse me, but on the issue of this other player, from the *very first day* I landed I heard this, and heard it hundreds of times after that, and no one ever ever ever said it was somehow "a secret" or "not to be mentioned". So, there really is no analogy. And furthermore, the minute this was pointed out to me, I withdrew the post, and ceased discussing it for ever more. Indeed, I urged you to remove the post, because ahem I was banned from your forums (for no violation that I could see nor anyone else) and couldn't fix it.

I HARDLY think that my having once made a mistake ON YOUR FORUMS, NOT HERE, is relevant to these forums, and even if you can dredge up some kind of thing like that on these forums, and no doubt you have armies of staff working with a microscope over time to do it, what of it? If I make a mistake and disclose something I didn't realize was off-limits, I go back to my post, I delete it, I don't return to it.

Now that contrasts SHARPLY with your behaviour, hmmm? Honestly, I haven't seen such hypocrisy in a long time, Cristiano. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Prokofy,

I am calling a spade a spade here. You casually commented on someone's rumored gender - it doesn't matter whether it was here or in my forums, since you cry the same foul no matter where it is about you. The hypocrisy is all your own here. The relevance is you are calling out someone and telling them that what someone tells them in world is off limits if it is not in the profile. How sacred that is, blah blah blah. Hypocrite? Yes, you definitely are.

You knew exactly what you were doing when you made the statement about her - you had no proof of it, only speculation, yet you repeated a rumor that is neither true, nor in her profile, you never spoke to her about it. That makes you a first class hypocrite. I have not speculated on your gender or RL information. I heard rumors about your gender from TSO players that I know in SL, but I never repeated or posted this, however you repeated a rumor very clearly. Hundreds of times? I have been in SL for a hell of a lot longer and know her quite well, and I had never once heard that rumor. You can whine all you want that I "published it" because I allow people to use a forum, but people are responsbile for their own actions and words. Try a mirror because your cracks and your hypocrisy are reflected clearly and it is perfectly relevant to the admonishment you gave Stoneself.

You are right, I have never seen such hypocrisy either, and it is all you baby.

I’ve never seen such a spoiled and feted inner-core technocratic/creative intelligentsia elite anywhere in my life except perhaps for the Soviet Union LOL
/120/d9/31559/5.html#post328078

the fact that such paranoid and cynical thinking even crossed my mind was a direct result of reading these forums and seeing the feted and cosseted elite do their thing, sometimes with tacit Linden support.
/120/d9/31559/6.html#post328211

The tone and content of virtually all the posts in this thread do more than I can every do to eloquently display for all to see how the culture of fuck-you hedonism among the inner feted elite has prevailed.
/120/d9/31559/9.html#post328689

The inner feted elite and the oligarchs have always benefited from the system and will go on benefiting, but who loses? New, creative types who tried to break into the event business who aren't wealthy and not mentor-statused.
/130/cb/32564/1.html#post338612

I don't think they should get incubated, feted, cossetted, grandfathered, or really get any special treatment at all.
/120/e3/32821/2.html#post343713

What I saw was a company that feted that inner elite to the point where they became an obstacle to the game's own growth
/140/ec/32834/2.html#post343769

I suppose the inner feted elite have so long perpetuated the myth that all events are sexay avatar spitting money ball events of low quality that they aren't prepared to distinguish any more or to grant that content creation is content creation, whether or not you "like" the content. They are willing to concede an endless tyranny of subjectivity about "I get to do what I want on my land and fuck you" but they don't want to grant that endless subjectivity to content creation -- unless it's their own, hahaha.
/130/1c/32665/3.html#post345715

and yet contains an elite cadre of players, feted by the game company because it tailors everything to them, who for whatever set of RL or SL reasons, can work the levers of the game or create content or do whatever it is they can do to *lord it over other players*.
/120/b9/32950/2.html#post345958

There's still a small cadre of the feted elite who cling to the notion of freedom uber alles with in-your-face zealotry, and pretend to defy common sense.
/120/f9/33017/4.html#post346858

Another feature of the wiki is an attitude of self-satisfied smugness.
/120/c5/44085/2.html#post467016

You're saying they sacrifice, earn chump change, and these selfless types are engaged in a permanent wiki, for the Good of SL, and again, we all must genuflect at Their Great Sacrifice and Benevolence. I say: baloney.
/130/cb/32564/3.html#post340254

this is just a partial list. the complete list is quite long.
being compared to the stifling era of the soviet union isn't very flattering.

Cristiano,

I'm now forced to conclude that derailing threads that are interesting and thought-provoking, and making sure they are closed, isn't just a forum sport, but a deliberate policy.

I honestly don't get why you can dredge up some "sin" of mine on your forums, but when I protest that your forums have libeled me with the WRONG RL information about the crime of plagiarism committed not by me, but someone with the same RL name, then that is considered "inappropriate" and "offlimits".

Who runs these forums, Cristiano, you or the Lindens?




I did nothing of the sort. I honestly believed this was common knowledge, I'd heard it numerous times, and it had been stated so frequently, by so many, that it didn't seem to be questioned.



Hypocrite. Let others do the dirty work of libeling me and posting RL information on your forums, in violation of *your own* TOS then hide behind your fake persona as an "impartial editor". Bleh.




Um, yeah, whatever, I'm rubber and you're glue.

Cristiano, have you no shame?

I asked what the Community is. You're claiming you're it, you can set the standards for it even off-site, on your own blog, and do WTF you want on it, and even castigate me for a fake "crime" committed in innocence, by accident, and withdrawn, on your forums, and dredge it up here, when you know FULL WELL, that for months, a whole platoon of forum jackals have harried and harried me with outing of RL information, here on the forums, in the game, in the private messages, in my RL e-mail -- including with wishes for my death.

Happy now?

I've seen the face of "the community". It's not a pretty sight. Think about that, and how you appear to others.

I was responding to your statements about the persistence of the terms being so strong because there is some truth in them, and comparing that to the argument about any stereotype - there is a kernel of truth in many things, it doesn't make it right to make a blanket statement about any group based on perception of a few.

BTW, "the beautiful people" is also commonly used as a derisive statement to paint a group of good looking people as shallow/privileged. FIC has taken on a playful label because it was jeered until it was an inside joke - but it started out trying to paint a particular group as being bad for SL, and that their time was over because new players were here. We will have to agree to disagree on this one - techi wikki was especially derisive in the way it was used to label the technically adept as insular assholes who care nothing about anything but making cool things to impress the Lindens. Neither term was ever used as a compliment or harmless label.

Prokofy,

The fact that you cry so loudly about what was done to you makes what you did to her even more hypocritical and ironic. You can keep labelling it as a mistake, but you are a lot more shewd than that. Anyone who is so hypersensitive about the distinction about their RL vs SL identities would not just post something and go "oops, my bad" and feign innocence and get away with it.

I did not derail this thread - you chastised Stoneself for something you have done - I asked why it is fine for you to repeat a rumor you heard in world. You dance around and claim it to be a mistake - yes, it was a mistake to post that about her, and the epitome of hypocrisy after what was done to you. Two wrongs a right do not make.