I don.t get it, and they certainly don't

Uh... you theoretically CAN read... I suggest you reread my post as you obviously missed the point... Oh wait. You merely RESTATED my point. Dude.. get a grip.

As for sowing seeds of suspicion.. I didn't sow any seeds. I stated a fact. You think that what I am doing with alts is something other people are not doing? Think again. It's a virtual world... with virtual realities. What you think you know is all illusion and the people you think you know in this SL - unless you actually watch them type anything AND have met/know them in real life - are not necessarily the people you think they are.

As for friends banding together --- there is getting together and there is "ganging up" to defend or attack. I see more of the latter here in SL than I have ever seen anywhere else at any time.

So.... go get some reading lessons, then some logic lessons, then return to your SL/RL whatever.

Sorry Sens, I guess you can count me ignorant then. Right or Wrong, I seem to do this as well. Though I do not limit it to just people I know or am friends with. Hell, I know a gazzillion people in SL. I may like *most* of them, but that doesn't mean I consider them friends. Though I do respect those who are worthy of being respected. My own reasons.

At any rate, yes, I too am guilty of becoming defensive from the get go when someone starts the first part of their post with with insults. Hell, even my close friends often get an earful when they do so. I feel this way mainly because I personally understand the not wanting to listen to a person if they have to result to insults the *very first thing they say* in response to a situation. I don't care if you are brand new or ancient.. And yes, even I am guilty of doing so and deserved to not be taken seriously because of it. I'll concede to that.

Brought to you by SL's own "Existential Nincompoop"... which leads one to wonder if it was from the perspective of an existentialist of just the ramblings of a nincompoop.

I bet you can guess where my money is on this issue.

Sounds like a personal problem, as you are the only one I hear lamenting this. It couldn't have anything to do with how you conduct yourself could it?

ROFLMAO .. please.. you're killing me. C'mon now... you are going to make me split my sides... Take pity on an ol dman and don't make me laugh this hard.

Laughing at examples of your own faulty dialectic is a step in the right direction.

I was laughing at the self-described nincompoop.

Oh. I see, you are running out of steam, so now it's time to ride out my own tongue-in-cheek nickname for myself for all it's worth. Have fun entertaining yourself while you avoid the substance of any contrary points.

Nolan, you’re wise to suggest “waiting it out”. Another friend has suggested it’s better just to make good examples of architecture and put them around SL, then people can begin to understand what’s good. There’s another thread under “building” about the “lexicon of architecture” that takes up these aesthetic and form/function issues for SL, not to impose them, but to make visual experiments to see what "works" and what people like and use versus what is admired by stylists. But this thread actually isn’t about my idea or anybody’s idea of aesthetics being imposed. I'ts about how conflicts emerge and how to solve them. It’s also about large obstructive/performance-reduction/hideous type of build that anybody can agree on. I’m not sure why this is so difficult to get across. I see plenty of builds that don’t float my boat but I don’t negrate the people or even get into a conversation with them. That’s not what this is about – I’m talking about gigantism and obstructionism.

To me King Kong – if he happens to be a meter away from my land, which he isn’t! – begins to border on that kind of overly aggressive viewblocker problem but even with him, I haven’t negrated his creator or owner nor have I asked them to move him or do a thing about him. The appearance of King Kong is merely another wake-up call to the Lindens that they've got to think about zoning some residential versus experimental sims or player conflicts will boom. Far from asking to take down King Kong, I’ve a) raised the broader issue of whether he’s appropriate for people seeking residences, so that some other accommodation should be found for them and b) whether the people who put him out there intend to have something equally big and menacing meters away from my property *merely so people can decide to move if they are unhappy*.

Anshe is right that people who crusade against land barons style themselves as revolutionaries but they’ve all shopped in the same malls and hung out in the same clubs created by “land barons” so they are hypocrites.

Ardith, it’s hardly necessary to “take a step back” to see I’m the target of derision, duh. And your comments about the “mundane, banal” flavor of the homes in my development just make me shrug. I don’t happen to agree with you nor do the people who made or who buy the homes but that’s not what this thread is really about. And the architects in this development don't need this area to be showcased, they have far more fabulous buildings in other sims where they are working and their reputation speaks for itself. If anything, as a newbie in the game and in the role of developing, there's a lot I have to learn about how you subdivide and manage a sim like this and I look forward to learning from my mistakes and rectifying them there and in new projects. Pahoa also used the tactic of slamming the builds in this development and its customers rather than understanding what was at issue – a query about her intentions so that people could move, and the larger issue about what to do about zoning.

Maybe you don’t find residential housing tracts that look like RL very aesthetic or appealing, but guess what, people want it. There will be more of them wanting this than King Kong, trust me on this – or at least they’ll visit King Kong like they visit Disney World but they want to live with the picket fence. It would be irresponsible of me to start a residential development, especially one with commons, and not take that into account. I am well aware when you take action, you open yourself up to slams. I’d be interested to see what you would make if you bought a sim and put in not “mundane and banal” but your idea of what is cool.

Shadow, once again, your friend Pahoa didn’t just say “no” so that it was understandable to back off and that was that. She slammed my development and my customer with unsubstantiated comments then took her frustrations public to this forum, referring to a barely-transparent “anonymous” neighbor. That *hardly* sounds like the delicate calla lily being "harassed" that you’d like to portray her as, she instead sounds like a very feisty lady able to publicly stick to her guns and probably not in need of all your tilting at windmills. The hectoring tone you’ve adopted is a good display of the self-appointed, know-it-all attitude one finds among this core group of old players referred to here, and I thank you for providing a classic illustration of it.

Alicia, we could debate whether there’s corporate socialism in America in another thread, my point there was only that IRL community groups fight back and don’t simply roll over and say “noblesse obligence” and “eminent domain” when Trump or the UN or any large entity tries to put up a tower in their backyard. Once again, I’m not advocating a Nazi building commission or town council that dishes out zoning permits in SL, since I believe top-down player-based zoning would degenerate into precisely the tyranny you describe. I do think that groups of people organized spontaneously, however, might make group purchases of sims, pool their resources, especially their tier, and create some very fine communities for themselves without having to stick one person with tier. The Lindens would enable such community grassroots effort if they could find some way to zone groups of sims as residential versus business or experimental.

Ingrid, earlier in the thread we already put to rest the idea that buying a private island sim is a solution. They are too buggy, they’re off the grid – go read all the other threads about island problems to see why no one in their right mind would ever buy a private island sim now and their prices are dropping. And P.S. I don’t have anxiety about neighbours LOL, and in fact King Kong is the least of my problems. It’s just an experiment, in a game, to see if you can more or less secure some views and more or less put down some examples of good residential architecture that people will actually live in. That’s it!

Chip, I’m in quest of a democratic, community-wide consensus about what constitutes a big/bad/obstructionist/ugly build and probing whether it is possible to take group action when such events occur. That’s quite different than imposing my own aesthetic. I continue to believe that such a consensus can be found, although the path to it will be difficult. I do cheer on creative endeavors. I’ve spent many months organizing events that provide awards for good architecture, newbie architecture, sculpture, innovative architecture, landscaping/waterfalls, etc. It’s too bad you didn’t see any of this. You’re absolutely right that patience is the best counsel for the problem of a neighbour’s poor design choices and that’s exactly the route I’m following on builds going up that make me unhappy – let them do their thing, and see if it lasts. But I still advocate trying to find solutions to another problem, which isn’t about neighbours’ aesthetics, it’s about the big/bad/ugly build meant to grief, lag, annoy, and there I think more can be done.

David, I haven’t told my customers a thing other than that it’s a residential community and that we make the best attempt we can to secure freedom from ugly and laggy builds at least on that sim. Naturally, any one of them could sell out and their lot into a big ugly glowing square. But you have to start somewhere rather than endlessly bitching and that’s exactly what I’m doing. And once again, a person asking to be informed so they can move is hardly a person imposing a “right to know” or a year-long calendar of building notices on the surrounding area so there’s no need to exaggerate. You’re right that I made too sweeping a generalization about all older players, and I thank all those who have taken time as volunteers in live help or at tutorials to help, and for all their kindnesses. I am talking about a certain kind of core group, not all and I should clarify that.

Korg, I’m so glad and grateful you had the courage to express your agreement that there is indeed a fairly cliquish and observedly insular oldbie network. I don’t know if their bias is toward traditional liberalism or if their bias is to the faux-liberal, pedestrian pagan hedonism one finds in Internet games, but I do know that they are arch conservatives about letting go the hammerlock they have on SL, and they are willing to send posses out on the forums to hunt and hog-tie anyone who challenges them. You said the oldbies are threatened by the game’s growth and the clash of cultures and that’s exactly what I’ve raised in this and other threads and I am quite aware I’ll be pilloried for it. But all they are doing is killing the messenger. It’s not me who imposed a new and growing demand in SL for quiet residential space free of wacky or ugly builds and it’s not me who set the goal of widening and growing the game so many non-tekkie and not-creative, consumer types begin to come into it. Linden Labs might have been content to keep their game as an eternal small beta test – a laboratory as it’s called – for innovative design and cutting-edge experimental game technology. They could have kept all those tekkies afloat forever on their $500 LL a week and their "incubator" and dwell awards. But instead, they decided to be a game business -- a mass entertainment business. The reason they call them "massive multiplayer games" is because they are, er, massive and multiplayer, not just a few beta testers. They decided to get into the server “virtual estate” business with their land-auction approach and professed desire to increase to a million customers and serve as the WWW of games. So deal with it.

I guess to contrast with TSO and other games I’ve seen like ATITD, yes, I’ve never seen such a spoiled and feted inner-core technocratic/creative intelligentsia elite anywhere in my life except perhaps for the Soviet Union LOL. I alternately marvel at the Swedish Stockholm Syndrome I see among long-time players with huge investments in time and money (they never stand up to get better service/servers/game-play mechanics) – and I grow more cynical as I see the various formal and informal reward systems that help keep alive this insular elite. I’m willing to bet that one of the major obstacles LL will face in growth is how to step over or around this hardcore elite which it has itself created.

I made my points. You choose not to respond to THEM.
As for "tongue in cheek nicknames".... umm.. have you considered mine? If not, do so now.

I knew that you could.

I can read quite well thank you. I didn't restate your point, but merely demonstrated that you had none.

As for grips, is there anything in particular I should be gripping?




Oh..what facts. I sure didn't see many in your post. But lots of opinions. And you know what they say about opinions...



/GASP! No way. Second Life is virtual and people use alts? Liar!!



Well, since you have no idea what I think I know, then that statement is clearly misinformation and more rhetoric to make yourself sound wise and experienced. *yawns*

Guess what, even if you DO meet them in RL, they still might not be the people you think they are.



Really? So ganging up would be sharing and expressing similar opinions? Or debunking opposing opinions? Not sure what would be the difference in your mind as to ganging up and sharing a viewpoint/opinion. Is there a handbook I can read?

And if this is the worst ganging up you've ever seen, all I can say is you must not get out much, either on the internet or in RL. This is very typical of most forums, and actually friendlier than many. And politics and newscasts and general media tend to gang up worse, or at least gang up on more important matters.



Hehe..weak Korg...very very weak. You really should think about that vacation.

P.S. And you using your alts to spy, as you imply, is sad and pitiful, but whatever floats your boat. (Poetic sentence eh?)

After finally reading the whole thread, I would also like to share my 2 cents worth.
In my personal opinion, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen many builds that could be considered eyesores and they don't bother me as long as the do not cause excessive lag, stream particles unto my land or cause any other annoyance to the sim or unto my land borders. I wouldn't mind seeing a King Kong on my neighbor's land (my tastes differ from that person who said that she wouldn't like to see it). I wouldn't neg rate a build I found "ugly" because I understand how other people (including the creator) could find it beautiful. In fact, I have seen many creations listed on the classifieds and seen people's comments on how beautiful it looks and I personally thought that it was "ugly". That's what individuality is about... we have different views/perspectives as to what beauty entails and we should respect each other's opinions (even if we don't agree with them). This is the same reason why I wouldn't/haven't neg-rated builds that I do not find beautiful and I understand how rating a new player's build negatively while they are experimenting and still learning how to build, could discourage them from learning and moving on to another enviroment. While learning how to build I lived in a giant Moogle, in a pink castle (which I personally wasn't too happy with, but I got many comments from players that found it cute), in a box-shape tower and many other builds that could be considered eyesores, but many players enjoyed them and so did I.

One of my concerns with the statements made on this thread deal with what has been said about cliques, favoritism, etc. I acknowledge that there are certain players that stick together, but just because a player is a "newbie" or an "oldie" doesn't mean that they will choose to side with the older players or the newer players. There have been many arguments on the forums in which older players have disagreed on issues (many of them loathe each other), yet we still manage to move on regardless on who sided with who. I can understand how people's friendships can influence people's opinions, since we can judge a situation with how familiar we are with certain players (e.g. I am friends with Francis and if she were to get into an arguement/discussion with another player, I would most likely side with her, not only because of my friendship with her, but because I know what she is capable of). Even though many people have friendships and cliques, they aren't afraid to speak up if they disagree with said friends or cliques and/or if they believe that they are wrong (this has happened a lot in the forums).

As for the situation that started this thread, maybe the best solution would be to agree to disagree and use the land tools that have been given to us (banning, muting, etc.) to avoid any further confrontation, if no "happy medium" can be reached.

P.S. One final note, the SL Community is ever-changing and some people change their builds as often as they change their avatar's underwear, so there is no guarantee that you will always have a perfect sunset view or a beautiful mansion on your neighbor's land... sometimes we end up with pink castles for a view.

It's only as complicated as you make it, and Prokofy, in my opinion, you and Korg are reading into things far too much. I do appreciate that you do not try to demean people and actually debate, although you are very long winded at times and make me read so much!

I guess I have to ask you if you understand that SL was once a MUCH smaller game with just a few hundred active players and a VERY tiny grid? It only stands to reason that there is a remnant of that old group still in place. Does that mean we control things and strongarm Linden Labs or other players? Not in my mind. The existence of this remnant is unavoidable due to the particular evolution of this online environment. Because you are unhappy about what your neighbors rightfully choose to build on their land and they don't want to honor your request to comply with your desires AND they happen to be oldbies does not mean that there is some ruling aristocracy of olbies conspiring to control the grid.

Two of my neihgbors are newer players and I am not thrilled with have my ENTIRE view blocked by boxes, does that mean I can claim there is a conspiracy of newbies to make my life miserable?

Interesting points Korg, but I disagree with your central premise. You and prokofy both attribute certain traits of the SL community to some kind of old boy network. We can all agree on "effect" and what's concretely observable... that the community tends to slant towards being liberal and that there are things that have evolved over time to be seen as cultural norms within SL... but we disagree on the "cause." Your theory depends on things that aren't directly observable and are therefore assumptions. Unless you care to be specific about your alt adventures I'm going to discount your claims as a thin attempt to lend credence to your statements without having to qualify them. If people look at players who've been around for a long time as some sort of ego driven clique that shuns newer people then they're bestowing qualities that I don't believe are actually true in the sense that you imply (as in lording over the community). It's a skewed observation based on paranoid assumption. What you attribute to favoritism and exclusivity, I attribute to the limitations of my short term memory. I can only keep so many names in my head and it stands to reason that people who've been around a long time will have worked their way into my long term memory. If you ask me to name a builder, or a tattoo artist, or a scripter, I'm far more likely to pull out a name that I remember than one I don't. There are people who've been here a month or two that are on that list if they've made a strong impression on me. You're definitely on it Korg, hehe. I probably spend more time in world talking to new-ish people than I do interacting with other old timers and my respect for people isn't based on the length of time someone's been around. I can only speak for myself since I'm not a psychic but I imagine it's the same for most "old timers." As for the liberal slant, that's more logically attributed to the liberal slant common to the creative types that SL appeals to and not social pressure. If you polled everyone who's joined in the last month I bet they'd slant liberal so while your observations are legitimate, your assumptions about the causes are pretty flawed. I'm certainly not picking on Prokofy because he's new, or because I leap to the defense of anyone who's been here since Beta. I simply disagree with his point of view, and yours. If there's a consensus among older players about issues like this it's because they've always been issues and we've hashed them out dozens of times already. Don't confuse familiarity with collusion.

You and Nolan seem to have keyed in on this... so I will quote yours...

Uh... spy? Hah. My "alts" predate me as Korg. My opinions of the groups and sub-groups and their respective actions/mini-cultures was pretty much developed prior to Korg ever coming into existence. Anyway, what would there be to spy on if you/they are all as honest as you seem to imply. You have nothing to hide, right? So what would I gain from spying, as you put it.

You guys are paranoid.

/120/d9/31559/4.html#post327991

I did. I only became mired in your BS once again when you started to become partisanally and pointedly abrasive yet again, after claiming earlier in this thread that you were on niether side.

I see a difference in our nicknames to the extent that I don't really think I am a nincompoop and mine is really a play on the pic of Albert sticking his tongue out, you on the other hand seem to think you are curmudgeon, as per your dictionary's definition of course, a definition you failed to ever post suprisingly (or unsuprisingly) enough.

We're paranoid, yet you utilize alts to study some imaginary collusive effort by groups and sub-groups? Right, got it.

I haven't been here that much longer than you have Prokofy, why am I not seeing this? I've met people who you would probably lump into the "fetid inner core" of SL and most often they have been friendly, helpful and all around nice. Some have even become friends of mine. I haven't been to one class ever, everything I learned, I learned from "oldbies" and Toast Bard who landed in SL two weeks before me.

I don't get it.

Chip.. somewhat intersting points yet you do the same thing you accuse me of - argue based on assumptions.

Reveal my alts or be discredited as simply attempting to bolster my own argument without evidence? Nice try but that's kinda faulty logic considering the reason some of us have alts is to act/react differently to the same things/people/situations. Thus, by revealing the alt, one defeats the purpose for having the alt in the first place. If I, as Korg, decide to gender-bend and wear a dress - that's one thing. To say that Korg is also "Joe Schmuckatelly avatar" is something different. You either accept that or you don't.

As for oldbies having hashed the liberal philosphy and other things defining the SL community out time and again.... well, isn't that what we are talking about now? The discussion has been reopened and at least a couple of us disagree with the perspective of the "in group" however loose that group might be --- but self-identifying as "oldbies/charter members/whatever" does kinda set up and us/them dichotomy, doesn't it?

Add to that the swarm defense in this thread and I think that Prokofy and I are more than justified in saying that a cliquishness DOES exist. Note that I never said that it was wrong, per se, to be cliquish. But that is the sense of numerous responses.... an apparent defense where, in my case at least, I did not attack that cliquishness, merely gave my perspective on it. If anyone feels attacked, I do not take credit for that. I am entitled ot my opinion and I have the right to express it. YMMV.

As for spending time here(forum) or in-world talking with people, good for you. Guess what? I am completely different in-world as most people who know me there (except for one specific day) are likely to attest. But, that's not a defense of my actions here - merely a statement that perceptions of and experience with people varies based on the situation. In-world, some of the people I have the biggest problems with here are fine people.. but here a few seen to do as I do - only this time with the cliquishness of mob rule/reaction behind their screennames.

As for the cheap psychoanalytic "paranoid" shot.... "I'm going to discount your claims as a thin attempt to lend credence to your statements without having to qualify them..." Pull out a DSM IV/V and then come back and justify it. Otherwise, it's just a hot air accusation, not even a poorly worded argument. That you operate from a different set of core assumptions about people makes your perspective no more valid than anyone else's. My opinion is no more skewed than your own - by your own argument.

Agree with me or not... doesn't affect my game. Here in the forums, my "game" is definitely one thing and it's been misinterpreted by many. In-world, I wouldn't care to "come up against" this Korg either - but that's there and this is here. Real life? That's a third "game", one we will all eventually lose at.

Heh, there's a big difference between a "feted" and a "fetid" inner core (no doubt I'd fall into the latter group...).

And yes, there are cliques in SL. However, I think it's a grave overstatement to imply that all the oldbies are in some secret group that is out to demean, debase and de-... well, um, treat newbs crappy. It just ain't so.

By the way, Ingrid... make more shoes, please! I love your high heels.

Did you even bother to read your own drivel before you posted that? Talk about circular argumentation!

Damn you are good for a laugh tonight. You really are. I may not have time/the ability to watch Blazing Saddles like I had planned because I am laughing so hard.

I dunno. You're the one that brought up your alts, so you tell me? What would you gain from it?

If you do not already understand or imagine why a person would like to play an alt, I cannot explain it to you.

The best I can do is to ask, if your clothes did not get soiled by wearing them each day, would you continue to wear the same outfit or not? If not, why not?

/me walks away shaking head in incredulity

No, I don't read. I am blind and I just type.

When one fails to convince someone that they are correct, what other path is there than to accuse them of not reading or being able to read ad infintum?

I justify my abrasiveness due to my nickname and my RL experiences and age. I see conspiracy everywhere I look. I choose respond to "drivel" because it doesn't carry the "weight" of a "butterfly" and means nothing to me. I am inexplicably driven to irrational arguments claiming cronyism on most issues. People can't possibly be thinking and speaking for themselves. Because they happen to agree with each other, it has to be that they are all in on some grand scheme to subvert the interests of newer players.