I don.t get it, and they certainly don't

You can tell by my number of postings that I dont post very often for being here over a year. And very rarely do I start a thread. I tend to be quiet about most things and usually let the real concerned parties battle it out.

This happens to be my battle (started by someone else) and as my friends can tell you, I maybe the quiet one of the group but I never back down from my own battles.

As a lot of you know we (Jazzy Jade Wolf Group) recently moved from Lusk. Part of what compelled us to move after over a year there, was the fact that builds around us virtually cut access to our land from two sides and a third side was the edge of the world.

As these builds began to expand we waited patiently to see the outcome. You see, we do support the fact that it is your land you can do what you want with it. Well, when it got to the point that we felt closed in and knew we would be happier somewhere else, we evaluated what our mission was and what we wanted to accomplish business wise. In short we moved.
During the time this was happening we didnt critisize the builds didnt call names or degrade the missions of others, we respected their freedom to play THEIR game as they saw fit.

So we moved on. We had already built in Eagan to combine our Jade Wolf and Jade Passions stores. I feel it is a build to be proud of. We have received many compliments from our neighbors there.

So now we come to Carlisle. We found a beautiful Island there. We were the second to buy in the sim after it was carved up for resell after the auction. Many of the sims around us were still for sale also.

We (Shad, Crim and I) hung over the Island and talked in voice about how we should buy and what our vision would be. Do we Buy most of the island and risk someone buying the water around it and building on the waterway? Do we buy a potion of the island and as much water around on our end as we can to preserve the waterway? You see we had almost 23K in land allotment available to the group. There was one underlying vision... to build as unobtrusivly as possible and prevent the same thing happening here that we had happen in Lusk.

We opted for preserving the water and as much as we could of the island.

Well, we have been working very hard lately and wanted a break before we built.
So, (as I state in my profile) Carlisle is our playground right now.
We are great fans of Starax's creations. So naturally, we decided to take advantage of the 5000+ unused prims we had and enjoy the sculptures we had before we started building. We began putting out our favorites, right now I believe we have around 8 out.
We also spent a day replacing almost 200 Linden trees one by one with exact replicas on our portion of the island to preserve the beauty.

We have had people stop to admire and comment on the sculptures. If you dont know Starax's work, it ranges from serious to whimsical and sometimes quirky, but always awesome. I believe we have one of the biggest private displays of his work in SL right now.

Ok, so, now that I've laid the background out, if you're still with me thank you.

We come to my battle. Really the groups but I was the one approached so I am addressing it now.

Yesterday I received an IM from a neighbor in the next sim to ask if we would sell our land in the water adjoining theirs. This is a location we have put some sculpture, we made sure it was located so that it would not hinder water traffic.

I inquired as to why they wanted the land. I was told it was to preserve the view and someone they had just sold land to was unhappy with what we had placed there and had requested their money back. This party kept asking what our plans were and said they were concerned given the size of our business, they didnt want a big ugly store there but could live with dolphins.
I explained that we didn't have concrete plans for our build but yes that spot was planned for a display of Starax sculptures.
Well, this person was very insistant that I define our plans. I reiterated that I had told them early on that we were undecided. And I hadnt judged their builds or use of land as they shouldnt mine.

I was told we were obviously some kind of animal lovers and it made them wonder what our plans were. WTH does that mean?

I pointed out I may not agree with their builds and the person complaining was more obtrusive in their build that overhung the water than we were. I was told they had some of the best builders in SL do their builds and I shouldnt trash them
I explained I wasnt trashing the builds but the layout and density.

Well, needless to say I ended the convo saying I think this disscussion is done and if you leave us in peace, we will do the same for you. Cause it boils down to it is our land.

OK my peeve here is...
Why, are some people so narrow minded as to think their vision or what they choose to do with their land should take presidence over others?
Why, after they buy land do they feel they have a right to demand what other earlier buyers around them plan to do with their land?
Who are they to presume what I plan to do with my land is unacceptable? Or, worse yet, presume to know what my plans may be and judge it by that?

When I see what I feel is an ugly or monstrasorous build I may comment on it to my friends, but I never presume to tell the builder or owner that I am qualified to judge them or demand the removal of said build. I recognize the fact that we all pay a fee for our land and are entitled to use it as we see fit.

If it doesnt fit our vision we move on and make sure we cover the bases to ensure we get what we want.

So in short, if you're concerned, get to know your potential neighbors, learn their vision before you buy. If your main concern is resell and you dont take the time, dont complain later and STFU.

OK rant over. TY for listening. I feel much better now getting that off my chest.
< back to the unobtrusive observer.

P

Some people act stupidly sometimes and you can put them on ignore. I just did that to someone today on IRC and I am quite happy with the results.

Dear Pahoa;

As your next door neighbor in Eagan, I'll be the first to say how pleased we were that the Silver Wolf store blended so well into the residential aspect of our neighborhood. You all took your time and thought it out well. I don't even notice a store next to us when at home, and I do spend a lot of time on that property.

We were worried that we would see a large, to the prop line box with flashing particles and spinning things right and left.

What we got was beautiful sculpture while you were building the store, and then a very well layed out, low lag tasteful build next to our cabin.

In sum, we couldn't have asked for better neighbors next to our home, and I hope you all STAY there a long time to help protect OUR property as well as the other homes in our sim.

Oh and yes, we DO in fact walk next door and shop.

Happy New Year!

-Rose

*hugs* Pahoa!! I have rarely heard you vent, so I know this must have really gotten to you. You have many fans and admirers (as does the rest of your business group) and I hope you won't let anyone make you upset for long. You are a great asset to the SL community! *HUGS again*!

I don't know you but in reading this i can feel your obvious pain. It is your land after all and build what you want. The fact that you and your group obviously care about the surrounding area says alot.....wish more people did.

Keep your chin up!

*hands you a cookie*

Ash

I probably know who you talked to and what neighboring land he owns. I have a stake in those plots myself which you can probably figure out by checking the owners of certian buildings in that area.

Personaly, I like your build. A giant gorilla and a group of giant...are those birds or flying horses? I forgot...may not be natural (the theme of the neighboring land), and some people might not like them there, but I think they're very well built and even rather attractive. (Course, I live on an island of artists and I'm used to a sculpture garden in my back and/or front yard).

I've talked to the person about this before when he asked my opinion of it and I hope he realizes that other people will probably share my view...and I hope I'm right, because I'd really love to see his project succeed.

The first thing I see when I login to my land is Pahoa's Eagan store. That store *is* the view from my land.
Bottom line always is, what you do with or on your land is your own business, and if a neighbor doesn't like it, such is life.
That said, I lack sufficient imagination to believe anyone could have complaint with anything this group builds anywhere. Even when the Eagan store was under construction, their time consuming effort to aesthetically blend into the existing neighborhood was delightfully obvious to me and the people I know who live around me. They also happen to be a nice batch of people. They can build anything next to me anytime, and I'll be a happy woman.

(and because I'm trying to prevent a possible flame war that I believe will only hurt both sides, and can be resolved peacefully if both sides are willing to be reasonable)

This is a snapshot of the view from my building in the neighboring sim (adjusted a bit to avoid a tree in the line of sight.)

What do people think of it? Could you stand to look at it once? Could you stand or even enjoy living next to it?

(The cars are a recent addition which the other landowner is claiming were placed to deliberatly annoy him. I do not know if this is true or not but I do think they're a bit much myself. The rest of the picture, I like)

Indeed hehehe. Note that it is Pahoa Jade who has decided to take this discussion public -- which I didn't -- so I'm happy to tell my side of the story. She's presented her side, but it contains exaggerations and fabrications. Let the community discuss it.

I purchased the Ravenglass sim to make it a planned residential community with an effort to protect the views. It seems there is a crying lack of such areas in SL, with many people moaning and groaning that their views are constantly wrecked by ugly builds. Everyone seems paralyzed and powerless in the face of the bad choices of a few, and it seems like it's time to push back. So I've been pushing back in a variety of ways -- raising the issue of ugly builds on the forums, suggesting that the use of negrate might be in order here and there, and also putting my money where my mouth is by attempting a residential development myself. I'm new and I'm learning so I'm happy to hear any criticism about the development decisions. I'm quite aware that my controversial statements about big ugly builds already on the forum have pre-fueled Pahoa's ire, because she assumed the worst -- that I might organize some sort of public condemnation of her build or a collective negrate of her builds which in fact I had absolutely no intension of doing, have never done, and have merely raised as a possible public tool to solve chronic problems in SL.

I first contacted Pahoa very politely to ask her if she'd be willing to sell part of the water around her substantially sized plot with an island and lots of water. Sometimes people are willing to sell patches like that if you don't build on them -- it's on another sim so it really does no good except to protect the view and water access. She then asked why I wished to buy. I said I was contacting her on behalf of an unhappy customer who was wondering if she should move and sell her land back to me because there were now builds in water that she thought mistakenly was Linden water. (I could note that most land owners wouldn't bother to take up an issue like that, much less buy back land from an unhappy customer.)

The builds then consisted of a dolphin, a pegasus, and a hawk grabbing a fisherman. They're not my taste -- they're kitsch and many good architects would recognize them as such, but they aren't obtrusive and indeed, I'd favor freedom of creativity over some kind of heavy zoning restrictions. Knowing that King Kong lurked on the other side of the parcel, however, it was right to ask whether more large builds were coming. My customer didn't really care so much about the animals, but seeing that a business had taken over the parcel, she wanted to know if a big store was going up. Neighbours are such a wild card that it's a reasonable question to ask -- she wanted to know whether to move and sell before wasting time on a build. All of this was merely an inquiry for information purposes -- to help this customer decide what to do. It was no imposition on Pahoa Jade and Jazzy Jade -- merely an inquiry to help a decision-making process.

Instead of just answering "yes, I plan a big store" or "no, it's just those animals," Pahoa accused me of merely wishing to chop up land and sell it at a high price, and of plopping houses down, crowded next to each other. She had absolutely no basis for this claim. And note that Pahoa has lost nothing. She has her freedom and her land and is building exactly what she wishes -- even adding some platforms with cars in the middle of the ocean LOL no doubt out of spite. Meanwhile, I faced the problem of having to buy back from a customer.

She obviously hadn't bothered to read any of the notecards on the property or she'd know that this is not some get-rich-quick scheme. It has a large commons that keeps at least 10,000 acres unsold and preserved, including a large part of the waterfront. Instead of selling off the island immediately and risk having a laggy club or store, I'm trying to keep it in the community, even buying waterway into the next sim to ensure its view. To make it affordable, sure, there are 1024 or 1536 plots so that people can stay within tier zones. No, not all of us can afford to live the lives of the rich and famous players who have been in the game for 2 years selling their high-tech creative wares. Yes, there has to be room for others in the game.

Pahoa next honed in on the nature of my customer's build -- it "jutted out into the water" she said although of course when you sell waterfront land, you have to sell it with water. I'll leave the public to judge whether that customer made a good build or not -- obviously Pahoa doesn't want judgement of her own group's builds but is freely dispensing judgement of others LOL.

There's a larger issue here not specific to Pahoa. I often find that older, richer players feel they have a kind of eminent domain, especially if they are fleeing older, laggier, crowded sims and especially because they have spent years essentially working for free and now want to enjoy more of the fruits of their labours, at least in terms of large land parcels. But the Lindens roll out brand-new sims every week. There's plenty of space. If someone inquires about a purchase or an intention merely to protect their own view, it should be understood as that, and not treated as some kind of intrusive crime. SL is extremely volatile and I often find that people are only too happy to sell their land and move on even when they've just bought.

As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines.

I started Ravenglass as an experiment. If you buy a sim and put in beautiful houses and try to make it affordable, can you protect people's investments? I've bought up surrounding land to protect views, I've watched as all kinds of large hulks have gone up around us. This isn't just my problem, but a public problem and one for the Lindens. Can there be residential sims in which people's investments are protected? The jury is still out. One thing I know is that these issue need PLENTY of democratic, public discussion. Many views and interests need to be taken into account. An accusatory attitude and a haughty sense of eminent domain for the older, wealthier players are not the last word on this story.

I see a basic conflict of interest here that needs to be reviewed. On the one side are older, wealthier players who have spent months -- years -- in a tiny game of 7-10,000 players in a perpetual beta test love fest with the Lindens. They've done a fantastic job of making an interesting and exciting and alluring world. They've unleashed their creativity and put out all kinds of whimsical articles, animations, particles, scripts, and so on. They see SL as a kind of never-ending Neverland. You unleash your imagination -- and away you go. But that's not what the game is for everybody.

But on the other side there's another kind of player base who basically just want a replica of RL. They want quaint homes with realistic vistas with beautiful sunsets. They want to go to their patch of virtual real estate with they cyber honies and be left alone. They don't want lag, lights, particles, malls, clubs -- and even the most creative whimsy -- except when they go visit another sim. There are going to be more and more of those kind of players as the game turns from a beta for 10,000 tekkies into a virtual world serving a million customers. Those millions are not creative tekkies. They are customers -- YOUR customers -- and you have to think of their needs and interests, too. I see the land barons caught between these two groups and hated by everyone, although all they have done is pursued business interests and practices that actually serve the mass taste represented by the second group of RL-realistic type of players.

A possible solution is to zone new sims. They zones can be "residential" or "business" or "entertainment" or "experimental" -- and they have to be clustered because the next sim is always right next to your sim and in your view. When people buy next to an 'experimental' sim -- possibly those are the Linden-subsidized ones -- they know they might see flaming particles and King Kong. When they buy in a residential sim, they know their FPS will not be lagged by a club with strobe lights. Player-based zoning will probably prove unworkable precisely because one player involved in a zoning issue is likely to take personal insult and escalate to a flame war, instead of realizing this is a common problem we all share that can be discussed democratically and publicly with solutions found.

Your customer has no business making such demands.



So what? It is evident you want make money regardless of your neighbors, and are quick to judge others while shielding yourself from criticism.

Excuse me, but in fact Ravenglass was purchased first because it was at auction first. Your purchase followed because it was simply auctioned later -- the public record easily establishes that. But it really doesn't matter. The customer who purchased one lot in Ravenglass had a simple question -- are you going to build big in the water? Because then she could decide to move or not.

*hugs Prokofy*

I think it's great you have raised these issues publicly, even though that wasn't your original intent but I guess your neighbor had to fume.

The picture Elle has displayed looks like a lot of clutter -- too many styles jammed into too much water space, and a King Kong to boot. It's actually an example of how a picture looks worse than the real thing, however, because you can always adjust your draw distance.

The hawk and the fisherman are especially gruesome to look at -- but let's be glad there's no sculpture of entrails on the rocks!

What was once an unspoiled waterway vista where you could sit on your dock and look out to the Linden sea is now filled with kitsch -- I agree. But you should be grateful it's not a huge square laggy club with strobe lights -- it can get worse...it DOES get worse!

There really doesn't seem to be any dispute here. Pahoa has called your development crowded and middle-class, and you've barked at her for being too whimsical in a public space. She's obviously an older, connected player who will get everyone on her side judging from all her *hugs*. Many reading this privately think they actually wouldn't buy land next to King Kong, but because it's Jazzy Jade's King Kong they'll go to the mat!

*Hugs Prokofy again.*

Meanwhile, buyers at Ravenglass know that they have a developer who will not abandon them to the fate of Fay Ray and King Kong, but will try to intercede on behalf of their view concerns.

*Hugs Hugs Hugs Prokofy especially because he is my alt!*

I disagree I think a customer has every right to inquire what is planned so they can make an informed decision. To say a customer has no rights is a rather cavlier attitude, as ultimatley it is the customer that keeps this world going. Without customer the shops would close land would not be bought as there would be no profits. I t does not mean however that the seller is obligated to refund monies unless that was part of the agreement.

Sure, its ok, if a neighbor has a plan. If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them. Things change.

lol you all like to write way too much. but it was worthwhile writing I'll give ya that. I know starax' work and Pahoa's and Shadows. I'm picky, hard to please and generally cranky when it comes building. It must be perfect! I like all the afformentioned people's builds. oh sometimes they're not perfect , but always aesthetically pleasing. Ignore the dumbass.

hehe, I do feel his pain though. he'd really like to have nothing but trees out his window but he doesn't have enough money to buy the land to enforce that. That's where he's coming from, but he's still a chuckle head.

Re: he'd really like to have nothing but trees out his window but he doesn't have enough money to buy the land to enforce that. That's where he's coming from, but he's still a chuckle head.


Hehehe ROFL Buying a whole sim and a lot of the parcels in neighbouring sims means he doesn't have enough money ROLMAO.

Re: "If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them."

Er...Weedy? What part of "impose vision" did you see in this story? I don't see Prokofy imposing any vision, he's instead asking what the neighbor's plans were, full stop. If she is so nervous and skittish that such a merely informative question asked on behalf of a customer sends her into paroxysms of indignation, well, excuse us all for living....

Ummmm....would building a King Kong in the sea perhaps fall into the category of "impose vision"? I dunno....

Ummm



Sounds like an imposition to me.

Re: "Sounds like an imposition to me."

Ummm...how do you figure it was an imposition? A developer is asked to buy back property and makes an inquiry -- that's an imposition?

But King Kong....that's not an imposition?

And we didn't even raise King Kong at all originally.

Have you all been in this game too long?

OMG a GORILLA! I demand my money back! What next? OMFG, a STORE!!!!!

The sky is falling. C. Little

re: "I demand my money back! What next? OMFG, a STORE!!!!!"

Yeah, that's what that customer did, she wanted her money back. She had bought for the view : ) Some people do that, and they value their tier. They'd like to spend $5 or $8 more on top of the subscription, and not buy a black cat in a sack.

People are funny that way.

But then, they don't own stores all over SL so I guess they have a different attitude than the fuck-you eminent domain-my-freedom-uber-alles that many older players have : ).

Idiotic statement. My case in point.



She gave her answer. Clear and simple. You didnt get your way, so you get all pissy and make harsh irrational statements. I understand 100% why she posted here.

For what it's worth, in a land dispute, ownership is king unless you are violating the ToS. Any request you entertain from a neighbor is a courtesy.

Two people moved into Natoma/Clara, and didn't like my land. They gave me grief about it. Wanted to know my plans. Etc. I told them I'm sorry but I'm not interested in whatever it is you want me to be interested in (some "planned community" or something like that).

They seemed to believe they had some right to impose their will on mine, and griefed me heavily with pictures of jackasses and the like. The Lindens seemed to side with them insofar as sending an "official" Linden rep to try and mediate the whole thing by way of getting me to make concessions. In the end I simply said that if I'm not violating the ToS, leave me alone.

And that is exactly what happened.

You want to lay down the law, buy a sim. Otherwise anything goes, within the confines of the ToS. You may not like "that attitude", or whatever, but that's just hard cheese in the semi-working world that is SL. Anything else is a waste of breath.

Funny how a neighbour's simple inquiry about plans, or suggestion to join in something perhaps more low-impact gets transmogrified into "an imposition of will" by the me-generation, spoiled sandbox set in SL.

Sounds more like YOU are the one imposing your will merely because you bought land, with not a thought in your head about being a good neighbour. The Lindens were right to try to mediate -- but they can't spend their lives doing that.

Yes, the fuck-all attitude is really at a heart of a lot of these disputes. Efforts an initial polite inquiries, efforts to gather information, efforts to suggest alternatives are all greated as "impositions of will" by these hedonistic fuck-you liberals in SL.

This is not a game that is going to have a million customers.



Um, I did buy a sim, duh. In fact, I bought MORE than a sim, more like a sim and a HALF for the sake of protecting customers' views.

It's never enough, especially given the prevailing attitude you so well represent.

Guess you're continuing to read her one-sided and distorted story here. Anyone could check the conversation logs I guess.

Far from ME making harsh irrational judgements. SHE was the one who jumped to a conclusion that I was some cut-throat land baron pillaging land, plopping down houses, and trying to make a huge killling off a development. Nothing could be further from the truth, if she just read more about the project and saw that it has a completely different ethical basis.

She then began a slam on our community, a slam on the houses, and a slam on this individual customer who innocently started this whole episode merely by inquiring if there was any way to clear the view, purchase the water, or see if worse was to come down the road.

She kept the conversation going and going. There was no "getting my way" that I was seeking and nothing I wanted from her. I inquired about water for sale. It wasn't. I then asked about plans -- was King Kong on the horizon? And she got huffy and started a tirade. She began a critique of everything adjacent to her water although we didn't begin with any critique of her stuff -- which, as I've noted, are deemed "tacky" by those with a greater sense of aesthetics.

We wanted information about plans to settle a business problem -- move or buy back land. She escalated it into a flame on the spot, and took it to forums.

So we're pushing back. We're not afraid : )