I don.t get it, and they certainly don't

I've thought about this for five minutes now and I've been forced to conclude that the reason I see this differently than you is that I'm a bitter and cynical dhrama queen with no life, resentful and angry because I can't realize my creative ideas within the existing game tools which are too balky and hard to learn for non-tekkies and I don't have any social skills.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, but I can't give you that satisfaction -- I know this is the interpretation that you and others might well like to impose on me -- but I really do think it is more than that, and it isn't "about me".

First, the "fetid inner core" isn't some consistent solid thing. Some days the uber elite behave nicely and help you and other days they are smug and insular and unapproachable and snub you, sometimes this happens even within one individual. It's a set of behavior patterns and the point isn't to single out any one individual. And may I be so bold as to suggest that the reason they don't appear this way to you is because you worked hard to master some design and buildings skills, you worked hard to get approval and recognition, and now you fit in with some of these elites, they accepted you and give you first-class treatment, and now don't see the invisible glass wall between the design elites and the consumers. There is a rite of passage to which the old design/tekkie elite subject newcomers and some make the grade and some don't. You tried to make the grade and got in, and I never tried, so I'm simply in a different position to cast a little bit more of a critical eye on this elite.

And to pre-empt -- yes, the smug know-it-all-elite say in reply to this comment, well, I, too, must work hard to master the game technology and become either a tekkie or a designer, or else I should STFU. They say that unless you can script and build and design you should STFU -- buy their wares and STFU.

And THAT my friend, is EXACTLY the attitude I'm railing against. Why should you have to become a member of an insular tekkie or creative elite to enjoy the frontiers and possibilities of this virtual world? Or why should you STFU and become an obedient consumer to the tekkie elite's wares? I simply have to reject that assumption. You shouldn't have to be able to stick two prims together to enjoy this game, and people shouldn't tell you to STFU and get out of the game or go back to some lesser game just because you aren't an aspiring tekkie or design elite. There has to be another way to live in this world, and let me suggest, Ingrid, that this way is about YOUR CUSTOMERS. And these CUSTOMERS who will BUY STUFF from you are not going to be tekkie and design elites who "don't see" the glass wall. They will be put off and feel shunned unless there is some awareness and respect that this world can't just be about tekkie and design elites.

Hmm...Well let me think about it for 10 more minutes Ingrid and I know I will be able to convey these truths because I know I'm really on to something here that came about as a result of a series of epiphanies. Maybe it was the moment when I was struggling to keep entertained a group of 20 people on my lot who had come for a town meeting and the radio box didn't work. I kept IM'ing Lindens frantically, and also found it didn't work even for some others, both newbies and celebrated oldbies. I just never got the thing fixed and the Lindens just shrugged, didn't attempt to reimburse me for my failed event, or even say they were sorry publicly for the many radio boxes that didn't work for Cory Linden's Town Hall Meeting. Nobody even stood up to complain about that rash of failed radio boxes on the forums! Amazing! But then I found one radio box was working on a long-established celebrated player's lot, and I had to wonder if the Lindens made sure that person's radio box was working because of the special internal relationship. Naturally that's unlikely to be the case, but the fact that such paranoid and cynical thinking even crossed my mind was a direct result of reading these forums and seeing the feted and cosseted elite do their thing, sometimes with tacit Linden support.

What I see again and again is this kind of wise-mentor let-me-tell-you-how-it-has-to-be approach from many of these elite players with tremendous skills and relationships with Lindens who feel they own the place. These people are benign when you are up close to them, they are benign when they are your neighbours or your friends who help you learn new skills or send you a gift pack, they are benign when they assess you and take you into their ranks. But taken as a group, they present a formidable wall to people with different needs and different cultures than them. Korg got it.

Oh, that would be fine Korg, had you given these reasons for your initial argument. However you did not. You used the existence of your alts and your observations made through their employment to bolster your claim that their is some heirarchy within SL made up of oldbies.

You just don't get it do you?

a) You are not the building police, not a Linden and not the owner of the land in question and its NONE of your business, even lesser, the right to harrass people about it. The broader issue is dealing with self appointed Zealots like you who think they have control over that which they don't own.

b) Equally as big? equally as meanacing? Think about your neighbors for a minute having a self rightous, name calling, arrogant, wannabe building inspector next door persistantly harrasing them over a LEGAL build. Its the reason why this thread was started in the first place and why you continue to bury yourself in your own verbal diarrhea. You don't give a rat's ass about anyone but yourself and your half baked ideals.

You spew alot of crap about setting examples for younger players. Pathetic example you are. Ignoring the TOS to get your way, making harsh unfounded judgments, name calling, sterotyping are your methods. You know nothing about resolution. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. Take your punk attitude elsewhere. Nobody is buying into it. If people do things out of spite, its because you earned it.

Nope You jumped to the conclusion that I did it to spy. Take responsibility for your own misconceptions. I have enough of my own thank you very much.

korg is a super agent in her majesty's secret service.

I didn't really mean to imply that I think you're being dishonest. You just don't provide enough information for me to accept it as evidence towards the points we're debating, so I view it as somewhat superfluous.



No, it doesn't. You assume that there's some kind of clear dividing line of attitude between old and new players. I don't think that's true. You will find players of all ages on both sides of any common issue (like land owner rights, aesthetics, social norms) and my guess is that the percentages remain fairly static without direct correlation to SL age.



That may be true. There is certainly some cliquishness in SL but again I don't think it has much to do with the length of time people have been around. For example you might have assumed that I jumped into this thread because Pahoa is an old timer and I came to her defense. That would be a false assumption. I haven't actually adressed her direct situation with Prokofy because I habitually stay out of he said she said arguments unless it raises philosophical points that interest me that I have strong opinions about, as was the case here.



I don't doubt that you're different in world than on the forums. Doesn't matter to me either way. I'd be bored out of my mind if SL was just a mutal appreciation society. I don't make assumptions about people based on their opinions about anything other than their opinions. I don't tend to take notice of the influence of in world relationships on opinions because I think it's a mistake to do so, and more often than not I'd probably be reading things between the lines that aren't actually there. I probably know a lot of people in various alt incarnations and have no idea who's who, and who's also who. It doesn't matter to me. I see everyone as a peer and an equal... even the ones I disagree with.



Opinions are always relative to the observer, as are interpretations of what's observable. It's human nature. Knowing that, I tend to not give much weight to anything that depends too much on conjecture and simply admit that I don't know one way or the other. If there's an oldbie clique they haven't been inviting me to the meetings



That's ultimately what it comes down to, and precisely why I feel the way I do about the rights of land owners. Cat herder seems like an overly stress filled occupation to aspire to.

I HATE 007 thank you very much... all of them. Then again, you must think highly of Korg to believe he would fit into that rarified group.

OTOH, Korg in world is one person... here another... I said that long ago. Look it up.

It's amazing to me that a thread started about a neighbor conflict has now devolved into irrational hyperbole about the existence of some sort of aristocracy with an agenda against newer players. In my mind, this claim is beyond farcical.

You're not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you. Not to mention that fact that some are approaching borderline hysteria here with claims of remote speakers working only for "elite" players.

Sigh.

i don't know what you are talking about. the korg i know comes is assorted flavours and packaging. go go powerranger korg.

Nope. I never said you were spying. As a matter of fact, I simply stated that which you implied, that you had used them to study groups or cliques. Is this the part where I am supposed to accuse you of having no reading comprehension ability?

Geez, Weedy, you really got a burr in your saddle. This is just a discussion, lighten up.




Er, no, you didn't strong-arm me into agreeing with you and STFU, if that's what you mean. "You have not convinced a man because you have silenced him."



I'd like you to present one SHRED of evidence that I have either behaved as the building police or advocated building police, much less harassed anybody. I had a fairly brief discussion in-game with Pahoa, she took a fit, published it on the forums, and responded. But nothing more has happend in-game, in case you noticed, except that a lot more people came out to visit King Kong, and more people bought my parcels LOL. Really funny! I'm not a self-appointed zealot, but you seem to be, in that you believe that you can use bullying tactics and intimidation on other people who disagree with you and name-call them to boot. I think I've quite in the right to raise the issue of zoning, and use practical examples from SL to do so. I do think that what I've done up to know with Pahoa is EMINENTLY correct and defensible. Remember that while you all have been raging on the boards here, she and I haven't even talked in-world and the incident is closed -- she's doing her thing, I'm doing my thing, and we're just ignoring each other LOL. Nobody is zealously asking the Lindens to zone her or eliminate me or filing any abuse reports -- this is all in your fevered imagination. What I am doing is raising the philosophical issue of what to do about King Kong, especially if you're Fay Ray. Try to rise a little bit above your reactionary angery and tribal-defense of your in-group and realize that.



Er...how can I "inspect" lol? Not even the Lindens "inspect" unless there's a distinct TOS violation. They must wince inwardly constantly at the fate of their lovely sims. Nobody is harassing Pahoa. Nobody is asking her to do anything, filing reports, talking to Lindens, or erecting, say, giant walls of scrim in the water next to hers to block her out. And the reason nothing is happened is because in fact I do respect Pahoa's and her group's right to build whatever they damn well please on their lot, regardless of whether it's in my line of sight or my customer's line of sight. But what I'm looking to do is a) find ways to ameliorate conditions when possible by inquiring about plans so that we can all make choices and b) raising the larger issues of how you can avoid these unpleasantnesses by having residential sims. It wouldn't be me running the inspection of the residential sim process LOL, it would be the Lindens.



I haven't spewed any crap about setting examples for younger players and I'd challenge you to find one quote of mine that fits that bill. Ignoring the TOS? Huh? But the TOS doesn't prohibit asking your neighbor about her plans and whether her water might be put to sale, or whether someone should move. I'd thank you to remember that these are actual in-game actions in question. And the TOS would also support a hypothetical negrate from me, or my group, if that was our desire, but frankly, that's not even a remote possibility because there's nothing actually lagging or obstrucing from this build.

And I'll revisit the issue that it was first Pahoa that slammed the layout of my development and slammed the customers' builds and accused me of being a land baron type. And not suprisingly, we have from SL's Hanging Sheriff yet another wonderful exampe for new players, which is that it's ok to spite somebody because they've "earned" it by being as annoying in-world as possible. Geez, I'll expect to wake up and find a horsehead in my bed next...if only I can get that sleep script to work LOL.

people are discussing rights and business.

i think it's entirely prokoky's business what his neighbours do with their land, and his right to band together to petition against king kong bathing in the nude and to negrate indiscriminately.

i also think it's prokoky's neighbours' right to tell prokoky to get stuffed, and to raise the issue on the SL forum and get community feedback.

as long as no one is griefing or hacking accounts or spreading libel etc, i don't think anyone is misbehaving. i definitely don't think anyone's position or choice of actions was wrong or rude, but perhaps the choice of words might have been.

The rest of your post not being arguable one way or the other I will limit myself to the above and quote Reagan.

There you go again... claiming to know what my assumptions are. In addition, you reserve the high ground of not having made assumptions prior to interacting with people, thus implying that I do so in a negative fashion. Shame on you.

The tenor of your post is that I AM being disingenuous. That I AM being dishonest.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I stated up front I am not on either side of the original post/issue.

I also, in another vein, posted that I happen to hold the same opinion expressed by Prokofy that there is an observable cliquishness that seems to center involve a particular class/group of players - lacking a better word, oldbies. I acknowledged that not all oldbies are in lockstep and that not all probably agree on everything. Finally, I never suggested that any individual oldbie was out to get/despise/denigrate any non-oldbie.

I did state that cliquishness is something that might be expected - somewhat conveniently overlooked by other people --- or seemingly interpreted negatively/as a slight. Hell, I didn't even say that anyone in this thread was "cliquish" in particular, did I? Did I name anyone? Point any direct fingers? Nope... not that I can find in any of my posts. I left it for others to interpret - which has been done and that is what is so amusing. Why would people be defensive about being in a clique if that is not a bad thing? Why would they have to defend such "membership"/friendship unless they thought this could be seen as a bad thing?

So, having reminded you of that, what are you basing your conclusion about "my assumptions" on? I can't imagine what.

In other words, listen to what I mean, not what I say?

So you "spy" on every person you interact with?

Oh, wait. We're talking about me. I forgot. I MUST be spying because it is me, right? I get it now.

That's not a reading comprehension problem you just evinced. That's a logic problem.

Maybe it was the tone of your response to Ingrid that put that burr in her saddle, or some of the other cheap shots you are taking such as, 'And to pre-empt -- yes, the smug know-it-all-elite say in reply to this comment'.

I would suggest that before you tell people to lighten up you may want to take some of your own advice. Long winded posts pock marked with ad-hominen attacks, innuendo, and references to the former Soviet Union aren't likely to draw 'feel good' replies.

Come on my smug know-it-all-elite comrades we have to get these tracks laid to the Gulag sim. then we can start talking about setting up some ovens and gas chamber showers.

You simply refuse to stop putting words in my mouth don't you? I NEVER said you were spying. It's that simple, "dude".

I've never read so much trash in all my life.I own 37000sqm of land - half the sim - in Brooks. I give all my vendor spaces for free to any new player who asks,we keep folders packed with free stuff for any new players who wander into the club too - we ALWAYS go out of our way to help new players - always.

Cliques/social circles/friendships exist in RL so why would it be any different in a game based solely on social interaction? I heard all kinds of weird things about Anshe Chung & for a long time viewed her as this legendary land owner who was up her own backside and a part of the superrich 5%

The of course I met her, and Anshe is one of the kindest and most helpful people I've met in this game.

I'll say one thing for Second Life, for every griefer/snob there are 1000 decent helpful people and you dont get that in many games.Talk of an 'elite' is utter garbage I'm afraid.

I agree with you Jauani. The problem is that a couple of folks simply refuse to stop preaching that Pahoa & company's POV is due to an underlying system of collusion created, maintained, and employed by older players.

HA HA HA HA it took me the longest time to try to figure out why Jeska was sitting on you and why you couldn't stop making personal attacks.

Why then did you choose this thread as as pulpit to express your belief about the supposed elite underpinnings of SL?

Yes, and now that they interpret, you accuse them of making assumptions. Clever.

Analysis --> Interpretation --> Conclusion (assumption).

Why does anyone bother responding to Korg anymore?

Why? You say you read the threads and have to ask why? I guess you didn't read that Prokofy had already opined about the cliques.... No... you just didn't remember that.. conveniently for yourself, of course.

As for your progress, it's a bit backwrads, no? Analyzing first then winding up at an assumption? That's called PRESUMPTION. You presume to know my assumptions and even my reasoning process.

God.. please. Keep Nolan awake for hours tonight. His responses are getting more and more entertaining with each post. This is even better than with heroboy.

Probably for the same reason you found it necessary to post your question.

You do not understand. I am asking you why you chose this thread to promote your belief that there is a group(s) of people that have an underlying agenda, yet you claim to be neutral.

Maybe my choice of terms was a bit off, but my point is this:

-Gather information
-Interpret information
-Form a conclusion

You completely circumnavigated my point yet again, that point being you invite others to "interpret for themselves", then dismiss their interpretations as assumptions.

I don't need you to tell me what presumption is, I see it in your posts which are riddled with it in the form of conspiracy theories with regards to the imaginary groups you are decrying.