I don.t get it, and they certainly don't

Just incase anyone forgot we are talking 2 different sims here. As far as I'm concerned you can build what you want in Ravenglass. As Katy (Hi Katy) said I'm easy to get along with. If you treat me with the respect you want then you will get it back. You may have noticed I'm not a "fanboy" even though I started the game in march of 03. As far as paying for the game, we all do or have so I dont want to hear that arguement.

I don't give a shit if you like Kong or not. I do,I placed him there and I wont move him because someone dosent like his looks. He was put there as a joke to Shadow when he came back. I won't be taking him down just for Prokofy Neva.You keep saying Kong dont matter cause he's around the corner but how many times have you bitched about him in these posts? 7-8 now?

The other things near Ravenglass were put there on OUR land because we like them. If you want to push it I own 3/4s of the stuff Starax has made. I could fill that plot with them.


Last but not least I repeat I OWN ALL Of THE ART... Not Pahoa, Not Shadow. You bitched at Pahoa without even checking to see who owned them. Next time know what your talking about before you start. You said more than once that Pahoa Placed them there.

Crimson Sunchaser

Okay, I gotta quote Siggy here... I couldn't resist:

PSYCHE! KING KONG DIED FOR OUR SINS!

Crimson,

Everything you've posted was already understood long ago, if you check the thread. Everybody LONG SINCE clicked on the animals and saw you were the owner.

It's merely that Pahoa ventured to speak on behalf of your group and take up the issue of the builds placed and represented the issue on behalf of your group. She didn't say "IM Crimson, he's offline" -- she herself embarked on commenting about them and their placement in-world and then taking this once-private dispute on to the forums. So take up with Pahoa directly the issue of how your ownership/art/choices were represented.

I can't see King Kong. Thank God! Well, OK, I can see him WAY in the distance because he's THIS BIG but I change my draw distance, I'm fine. I use King Kong in this discussion as a metaphor, a simile, a whatever all those things are that we learned in English class, to make a point: KING KONG LIVES. King Kong is always waiting to COME TO YOUR HOME. King Kong roars!

And I will come to LOVE King Kong! Because it can get worse in SL and DOES! I'm going to bite my tongue for now...but big ugly builds that make King Kong look like Tiny Tim tripping through the tulips are right around the corner! *Bites tongue*.

I'm taking everyone's advice to heart and I'm figuring -- if you don't like the SL weather, wait 5 minutes, it will change!

Meanwhile, I bought some more overpriced water from a fellow who had just bought overpriced water and put it up for resale understanding that water gets really pricey in an area like this where people are arguing and trying to protect views! Great deal, fella!

Do I need to repeat it again? I need to repeat it again.

1) No one asked you to remove anything, Crimson, Pahoa, and Shadow. Repeat: nobody asked you to move, change or do a thing. They asked if water was for sale -- people sell patches of water. It isn't. End of story.
2) Someone who saw the placements of sculptures asked if they could get their money back and move -- THEY WERE WILLING TO SELL AND MOVE, THEY DIDN"T ASK YOU TO SELL AND MOVE. Let's repeat it again in slow-motion: THEY...WERE...WILLING...TO...MOVE...THEY...DIDN'T...ASK...YOU...TO...SELL...AND...MOVE.
3) This extreme action was put to a halt by my intervention, asking Pahoa what the general plans were, finding out that they didn't involve a big store, weathering all her insults about our development, brushing aside her bitches about my customer's build, etc.
4) Nobody has lost a thing or suffered at all, everyone is continuing to play their game. EOM.
5) No one is going to negrate, attack, or pressure your builds your land your group or you or try to take away your right to do what you want on your own land. Indeed, we direct the considerable traffic out there now, without further comment, towards the King Kong because many people want to see him now and you should be getting LOADS of dwell LOL.
6) Don't confuse a critique of your design and style choices and community discussion of what people like to look at when they set up residences, with some kind of concerted attempt to make you change or move or do anything. When you put big things out in public, expect comments.

"I'm easy to get along with" but "I don't give a shit if you like Kong or not"? Think about that.

I agree, what you do with your land is ultimately up to you. If another person keeps after you about it, that person is not only wrong, but rude.

But there's also this: Bringing this issue to the forums is the best way to guarantee an unsatisfactory result. You bring it to the forums to embarrass a person, to focus scorn on him or her, to try to turn the community against the person. You don't do it to negotiate or try to solve the problem. The person who brought it here shouldn't have stooped to that; the person who responded shouldn't have belittled himself.

This issue should've been kept between the parties involved. If you couldn't solve it, you might have had a cooling-off period before trying again. Or you could've sought mediation, or a number of other things. Doing it this way means that one side or the other is bludgeoned in some sort of twisted popularity contest.

Finally, the newbie/established player thing is very clear in this thread. As someone who has been condescended to a number of times inworld on that issue, I'll say fuck that. It doesn't belong anywhere in SL. I happen to like the Kong statue because it shows some talent, not because it's made by a particular person. I don't like it standing in the middle of the water somewhere because putting it there is kitsch, as was said. But that's just my opinion, and the owner has the right to do what she wants with it. Not because it's made by somebody who is supposedly "famous" nor because she's somebody who is supposedly "respected", but because it's a native right given to all of us.

Please tell the rest of us where this elite, "tight knit community" is. For many of us who haven't been around that long, SL is a sprawling, chaotic place and I don't see much difference in merit or quality between the builds, products, or behavior of "older" players and newbies. I treat new people and people who've been here awhile the same way. If that's a mistake, tell me, and I'll be on my way.

If you had dropped it LONG SINCE I wouldn't have said it again. Read from page 3 quote on. Was that LONG SINCE?
Read the next to last one. The "your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever"

Yes Whatever.



Dallas
I stand by what I said. I don't care what people think of it. It's there for our group. Had someone asked me nicely to move it I may have.(as Katy said..I am a nice guy)(at least I am until someone steps on my or my friends rights) I even had 2 people rate me because Kong was there (before all this started). I'm done being nice. I was when this moron kept bugging Pahoa. Prokofy didn't have a problem bringing Blue Burkes name to the forums, why would he have a problem if someone brought his here?

I was on that night he kept after her. Pahoa and I were on Voice. Had he stopped when he said then none of this would be here.


Crimson Sunchaser

You talk a good game Prokofy, but you've already stated in other threads what your views are towards applying pressure on people to get them to bow to your whims. If you need your memory refreshed you advocated people starting grassroots campaigns to neg rate people whose builds you disapprove of. In Pahoa's shoes, had I read that thread, I'd likely have reacted the same way. Tcoz made a great post in this thread. Read it over and over again until it sinks in.

Pen,
I usually agree with everything you say on the forums because a majority of the time they are very calm and I notice that you try and look at both sides to every story, but this comment here, bugs the hell out of me...
Just because someone has been here longer doesn't give them any right to do things to others and a new player should NOT be afraid to stand up to them just because the date they were born. (I am not saying anyone in this thread did worng, I am a little off topic and just directing these comments).
You are right some people do run in a tight group... and I for one have stood up to them many times, and yes there are consequences, instead of one person mad at you, you get ten... big deal!
But, there are still people like me out there that will not judge based on the opinion of others and not with out getting to know you... it is wrong to try and discourage people to stand up to an "older player" .... just because they are older doesn't mean they are perfect.

Yep, I sure do advocate this as a possible tool to use in extreme circumstances. Sure do! But obviously "grassroots" consists of more than one person, correct? So there'd have to be a community a people or at least a group of 10 who would take this upon themselves, correct? Am I joined by 9 other people who aren't my alts? No. Are there too many nervous nellies at the gates? Yep. Is it still worth discussing? Yep.

Did I advocate it at any time for Pahoa Jade and Crimson and the others?

No.

Did I negrate Pahoa, Crimson, etc. others?

No.

First, I opened up a conversation with them about whether they planned to build big, so that someone who wanted me to buy back their land could have me pay them, and they could move.

Now, was that a grassroots campaign to negrate?

No.

Am I afraid of advocating grassroots campaigns to negrate?

No. Why? Because there are certain intractable situations controlled by absolutely unaccountable assholes that the community should feel empowered to deal with. Everybody has a negrate button. Use it!

Is it necessary in this case with Pahoa?

No. Pahoa said she isn't building a big store. She's put out some animals to display. They may not last forever. But at least people can maneuver boats around them. Next question?

Obviously you first try low-key methods -- inquiry, discussion, seeking of a compromise, and so on. I can remember a situation where I and some neighbours in an area tried discussion, offering money, offering swaps of land, etc. etc. In the end, the person got a negrate because of their intractable refusal to understand that they had completely blocked access to land with a gigantic build that had no place in what had already been purchased by someone as a residential sim, and filled up by houses.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using your negrate. That's what it's there for. Or did you think it's only supposed to be used once a year on a griefer? But why?

People are horrified at the thought of negativity! Especially group negativity! Horrors! But turn it around and you see it is a highly educational tool to help people out of their horrible frustration and helplessness in this came. If Crimson collected 20 negrates on his King Kong, he might have to think twice about it. If he collects 20 posrates, may the best man win.

Negrates are eminently reversible. I can and do reverse them.

Negrates should become an actively used function in the game on builds and people should seek to improve the quality of builds and avoid the basic annoying builds that everyone can agree on: lagging, dragging down a sim FPS with excessive scripts, blocking access to land, blocking a view substantially.



Er, could you raise the intellectual level of your discussion slightly? People don't believe something because they repeat it mindlessly and it "sinks in". You attempt to use logic and facts for persuasion if you want to be taken seriously.

Prokofy,

Here is some rope and a shovel. I will cut you some more slack with the rope because you are doing a great job of hanging yourself. The shovel is for the pit you are digging for yourself.

You may as well return the nose clip too, because reading your posts, it's quite obvious your S--T don't stink. You will say anything, twist any comment, babble on in endless paragraphs about your self appointed zealot for harrassing anyone who's build does not meet your standards.

SL is about TOLERANCE, but reading your posts, you'd rather shove your ideals down everyone's throat. Snide remarks about age, or liberals etc, get you nowhere and your purpose is diminished.

Go ahead, push the revert button. you will do the community a favor.

I'm surprised at such a nasty post coming from such an honorable player as yourself who I've heard described as an all-around decent guy.

What exactly is your beef here? That I stuck to my guns and advocated negrating?

That I approached a neighbor to protect a view?

That I stood up against the smug, self-referential, cliquish old players?

Er...WHO is the community, Weedy? It's you and your posse? You speak on behalf of "everybody"? Nobody else can be heard?

I would urge you to provide one shred of evidence that I have ever harassed anyone over a build.

Using a negrate is not harassment. It is legal under the TOS. The Lindens could never, ever accuse anyone of harassment for using a legal function under the TOS.

Let's revisit the 7 negrates I have awarded in my short time in the game.

-- At least 2-3 are accidents during attempts to press on a name and give someone a triple rating in a laggy club, then crashing and not being able to find that person. If anyone feels they are negrated falsely, they can always contact you. I've never had anyone ask me anything and those people were either trials or never came online to worry about it.

-- 2 were to griefers -- widely acknowledges as such by all concerned, including Lindens. One had some kind of camera that followed us around on a property. Another built mile-long strings of wood way up into the air and bounced people around with scripts.

-- 2 negrates went to one of those controversial security-script people who bounce you way back home merely because you accidently went on their property while getting lost outside the telehub.

-- 1 negrate was used for a building that marred the land and blocked access and made land unusable and unsellable.

Now you may not have 7 negrates in your possession, but I hardly think this qualifies me as quite the menace to the community that you'd like to portray me as. Even if I had 47, so what? Awarding negrates for building is legal under the TOS.

Sure, I tend to answer in long-winded paragraphs, especially when parsing sentence by sentence through somebody's equally long-winded retort. Skip over it if you don't want to read it and read my lips: I didn't harass Pahoa or do anything to her actionable under the TOS.

If SL is "about tolerance" why this constant heedless hedonistic slash-and-burn approach to so many builds? Heaps of burning slag formerly known as pretty natural sims litter the Lnden servers.

If SL is about "tolerance," why the "hanging sheriff" approach? Or did you think you can enforce you values on other people through forums mob justice?

I don't respond to threats and incitements to commit suicide, thank you very much.

You said it, not me. Need a bigger shovel?

I am not "on either side"... but have been reading this in its entirety.

I'll limit my comments to one thing. "SL is about tolerance."

Who the hell says so? I flat out reject that assertion. My "inworld game" has zero to do with tolerance. It has to do with "me and my interests" - nothing more.

Now, my interests happen to shift and change - from minute to minute at times. But, tolerance is nowhere in my game equation.

Some other people's games involve socializing, virtual sex, political crap and commercialism. Good for them. Just don't force that on me.

Someone once told me that SL is whatever you want it to be. Since you can make, script and design whatever you want given the time and effort, there is no need to buy land or anything else technically. It is absolutely possible to be a hermit in the game --- tolerance has ZERO to do with SL if you don't want it to be a factor. (Note: grieifing is NOT the opposite of tolerance.)

You can now return to your discussion .... I will return to my game where tolerance has zero place.

Ok.

Let us get this right... You merely asked Pahoa a simple question? She answered with a simple " I don't know just yet".


Then for some reason unbeknown to yourself, she comes here and posts. I have never meet Pahoa before yesterday, but I dont need a degree in rocket science to understand that someone would merely rant in the forums because someone asked a simple question of concern.

Reading your posts, it immensly obvious, your contempt is the issue of this thread. Not King Kong, or your customers, or your nieghbors. You don't have a humble prim in your avatar.

For someone who can't accept criticism, you sure like to dish it out.

I agree Sensual. It is also why I stated "right or wrong" in my post. However, I stand by my main point of that paragraph which is, if you come out in your first paragraph of a post insulting and name calling an established, well known player, you *will* have *many* people that will not listen to a single other word you have to say. It is a simple fact.

Yep, that's how it went. And she got more and more indignant and I had to keep explaining it was on behalf of a customer OVER AND OVER.

The first contact with her was an in-game PM/e-mail. She answered me from her email while logged off. It might have ended there -- but it didn't. In-world, she escalated -- because the very thought that someone might ask to buy from her, or seek to know something about her plans irritated the hell out of her.

She went into it already peeved at something she read in the forum here evidently about Blue Burke's build in Clunn/Dowden. She decided I might do the same thing to her. She escalated and escalted. I think it's not only because she was having a bad sim day but because she had just set up house after moving from Lusk and escaping what she thought was forever from vexing neighbour problems.

Let me repeat again in words of one syllable: Pa-ho-a did not lose a thing she gets to do what she wants.

Er...for someone who is immune to criticism or doesn't have a humble prim in their avatar, I certainly have set myself up for SLEWS of criticism. I've listened to it all, and where it makes sense, I abide by it. Where it is assassinine, I push back.

Yep, I do have contempt for assassine, old, cliquish, mob-justice beta-test-love-fest players who first showed contempt for me.

But hey, if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes, it could change.

Why don't you all get off this now? The earth moved on its axis, the LL servers turned and hum, and life goes on. King Kong is frolicking in his bay, and people are buying plots at Ravenglass and I'm widening some of the lots and buying some water nearby. Life goes on!

A simple "Thank you for your response" would have completed it. Move along.

However, you have proven, in spades, that it takes two to tango. Being unsatisfied with a response (good or bad, I dunno, I was not there) you had a hand in on this situation and have not offered one word of contrition. I believe you owe Pahora an apology and if what you say is true, she would probably do the same. Try humble sometime...you be suprised how far a little good will can go. Respect is earned...not enforced.

I am sorry that Pahoa has had to experience any kind of grief, given the vicissitudes of moving from Lusk and having to set up shop in a new place.

But she took what was a minor scuffle in e-mail and Ims out to the forums and made a long rant. Furthermore, she went into attack mode immediately, before I commented on her/Crimson's sculptures and began accusing me of being a rapacious land baron wanting to get rich quick and escape the area with cash after scarring the land. That was a ridiculous claim completely unsubstantiated. She conveniently left that out of her story. Here this scion of the community, beloved by all, showed a not-very-pretty-face to someone by immediately going *first* into attack mode and trashing a customer's build to boot. So I'm afraid that requires a push-back.

You people have been at this far, far too long with no push-back.

Why don't YOU try a little respect and stop lording it over the place?


I feel she overreacted and made it worse for no good reason, given that nobody negrated her, pressured her, or asked her to do a thing but merely sought *information* to *make a decision*. So I don't feel I need to make some kind of public act of contrition.

Sorry, Woody, that I just can't conform to the hanging sheriff's order to get on my knees.

The first part of the above I agree with. The second part is just plain wrong. If after speaking with a neighbor and trying to sway them to your viewpoint they don't come around to seeing things your way, the next step is to accept it, respect their right to do as they please on their own land, and let it go. That's it. End of story. To do anything more is to assume arrogantly that you have some sort of entitlement to define standards for others. You don't. Ever.



Educational tool? LOL. You use neg rates to lift people from the burden of their ignorance, which, I imagine, you would define as anyone who doesn't share your subjective view. The ratings system was poorly thought out. Why discourage people from trying to be creative by making them feel they have to somehow live up to standards other than their own, or build for reasons other than their own enjoyment? It's antisocial, unkind, and inherantly unfair, which is why the community has evolved to feel the way they do about the use of negs as you describe... it's essentially blackmail at the price of making people feel like shit. The punishment is worse than the crime, which is why they are so seldom used for anything but behavior or things that are truly offensive. SL is not a contest for those who don't wish to make it into one, and it's not my place or yours to force anyone into one.



Like I said, that's pretty much blackmail when used for something as inane as not liking someone's build.




You're welcome to wish the SL world worked differently than it does, but it doesn't change the fact that it works the way it does. Rather than try to force others to change to your standards and tastes you would do better to accept that it's not going to happen. If you stop worrying about what other people do and just concentrate on your own creative expression you'll enjoy SL a lot more and piss a lot less people off in the process. If someone violates the TOS, report them. If they haven't, accept their right to do as they please and simply live and let live.



No, obviously I can't raise the intellectual level of the discussion since you ignored the substance of the remark and chose to make an ad hominem attack instead. Perhaps you should follow your own advice?

Can you say "harassment"

Not so, G.I. What you are saying would be true in the normal course of things. For example, with Pahoa, who is generally a decent builder, sensitive to the landscape and her neighbours, whatever one feels about hers and Crimson's design placement choices. This is a normal situation that certainly doesn't require a negrate, and doesn't get a negrate because the inquiry was made, the information was gathered, and everybody but you settled back down to their game.

However I would certainly find it completely appropriate to negrate a neighbour with a giant, obstructive, ugly, scripted, lagging build. Absolutely! And I hope others would join me on it. And this idea that this is "arrogant" or "entitlement" completely obscures the point that the person making the giant ugly build gets to be arrogant and be entitled, but I'm supposed to be helpless. Bullshit! I certainly don't plan to be helpless in the face of a laggy, obstructive, nuisance build. I've negrated a build and reversed the negrate the minute the person put back their weekend fooling-around back in their inventory. They came online for an hour and put a Big Ugly on their lot -- but you're online all week and have to stare at it day after day. Inventories are a great place for things like that.

A negrate helps to concentrate the mind wonderfully. It's a great conversation-starter



*Shrugs*. We'll see about that. I think it might be instructive to have a Big Ugly Negrated Build This Week sort of running theme and post it here to see just how many people really agree with a negrate and why there's all this fuss where we can't push back and can't use negrate and can't start to rid the landscape of thoughtless obnoxiousness like this.



Huh? I hardly think anyone's creativity is ever stifled by the fact that you can use a negrate or that I advocate a negrate. Is Pahoa crouching in a corner? Hardly. Get a grip. This is a game with negrate in it. Too bad.



The negrate is a wonderful tool put in by the Lindens. Thank the Lord! And maybe your clique evolved this way because it's a lot of skittish liberals -- and I mean deliberately to use the word liberal as a swear word here although I consider myself a classic liberal -- because they are so clutched up about any kind of judgement that they fear even common sense. Their minds are so open, their brains fall out.

Your community evolved? Well guess what. It's evolving elsewhere. We're here, we're queer, get used to it. Lots of other people will come in the game and do things you don't like, among them using the negrate.



Excuse me, it's legal under the TOS. If you established some informal usage barometer for it, too bad. It's there to be disrupted. I would advocate using it for big ugly builds that obstruct. The fact that I didn't negrate Crimson's King Kong ought to tell you my extreme tolerance level : )



I get to use my negrate, just like you do. It's legal.



Shit happens. People already use it that way. Maybe it is used too loosely. But I do believe that it is possible to arrive at some rough consensus of what constitutes big bad ugly builds that can and should be negrated.

Example: Blue Burke's gigantic club with giant feet extending down into a beautiful basin in Clunn/Dowden. I actually didn't get around to negrating that one because I thought I'd open it to discussion first. He's actually telling us it's just an experiment now and it may be changed or removed completely. That was an extremely useful exercise.


Boomerang that right back to you, bub. It's no longer under your control.



Why don't you follow your own advice? I didn't violate the TOS, and what I advocate doesn't violate the TOS and it doesn't even encroach on an already-existing common understanding of what constitutes a big, bad, ugly build.

Sure can. What Pahoa did was raise into a public forum/mob justice discussion an essentially minor dispute between 2 sims.

What she did would have gotten her thread closed on Stratics.

LOL, I almost don't have to reply to you at all. All anyone needs to do is hand you a bit of rope and you happily hang yourself with it. Your posts reek of arrogance and a sense of entitlement... and more importantly, a complete lack of empathy for anyone but yourself.



You don't seem very settled to me. In fact it seems you've elected yourself SL's arbiter of taste. That must be quite a burden to have to carry around with you.



That would pretty much be a textbook example of a sense of entitlement. You cast yourself as the victim of other people's bad taste when in reality it's up to any land owner or builder to decide for themselves what value to place on your opinion. That value has to be earned. It didn't come included out of the box with your susbscription fee. Is your opinion so golden that a new builder just learning how to use the tools should be made to feel like shit until they hurry up and conform to your standards? That's pure arrogance.



Obnoxious is right, but you're pointing to the wrong source. In the above scenario it would be you being the obnoixous person, and it's quite sad that you don't see it. You may want to talk to Maxx Monde about how well self appointed architecture critics go over. He tried doing something similar as his way of introducing himself to the SL community and was nearly ridden out on a rail. People simply don't react well to that sort of thing.





Let me spell it out for you in simpler terms... suppose someone comes into SL who isn't a professional artist and has no previous related skills and buys a plot of land to enjoy tinkering around on. They're experimenting away, having fun, learning, enjoying being in a collaborative creative environment... then you come along and tell them their building sucks and they shouldn't mar the landscape with their crappy no-talent hackery and you give them their first negative rate... a permanent mark of disapproval. Now they feel like shit and are no longer having fun. They're self conscious and don't want to experiment and learn for fear of being ridiculed. Nice. Way to ruin someone else's experience. The harm caused to them would be far worse than you having to look at something you don't find aesthetially pleasing.




Huh? What does liberalism have to do with this? If you're equating empathy and a desire to make people feel welcomed and supported as they learn to express themselves creatively then I'll happily be considered a liberal.



"Your" community? Excuse me? It's interesting that you cast this in "us versus them" terms. You've also previously called it a "clique." That's a bit bizarre and paranoid. It's "our" community, of which every SL subscriber is an equal member, no matter how long they've been a part of SL, or how much their tastes deviate from yours.




Was it ever in question that you have the same rights as I do? Under my control? There you go again. Why not simply accept and be a part of the world instead of fighting against it? I wouldn't presume to control anything... including my neighbors, nor would I submit to their control.

You will never arrive at a common consensus of what constitutes good taste or bad. Tastes are inherantly subjective and this isn't a contest to see who gets to be the arbiter.

You still don't get it.

You're confuosing negrating as a way of criticizing and motivating a player who has made a big bad ugly obstructive laggy build with negrating wildly just when you feel like it, on a whim, such as to lash out at newbies or creative people. Why do that? I'm not suggesting athat at all.

And I'm not imposing my taste or general sense of Western-world aesthetics on anyone. I'm talking about big bad ugly builds that many people suffer from and many people agree about it. I'm for casting around to see where that area of agreement lies.

We've already established that at least one lonely brave newbie was able to say out loud in this hostile smug and clubbish environment that yes, she isn't exactly happy to look out at a gorilla when she would rather see natural land.

Go and read the thread about the big building in Clunn to see what I mean by big bad ugly obstructive and I no doubt you'll agree with me -- anyone would.

Maxx Monde is among SL's best architects. I'm glad he ventured out into that thin ice of trying to indicate some standards -- based on RL aesthetics if nothing else -- for what constitutes "good". I'm not sure what he did, but I'm glad he tried. What I'm suggesting is actually different -- negrating in extreme circumstances of really bad builds. But I shouldn't have to keep characterizing it and qualifying it just to please you and all the other nervouse nellies. I'll just do it, and post it. And leave it at that.

He certainly wasn't "ridden out on a rail" by you witch-hunters, he's in the game and enjoying great respect for his builds by many, myself included.

Nobody would pressure a newbie or a creative person with a negrate.

As for shovels, ropes, whatever, saying that you "feel like" pressing "release" doesn't mean that you are doing it. In fact, I wouldn't give any of you smug self-satisfied types the pleasure!

Could you all get a life? At least a second life?

Please tell me who does this so I can be sure to be just as ignorant to them as they are to others.

Oh, that would be ME Sensual! *Stands back while the stones are hurled*. Would you like to hold the cloak?

Actually, I didn't insult her in the first paragraph, she insulted me in the first paragraph of her in-world comments, the record easily shows that.

Oh, unless you call saying that she fabricated or misrepresented the story "insulting" -- but then she left that bit out and some other bits.