What is the Community?

Well, I appreciate your taking the trouble to show me those quotes, Stoneself.

I think, though, that we just aren't seeing the same things in the same way. I don't consider any of those quotes to be personal attacks at all. Or any kind of "attack" on the game, the game makers, or the community.

I see them more as a cautionary voice. And unfortunately, the longer I'm here, the more signs I see of this casual sort of approach by the game-makers to the older, more famous players that they happen to know of, rather than making an attempt to use someone besides the same-old same-olds.

Now I have said earlier that I think this is a natural sort of mistake for them to fall into, given that at the start of this game, there really weren't that many people, and the game-makers felt a great deal of kinship with other players who were - unlike in other games - actually CREATING the whole thing, along with this-or-that Linden who created many of the free things in my inventory, such as the 2003 Linden Camp Goodies.

And naturally they listen to the more experienced players, and the people who have made a lot of the landscape, and those who are most involved and vocal. That is just natural. But the game is bigger now, like it or not - and I can only assume their goal is to make it much, much bigger eventually.

I have advocated that they get a little more PR-aware and stop using the same people for everything. That they make certain to invite everyone to meetings, not have semi-private ones. That they get on the stick and get more profiles to use on the main page. That they listen to more voices than just those of the techi-wiki. That they realize that content doesn't just come in physical form, yet that is all that is supported in the game. That they stop looking at the game in terms of producers/consumers, as if there were some vast group of people who want to do nothing on a game but buy Lindens to buy things from other people. That they make the game more appealing to more types of people than just the techi-wiki. That - in other words - they take the steps that imo will be necessary to appeal to more people, to grow the game, and to prevent these appearances of favoritism.

What all that means is not only do I not find any of those quotes from Prokofy in the least insulting or divisive, I also agree that the problems he points to exist.

That, to me, is a great deal different from - as Jake said earlier - suggesting an individual poster is a lunatic who needs to be institutionalized.

coco

aside from a few people, i think you're been treated as a respectable person. but then my sample is biased because i treat you as a respectable person.

aside from people who think you are an alt, i think you've been treated about the same as anyone else who dares to take a controvertial position. lord knows i've taken enough controvertial positions...

Yes, you do, StoneSelf, and I appreciate that.

coco

hmm... at least i hope you don't think being called fic by prokofy is intended in a positive way.

What happened to the forums aren't a true representation of the SL community?

What happened to only 10% read them?

Oh - wait - that wouldn't serve your argument at this juncture!

On the part about revealing what you thought was someone's RL gender; all the circumstances (excuses) in the world don't matter. You did that which you say you are so vehemently against. It doesn't matter if you were told in-world by this fictitious "hundreds of times". I heard about yours in this same manner. Will you make an excuse for me too if I go to SLU and post it?

For the record, I never heard this rumor either, nor has anyone I have spoken to on this subject. "hundreds of times" indeed.

Folks, let's leave it alone. This is probably what Prokofy intended, that this thread would devolve into an argument, and then he could once again indict the "community".

What I'm pointing out is that people who *think* they are the community behave in an outrageous fashion.

It's visible for all to see.

The rest of the people were having a pretty normal discussion.

Then the usual 3-4 come up with the usual crap.

This amounts to ad hominem attacks, fake crimes, dreding up stuff even off their own forums.

There's absolutely NO moral equivalence between me accidently making an inadvertent disclosure that I asked to have removed on Cristiano's blog, and packs of junkyard dogs harassing me and savagely biting me for months on these forums using this RL disclosure as a weapon, and a violent one at that.

Absolutely. No. Moral. Equivalence.

Yes, only 5 percent, not even 10 read these forums. And yet most people filling out the poll didn't say that they think this forum is the community. So that's instructive. I'd invite you to ponder it.

No I don't, Stoneself, lol. I wouldn't much like being called "shorty," either, or take it as some kind of a compliment. But the fact remains - I am short, lol.

As for Prok starting a thread because he knew it would devolve into all this - no. Problem is, if Prok decides to start any thread on something he considers interesting, others - because they don't LIKE the ideas he thinks are interesting - cause it to devolve.

I keep hoping this will stop, and continue to think that it ultimately will. In this particular thread, the minute Chip piped in with something, I wanted to say, "oh, let it go, Chip!" But I thought it best to ignore it. Then it went on.

Lookie, maybe we just can't avoid it, you know? We just can't stop Prokofy from posting on whatever subject he likes, and we can't avoid people getting riled up about it, knowing as they do what his positions on things are.

So maybe we just have to muddle through it. If Prokofy is willing, and I know I'm willing, and the rest of you must be willing, or you wouldn't be in this thread - then maybe that is just the way things are going to be. And you know, that's okay. Not ideal, but not the end of the world, either. The only other alternative, after all, is to try to stop Prok - or Chip - or me - from talking.

coco

Its's not instructive at all. It's quite obvious the forums are only part of the community. This is why people aren't choosing it, or most of the other options.

SL is, as a whole, a community. It may not be the community you think it should be, but it is, and there's no changing that. We are all part of it.

1. I stand four-square behind every one of these posts. They are my opinion. They are not personal insults. And they are not designed to "deliberately skirt the TOS" they are just my expression of my opinion, in a context where I believed (evidently falsely) that such discourse was tolerated and even encouraged.
2. My, do you have a LIFE Stoneself that you can go dredge them up? Dredge away, I stand by them.
3. In each one of these posts, I characterize the behavior of SOME people on the forums, a bit of which spills into the game. These people on the forums are a tiny percentage of the game population. The forums posters are 5 percent (or let's say 10 percent read, 2 percent post even. Of these, and even tinier fraction of that percentage carry their "issues" into the game). That these people are not "the community" or "all oldbies" or even "all tekkies" can be seen in a phrase like this:

"the fact that such paranoid and cynical thinking even crossed my mind was a direct result of reading these forums and seeing the feted and cosseted elite do their thing, sometimes with tacit Linden support." (emphasis added)

4. Thus these posts are about a small but vocal minority that has arrogated itself to the role of "the community" but which clearly can be seen as NOT the community, because the community is a far, far, far, fAR bigger thing!

At least, I had hoped as much, but of course I could be wrong.

You are right, those two things are not the same, even without the gratuitious punctuation and capitalization. What is 100% equivalent, and what I called you on and what you keep trying to shift away from is what you chastised Stoneself for. If he heard you were a pygmy alien in SL and posted it, it would be no different than what you did. Absolutely. No. Difference. So. Please. Quit. Pretending. You. Are. Exempt.

BTW, you know full well they are forums, why do you keep calling it a blog?

I asked a long time ago on these forums who would be the next victim. I asked that it not be allowed; for a certain group in these forums from a certain website be allowed to run like a pack of rabid dogs. Distroying ideas that do not conform to their agenda.

I asked who would be next....today I found that answer.

The world is listening, Prok.

Cat

what are you all doing? there was a topic here once...

Catherine,

You cannot speak for anyone but yourself.

you didn't intend to use feted in a flattering postive way did you?

looking at the deformation of reality.

I'd like to find reality. All is deformation. Or deformation of deformation.

On community, it's inclusive. And even summons those who would not be a part of it. So is there another part to the issue?

Stone it was my intent to aim my comment generally. As it happens you are someone who does call Prokofy she, but in truth I was more generally trying to assert what a community standard should be.

In a later post you talk about respect being earned and lost. On that I disagree. Ther is a measure of respect that should be afforded everyone as a member of this community. The stand of respect should not be measured by what others do, it should be measured by what our conduct ought to be. In all our endeavours in this forum we should not react with a quid pro quo, but rather we should act in a manner that comports with how we ourselves wish to be treated.

In this I have failed, Prokofy has failed, hell almost everyone on the forum has failed (except maybe wuvme). But the fact that we sometimes do not live up to the standard of what our conduct should be does not mean it is not a valid standard. Sometimes when you are insulted it is better to swallow the bile and move on. We are each responsible for our own conduct, and accountable to the TOS, independent of what the conduct of others is.

I know this sounds horribly preachy, and maybe I am guilty of being a forum nanny, so be it. Someone needs to advocate decency and restraint and a common level of respect.
If prokofy were in fact gay, and yet he maintained his avatar was straight, would you feel comfortable constantly asserting his homosexuality? Or if he were black and his avatar were white, would you fell comfortable constantly asserting his race? As a forum community are we comfortable with these assertions?

I think there is a certain level of respect we are all entitled to as humans and as members of this community. It is not respect that is earned and lost, but respect that human being are entitled to. I think gender references fall in this category. Any assault on someones assertion of gender is, in my mind wrong. Of course we can rely on a persons own reference for how they wish to be addressed. Some people play cross gender and make no secret of it, others play both genders and make no secret of it, fine. But that choice is one that should be respected, no matter how disagreeable the conduct of the person is. This applies to all of us. You, me, Prokofy, coco..everyone.

everyone starts out with a certain default level of respect. and then they gain more or lose some.

respect is not the same as human dignity.

btw you haven't addressed the point of prokofy using feted and other things in an attacking way.

You aren't the first to advocate these ideas; you won't be the last. A lot of people here have done it, and then moved on.

Here's a key concept: The forums are largely gamed for the drama. It's not that many people here lack decency, restraint, and respect. It's that many people come to these forums to practice exactly the opposite. Deliberately. It's part of the fantasy life, part of the competition that can't be done in real life, because there are consequences. Their purpose isn't always to find solutions, create "community", or explore new ideas. Often it's to have a certain kind of "fun".

Why do they do it? I have no clue. But I don't let it bother me much, anymore.

You aren't the first to advocate these ideas; you won't be the last. A lot of people here have done it, and then moved on.

Here's a key concept: The forums are largely gamed for the drama. It's not that many people here lack decency, restraint, and respect. It's that many people come to these forums to practice exactly the opposite. Deliberately. It's part of the fantasy life, part of the competition that can't be done in real life, because there are consequences. Their purpose isn't always to find solutions, create "community", or explore new ideas. Often it's to have a certain kind of "fun".

Why do they do it? I have no clue. But I don't let it bother me much, anymore.

You just made my point Cristiano, do I agree just because you said it?

No I do not, if you think that ppl are not sitting behind their keyboards to afraid to post to these forums yet reading them daily. You are not only wrong but you are dillusional.

I talk to ppl all the time who ARE listening in our WORLD.

Cat

Catherine,

The only person that one can ever speak for is one's self - everything else is pure conjecture. Of course people read the forums and don't post - you can no more speak to their opinions or what they are listening to or not listening to than you can mine. I talk to people all the time who ARE listening too, Catherine.

It does not change that I can no more speak for them than you can with any kind of righteousness. No one speaks for a community, that is the entire point of this thread. You cannot possibly speak for what "the world" is listening to, or that they are listening at all. Most have a lot more important things to worry about than this nonesense, I would imagine, but who knows, as I don't know the thoughs OF THE WORLD to be able to speak for it.

Well you may interpret my understanding of gender as a foundation of human dignity. I say respect because we are free, in this community to assert a different gender. But at is core, every memeber of the community should have the inviolate right to have their wishes on this issue respected.

I did address the issue of the use of Prok using feted and other names in an attacking way. I state that the appropriate measure of conduct is not that which is, but that which ought to be.
If you are attacked with the terms FIC or tekki-wikkiati, you are not justified in offering the quid pro quo of asshat or some other response.

This is a swallow the bile and move on situation. Let it go. If it is truly offensive respond with an abuse report. But countering someone's foolishness with your own foolishness simply turns the forum into a pack of dogs howling and biting at each other simply to serve each packs own purpose.

Personally I do not see mere stereotyping along the lines of FIC or Tekki-wikki-ati as rising to the level of a personal attack. As with any stereotype, each fails underscrutiny, and is rendered meaningless for what it is. But if you feel the stereotype affects the core of your hjuman dignity, by all means report it, or explain how the stereotype is wrong, or better how it is offensive. It seems obvious to me you will not change the mind of the person making the stereotype, but you are adressing yourself not to them, but to the other reader.

Hopefully this clears my position on this matter.

Again at the core of the community definition is that it is inclusive, even of those who disagree with us.

i haven't seen you address prokofy about it. though i've seen you defend him attacks using feted. and i've seen you dress down the people who were upset by his widesweeping attacks.

It was a hyperbole Cristiano.



Cat