What is the Community?

Yes, I agree this thread was going along nicely until Chip baited and switched with another old thread he had a grudge about. But I think it pays to answer such baits for the record. *Shrugs*.

MY 2 cents!!!

I think a community is each individual sim and not necessarily stopping at sim lines but your neighbors. I have tried to always say hi to all my neighbors and get to know them. We also have groups which if the groups live in the same area then it would be the community as well. Such as D/s community would be a lifestyle group where the members live in and around the same area. I didn't see that option on your poll. The entire SL sims is the world but I don't think it be a community in my opinion.

okay enough said, back to your regularly scheduled program

My vote is:

The communit is all residents of SL regardless of land or reputation status.

Unless I specify (The fashion community, the scripting community, the forum community, The Midnight City community, etc) the word community means everybody. In the context of SL we can omit "the Second Life" community since it is usually understood.

I think nothing of the kind Prok. I think the above is your premise and the bias behind this poll to begin with, which is my point. No one "runs the game."

Personally I completely agree with Aimee's post. The community is all of us, including you, no matter how much you try to deride, diminish, and otherwise marginalize the parts of it you personally don't like.

Eh, I agree with Chip in this case. This thread is obviously an extension of your earlier assertions about "classes". I wont vote for precisely this reason.

No, Chip and Nolan, this isn't about "classes" although classes do exist. And it isn't some silly conspiracy but it's just a wagons-circling that some engage in that can easily be exposed for what it is -- group think on the part of some.

Many people talk about "the community". Many people say the community is "all of us". But in fact, Jim Lumiere is correct. They say that because they think that's the politically correct thing to say, as I understood what Jim said.

The reality is, some people have a very heightened sense -- a very protective sense -- of what they mean by "the community" especially when they start in with phrases like "X person hurts the community" or "Y behaviour hurts the community".

We saw this with some of the frenzied posts about supposed newbie "rape" victims in the WA so horrified by trash talk, Linden absence, and hittings-up by griefers that they ran screaming from the game. Nobody could actually prove any of this but there was a hue and cry about how this "hurts the community" with people speaking on behalf of a putative community that doesn't exist except in their own mind.

When Chip says something like this "The community is all of us, including you, no matter how much you try to deride, diminish, and otherwise marginalize the parts of it you personally don't like" he lets me know he is projecting, since what he and his confreres have often done is deride, diminish and otherwise marginalize *me*. This really so laughable as to be sad lol.

People who set themselves up to pronounce on other people as "deriding or marginalizing" blah blah blah in fact are engaging in this sense of drawing the community ideal around themselves like a cloak, when in fact it doesn't exist, except in their own internal landscape.

I agree with Della's point about different communities that are lifestyles. I should have thought of that, it definitely is the community that most people orient to when they log on. Like they might think of the "gay community" or "furry community" or whatever before they think of "all of us in SL".

But with the fracturing of the population in so many niches like that, I do seriously wonder what the common denominator is, and what the basic sense of shared purpose is. And in fact, I'd submit that you don't need some elaborate basic sense of shared purpose that then compels everybody to behave a certain way or yield some freedom. Other than the substrate of the TOS, I would hope there wouldn't be a lot more of that sort of coercion.

Basically, my purpose in generating this poll is to get enough feedback to test my sense of the situation, which is that no one group has a monopoly on what the community is, in fact, now that it is so big, but that some may still think they can influence it, and *do* influence, in part by their constant pronunciations on "what's good for the community".

At the end of the day, whatever sense one has of new horizons and new notions of community that could arise in the metaverse falls back on the hard reality that it is a private club, run by one company, with one staff, with one set of servers and a TOS.

So what's the solution? Should LL blow off your own suggestions about improved land tools only because you think you know that it would be an improvement and would benefit the community?

"Some". In other words, a class of people. A class invented and defined by you.

Anyone interested in where my notions of your thoughts on community and your derisive attitudes regarding it come from should peruse this thread (/120/d9/31559/3.html) where you make your feelings about community known in no uncertain terms, starting with the page that's linked. And yep, I do argue with your point of view and attitude, because I think ithey both generally suck.

Here's just one gem...



Notice your use of the word "your" as a way of casting your sense of community in an us vs. them context, and your use of the word "we" as you attempt to set yourself up as the savior of those under the thumb of it. It's all old hat now. You've been performing the same song and dance ever since.

a community of individuals
a community of individuals and communities
a community of sub-communities

a community of all

the sl community

I originally clicked the second option "The community is all residents of SL, but some have leadership status from age, reputation, etc". However thinking about it, the knowledge of this supposed leadership by age or reputation only really applies here in the forums.

If I had never read the forums, then the people to which this refers, would be unknown to me and therefore I would have chosen the first option.

Alexa

Perhaps the community is merely an interesting myth.

Just because there are leaders does not mean that everyone will follow what the leaders do. The poll seems kinda bias in the sense that you are asking what is a community, but yet the first and second answers are really the same. Within any group of people, you have people that lead. If you are a leader of a group, like the SL community, you have no real power, others just will be more likely to listen to what you say. So while there are leaders inside the SL community, the community is still everyone.

PS In a poll question, having etc is a really bad idea, that means that people can put whatever they want in that "etc" spot.

Many people talk about "the community". Many people say the community is "all of us". But in fact, Jim Lumiere is correct. They say that because they think that's the politically correct thing to say, as I understood what Jim said.

The reality is, some people have a very heightened sense -- a very protective sense -- of what they mean by "the community" especially when they start in with phrases like "X person hurts the community" or "Y behaviour hurts the community".

-----

Tell me about it. I HATE that word "We" when it really means, "Us, but Not You - or You, or You."

I remember when someone took me to task, saying, about me, "We don't need more trolls."

What a thing to say, about ME of all people! It still just astonishes me.

Anyway, I replied something on the order of, I'm not a troll, and anyway, I am a PART of "we," whether some people liked it or not.

The idea of trying to tell me I don't count - and I'm not a part of this community - and that particular guy was by no means the only one who did it, and who continues to do it - is outrageous.

Moreover, I see that here we have yet another incidence of Prokofy putting forward an interesting discussion about real phenomena and it only takes five minutes before certain people - who just can't STAND that he is a part of "we" - get on to start saying that nothing he says ever counts.

You know, he is just NOT going to think like you do, so you might as well give it up. You just can't change people's views and opinions into your own, no matter how much you may hate them.

As long as a large part of these forums is dedicated to running off various individuals, I would say that "we" are not yet as inclusive as "we" like to think we are.

coco

Coco, you really need to stop worrying so much about what some blowhard(s) says to you.

You're falling into the same trap Prokofy has. Someone gave him a smart assed answer to a video card question months ago, and he is still bringing that up as if it were an indictment of an entire sector of SLers.

Who cares if faceless Johnny Smug at the other end of 1000s of miles of cable thinks you are a troll or don't belong in SL? You're just playing into Johnny's plans by reiterating it.

"we"?

prokofy's the one creating divisions about newbies and oldbies and fic and techiwiki and all that nonsense.

and it's a lot of people that prokofy offends with that nonsense. so there is a big response to it.

we is all of us. and we don't need another troll. we don't. we need the interesting points that prokofy does bring up, but she ends up using then to further an agenda of pointing the finger of blame at people she feels are inhibiting her agenda. and we don't need that. not even prokofy. we (that's the we that includes prokofy) need the interesting prokofy. we (that's the we that includes prokofy) don't need "the trolling obnoxious, skirting the edge of rudeness, alt posting, fingerpointing, community dividing, whining about everything while never doing anything" prokofy.

Nolan, I appreciate your sentiment, and would normally agree with it. But that instance - which I believe was uttered by - who was it? Cubey Terra, maybe - you know, someone I had admired and had never said anything but kind things to or about - has not been in isolation, and you know it. And that isn't the only example I've had of a side-ways attack from somebody I andmired and thought of in a friendly manner, who I'd never done anything to in game and never said anything ill of - and only because I ever said anything in favor of one player.

I have been openly warned that if I ever side with Prokofy that I might be ostracized as well. I have been called an alt, a bedazzled follower, and a troll wannabe. Those are just the highlights of all that has been said, half of which I have ignored. It's been an uphill claw for me around here.

And the truth of it is - if I had just kept quiet on everything Prokofy ever brought up, or everything about him, or about the shunning, etc. - I wouldn't face such an uphill climb to acceptance. I don't like coming into a game that way, but what else could I do? I'd rather be unpopular myself than not be true to my beliefs.

Now the idea that the only way I can be accepted is to be quiet and not express my opinion about shunning or whatever, well, see, that right there is the problem.

There is this group pressure to make people think alike on these boards. And you know, people just are NOT going to think alike. Can't you just let Prokofy explore his ideas of community and leaders and cliques or whatever you want to call them? Just let him think what he wants? And let me agree with him when I want to?

Do people just HAVE to come in on every thread he ever writes with some rehash of who they think he is and they think his agenda is and how horrible he is and how no one should listen to him? I mean, you can just simply disagree with IDEAS, without having to malign individuals. Like maligning me.

So I think this poll explores very valid questions (which are valid in every online game and its forums, by the way) and does so in an unbiased manner, even a funny manner, which would be true regardless of who had written it, and is amazingly true considering Prok wrote it, and we know what his biases are. They are NOT, however, reflected in the poll itself. That's why I pay little attention to those who come in to declare the poll itself invalid, just because he wrote it.

coco

P.S. Er . . . Stoneself, what if YOU were the "troll" the person was saying "we" don't need?

I was the one that person was talking about, as the "another troll." Did you not quite get that part of my post when you read it?

What then? Please answer my question.

when you try to define community, the answer really depends on the context of the question I suppose.

It's like looking at a map. From a satellite, a country is a community, then a province, then a city, then a neighborhood, a street, a building...

Really a community can be viewed as something where people feel joined by something. We are all joined by our use and interest in SL. Within SL, we break out into a wildly diverse set of overlapping groups and individuals.

what i don't see is what defining the "community" gets us...


anyway...
SL is a wide-open game with an amazing level of personal freedom. There are many communities and a constantly shifting fabric of leaders within those communities (some who are real leaders and some who are not). There is no player who can set rules for others outside of their own/group land. There are no cheat codes given to a select few. There is merely a blank slate for creativity and an existing competitive environment (i.e. the world isn't going to start over just because you've decided to join), to which you can bring your own talents, drive, and savvy.

SL represents the fabric of humanity, with all its strengths and weaknesses, simply interacting over a different medium.

if it were me, i'd ignore it. nothing you can really say to namecalling. though sometimes it's amusing to return the favor.

hell, if i cared about what people called me, i'd crawl in a hole. i post real unpopular things from time to time. and i have two or three people who pop up to harass me once in a while. *shrug*

as practical matter, you'd personally get much less flak, if you stopped trying to defend prokofy's indefensible behavior. sure you can defend prokofy as a person and as someone who brings up interesting (but very rarely original) points. but you really can't defend prokofy's behavior and not expect people to tell you you're being blind.

* * *

the sl community is composed of communities with in itself. however, the one person who has done the most to point out those divisions is prokofy - the fic, the techiwiki, the newbies, the oldbies, the anti-prokofyist... divisions that reify the more they are used. that dividing has done more to harm sl's sense of community than almost anything else, imnsho.

the sl community is everyone. and when people say "we" they don't always intend to speak for the sl community. and anyone who says "we" and intends to speak for the whole of a community is a dork.

oh sure there are sub communities. there are builders, scripters, animators, club owners, land speculators, mall owners, people who have been around for 2 years, and people who ahve been around for 1 day, etc. but these aren't lines of war... they are useful descriptions. they don't have to be set against each other. and prokofy is always setting them against each other.

somehow prokofy tries to use oldbie like a perjorative. well people can't help they've been around for as long or as little as they have... not in the way that makes sense. people who have been around aren't all of one mindset... it's like she tries to create a stereotype akin based on one characteristic (time in sl). that makes as much sense as using skin color to tell what kind of characteristic a person has.

Well, I am probably more thin-skinned than you, StoneSelf. I generally get over it eventually, and even almost always give that person who hurt my feelings another two or three chances at least, cause most people occasionally say things they may regret, or didn't mean, or won't mean, once they get to know you.

And if a bunch of people are going after you, without really knowing you - well, obviously I don't even let that get to me, in the long run.

You are wrong, though, when you say that I try to defend a person's indefensible behavior. I have never, to my memory, defended what *I* consider indefensible behavior. There is a lot of behavior (on the part of many people) that I just don't comment on. It doesn't follow that I approve of everything I don't comment on.

I think some people decide something is indefensible (or more accurately, that an entire person is indefensible), then if someone else pipes in with a different viewpoint, or to agree with that person on something, or to defend the other person's right to exist on the forums, you conclude they are defending something (you have decided) is indefensible.

That right there is the whole crux of this whole thing.

I get to decide for myself what behavior is indefensible, and which behaviors are more egregious, and what points I agree with and what I don't. I say you have blinders on if you can't see this. To think otherwise still paints me as a dupe.

As for the FIC - the techi-wiki - these aren't divisive terms. These are cogent terms that are as long-lived and powerful as they are precisely because they have enough truth to them to strike a chord within all of us. We should all be as brilliant in coining terms. Of course, if I were an older player, I might be as irritated about these observational terms as I would be flattered by them.

What is far more divisive and destructive to me is the efforts to run off unpopular players and their ideas from the forums, along with anyone who agrees with the ideas or likes the unpopular player, and says so. That is what will have to change for this community to be perceived as a welcoming one.

coco

I'm with you Coco. Entirely.

A lot of times the "indefensible conduct" isn't. I mean a lot of people whom I otherwise like and enjoy very much disagree with me on the issue of Prokofy. But this thread is again an example of me not seeing where he said something that was all that provocative. I too have been told, by a number of players, that life would be easier for me on the forums if I disassociated myself with Prokofy. there very notion that we have this sort of conversation is wrong to me. I will agree, disagree, defend or condemn Prokofy entirely on the merits of his ideas and his conduct towards me. I have often fel substantial peer pressure form the forums as a whole, to shun Prokofy. I simply feel it is worng to allow a persons popularity with any group, to dictate my behavior.

If you disagree with prokofy, or condemn him for behavior or ideas, i do not fault you. But when people like Coco and I are condemned and labelled "alts" simply by association, I feel an injustice is being done. It is also my own opinion that the forums response to prokofy has become entirely and disproporitionaltey out of hand, but that is only my opinion, it does not make me right.

they were used derisively. that's indefensible.

let's just agree to disagree.

I find this overly dramatic.

He does explore his ideas, sometimes at the expense of other players. He treats these forums as his own personal blog most of the time. He is so vain that he will enter a question thread and will post a response nearly duplicate of the answer already posted, as if it needed Prokofy's stamp of approval before it should be taken seriously.

Who is stopping him from thinking what he wants? Who is "running him off"? He is still here, still sore over some idiot's comments in respect to his question about video card issues and projecting that incident onto others, months later.

Who is stoppping you from agreeing?

I hate to break it to you, but Prokofy shouts down others constantly and consistently. He has like 12 posts a day average. The channel is open and it's coming in loud and clear. please don't try to obfuscate this with non-facts.

Read the first two possible replies listed in this poll. If they aren't classic Prokofy I don't know what is.

i agree with you. an injustice has been done.i don't think it was disproportionate considering the number of people she offended. that is to say the response was proportional to the number of people she offended.

coining derisive terms is indefensible. sometimes amusing, but not really defensible.

the terms prokofy coined were set in insulting and accusing contexts.