What is the Community?

I disagree that people are always motivated to do things for purely selfish reasons.

I also think that people often genuinely do things for the community, for others because they feel others will benefit from them. They might not always be right about it's usefulness or appeal to the masses, but that doesnt't take away from the intent.

What's the alternative? Do nothing for anyone unless you're absolutely 100% sure it will be well received by everyone? That's sad. You can never be sure. It's a 50/50 proposition at best.

I think that's a perfectly valid point. There's always somebody willing to be the voice of the community, even if they are only the voice of the echos in their brain. Such people bear scrutiny. Even when it's me

Ironically, the person I see most often claiming to speak for others besides themselves is Prok

I think we all have moments where we are firmly convinced that the world is behind us, even if they're not speaking up right now. In drama, they call it the "God is on my side" principle - in order to have a motivated character, you have to be convinced that you are absolutely right, even when your character is obviously and tragically wrong.

The coda to my post was intended to emphasize that it wasn't directed at Prok or anybody else in particular. We all have our "God is on my side" moments.

We're on the verge of having a constructive discussion. That's always a fun distraction from the daily brawls

Good points Arcadia. I think there are only two ways to see the question... the first being pure semantics, and the second being purely subjective. My personal answer is the same for both. Community as a concept is inclusive, not exclusive. It seems that people who make claims or complaints that it's exclusive perpetrate the very thing they complain about.

1. Reddish! You are a part of a community! You're a part of MY community! It's my own little community of the people I know and like and care about and play with!

You know what, I just LOVE my little community! Even if the people in it don't know they are in it and don't know all the others in it, lol.

2. I got it, I laughed, and I'm not Catholic.

coco

Definatly everybody and everything built in sl King Philip is our leader

Many use the term "community" as a club, when they want to say "it hurts the community" or "that contributes the communitiy" or "that doesn't contribute to the community". I think it's just important to become aware of it. They use it when it suits them, they claim to invoke it or represent it when they need to.

I think it's worth people following up on their "God is on my side" moments if they have them but they can be sure to have their balloons punctured pretty quickly here.



I agree. And that's what I do. And that's why I reject this kind of statement utterly:



I think this is just one of those "received wisdom" and "exaggerated characterizations" types of posts that is just a masked personal insult, and I'd challenge Chip to come up with actual quotations of me "speaking on behalf of the community" in any kind of systematic way (in the manner in which he does LOL) but PLEASE do it in a private message or on a notecard, to spare everyone the "discussion about the discussion".

Why, so you can't be proven wrong in public? No need. Everyone with even a passing familiarity with your posts is well aware of your frequent claims to be speaking on behalf of the downtrodden who are under the thumb of the elite.

Exactly my point, thank you.

What I find interesing about this discussion is the extent to which voters seem to agree that its all of us. Yet, in day to day activities, actions often tell a very different story.

All of the contention one encounters; the builds that seem to be inconsiderate of others, etc, etc. Those actions seem to demonstrate that in /practice/ community is "me and mine" ...

There seems to be a disconnect then between words and actions. Perhaps because in something like this we give the "right answer", the one we know is expected. And we aren't generally held accountable for connecting out words and out actions and making them match. If you are still reading, its cookie time. And, when someone does try to explicitly discuss this discrepancy, we get defensive, with all the emotional reactions that generall engenders.

In any event, I just wanted to point out how much the comparison of answers I see in this poll and actions inWorld and inForums struck me.

BTW, I disagree about "no one leads" ... any time you have more than two people together, someone is leading. To claim otherwise completely defies common sense and human nature.

What Linden Lab calls "the community" is actually a population. It's even gotten large enough for them to view us, and what's best for us, statistically rather than having to gauge the opinions of individuals and small groups.

The population is composed of several communities. Some of them are large, welcoming groups; others are more reserved and gated. Some are centered on popular people, others on projects, preferences or themes.

community and human nature are not really the same thing. How people consider their actions in relation to the rest of the population varies greatly from person to person. It would be great if everyone thought about those things and acted accordingly, but that'll never happen.



I guess it depends on your definition, but I'd imagine who people look up to as community leaders is pretty subjective and varies from person to person. Given that, it's hard to claim there are really leaders in the strict sense... they exist only in the subjective opinion sense. That doesn't factor into how I view the community at large.

You know what, often (maybe always) the community leaders are just those who happen to care passionately and persistently about something and are vocal about it, in addition to whatever actual skills they may bring to the table. That is true in real life, too.

Which makes ME a community leader! And Prokofy! And you, Chip!

coco

Um, no, just to spare everybody the usual snarky discussion-about-the-discussion. I do think it would be a helpful exercise for you to come up with some actual quotes, as distinct from anecdotal impressions and received-wisdom.

I think Jim is absolutely on the money, that there's what "we are supposed to say" and what "we really believe". And they are at odds.

It took me awhile to realize that there was no community in SL that I felt 100%comfortable in. Quite by accident I am now a member of a small community of friends that shares such common ideals as preservation of Second Life's woodlands and kindness to other citizens and I am very happy.

I see no reason for me to try to force others to change their ideals to fit into my community nor do I see a reason for me change myself to fit in somewhere else.

Just like a large country Second Life seems to be made up of many communities instead of one huge cookiecutter community.

It appears that most posters seem to agree that the Welcome Area has turned into an Unwelcome Area but what to do about it is the question. I would be glad to put something in the voting thingy but there have been so many good suggestions it would be 20 pages long!

The easiest solution, by far, is for for the current trash talkers and "entertainers" to learn some respect for others but that ain't going to happen. I have no idea where to go from here.

Here's just one. I have no desire to reread your posts. They were painful enough the first time around...



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Yes, that is an important distinction. Implicit in the word community is commonality. People tend to not be where they dont feel that they share interests or beliefs in common with others. They are not comfortable. They literally do not "fit in."

The interesting thing with many of the poll response choices is the built in contradiciton. Since the concept of community suggests commonality and inclusion, here we are presented with answer choices that segregate. The choices inject an element that controverts the premise..why is that.

Community for me is the public expression of our inner values which creates a harmony of all different communities. This is best seen as our ability to play, work and love one another. This happens in a world of free people whose hearts and minds are in balance.

Where better then SL to create such a world?

And all this time I thought "community" meant "people who vote falsely on selected polls because it amuses them to see recalcitrant pollsters draw invalid conclusions from self-selected data, entered by mendacious weasels onto biased polls".

Hmmm... guess I need a better dictionary.

I'm hard put to see how this is any kind of statement that makes me out to be "speaking on behalf" of these people. It's just a commentary, pointing out the obvious fact that there are loads of new people coming in with their own aspirations who don't hook up to old player networks and who don't read the forums. That's a pretty self-evident thing.

If you don't find it true, then it means you think:

o new people are iimpressed with the vitriol and personal attacks they see coming from older players on the forums
o new people aren't afraid to post and we have scores of new people not only posting but taking very contrarian opinions to the status quo ante
o you believe you and your friends run the game and "are the community" i.e. if I point out the obvious fact to anybody that "you can't run the game" your reply then would be (if you think my previous post was false) "oh yes we can".
o some people think they run the land business and wish to keep others out of it (again, if you think my past post was false, then you'd be saying, oh but they do run it and don't try to interfere).
o there are thousands and thousands of people who follow every twist and turn on the forums disputes and scandals
o there are thousands and thousands of people who know who you are or who I am

and since you can't possibly think at least some of those things, because common sense tells ut they aren't true then you might want to revisit your position that my statement is "false" or "speaking on behalf of other people".

Don't get hooked by the Master Baiter Chip!

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