Troubling Parallels to Reality

Enebran and Tread, great posts, thank you.

I've not been in the welcome section of the mainland in several months (I spent most of my time at my old land in Boardman or at Telador - and now at my new land), so did not know the situation.

Personally I won't make major comments on what's been done for another month (though I've made general posts here and there). If there is still major debate about it then I'll join in full force. A SysAdmin working in the Financial sector should make for more interesting debate, yes, but there's enough of that now.

While I completely agree with the relatively minor impact the changes will have for everyone, other than perhaps GOM stabalizing a bit -- I must admit a slight concern over some of the terms I see getting flung about. I remember when Michi said 'Content Baron' as a complete joke and while it continues to be a joke, I worry when I hear the term 'Basic Account' almost taking on derogatory notions.

I'll admit most of the complaining and silly protests have been made by people on basic accounts who simply wish to hang out -- but at the same time, some of the folks I've listened to on IRC, SL, here, et al. seem to be granting themselves some sort of special social status for creating or paying land tier fees. Sure, it adds more cash to LL, but it's not as if the basic accounts aren't part of the whole 'eco-system' here.

I think I had a point here somewhere. If someone can find it, there's a reward for its return. I think I have some rice crackers in my pantry...

<sigh>

Again, you've entirely missed my point. Here's the Cliff's Notes.

Primary:

1. People who believe that content creators don't deserve their wealth are being unfair.
2. People who believe that content creators shouldn't be compensated are being foolish.
3. People who believe that the economy should not be managed and protected are being myopic.

Secondary:

1. I love the creative genius of the most successful of all content generators.
2. Productive individuals deserve respect, never disdain.
3. Yay business!

If you're going to offer any further comment on this subject, stick to trying to refute the above points. Everything you've mentioned thus far is red herring and does not apply to the extremist whackos with whom I am taking issue. Discussions on the nature or appropriateness of economic controls belong elsewhere. This is simply a discussion of needless division among otherwise good people.

Trump was funded by his Father who was in Real Estate, however; I do appreciate all Designers and Merchants, if it wasn't for them; there would be nothing to buy.

Thanks for your kind words, Enebran. Much appreciated.

Beyala -

Its been debated on other threads here; but I'll repeat:

The distinction isn't that Premium-Accounts are "nobler" and Basic Accounts are "scum" -

Its that Premium Accounts deserve a better/bigger level of compensation because they're paying more;

And Basic Accounts are quite alright as long as they are positive members of society. As long as people are positive in their social interactions, contribute to SL's content, or do any one of a bunch of useful things in the world, they are a GoodThing(tm) to have around!

The Basic Accounts we can do without are the people who are solely concerned with trying to make lots of money and/or believe that they are entitled to everything without having to put any effort out. These people are a drain on both LL's servers and our social community.

Take care,

No, actually, I know exactly what it is I've seen. The term 'scum' was actually flung around in that context at two distinct points in my presence. I wasn't actually implying all are associating the two terms, but I do think the mentality there exists and should be dealt with as it surfaces just as one would against the 'Content Barons'.

Thank you Enabran and Tread, those are such good posts.

I take exception to Templar's use of class strife in terms of producers and consumers in that he only considered producers who produced hard and measurable goods. Purveyors of services and events are ignored. I argue that events management is certainly productive, but now it is only to be compensated consumeristically. Perhaps all production should be, to some level, publicly as well as privately compensated. Societies have traditionally underwritten certain costs and pooled resources to encourage behaviours thought to be good for the community. The way I see it, arts and culture have just summarily become privatized with no system in place (other than a grace period for events. ty for that at least *kisses foot of contributor, thank you lindens!!!**gets used to bowing and scraping*) with no system in place, I say, to bridge current successes in our culture that we would like to retain.

So what this means is that it is up to private individuals to support events if you want them. The community truly is what you make of it. Will people implement some kind of fund for arts and culture? Will patrons pay to come attend events? This is all up to us. I personally would be for a tax system (a minute tax on goods, services or property) to subsidize the arts and culture of Second Life with some widely accepted evaluative system in place. For instance, would you support an event that encouraged growth in the fields of Performing Arts? Would you support an event that encouraged Architectural excellence? Would you support an event that encouraged the growth of writers, painters, actors, musicians and sculptors in the context of Second Life? It will not happen without you. I can bring you events, but you have to want em and pay for them. (costs have been offloaded onto the public.) The significant effect is that the event must be paid for by the public that consumes it. Events cannot be seen also as a monetary source (save for the introduction of gambling) for those who attend.

Also(insert shameless plug here) due to the creation of the F.U. fund, Cherry Took events continue through the end of January.

Enabran Templar, I'm going to sound a note of dissent to your post despite the stampede of support. Many people have accused me of expressing vitriol or venom against the "content barons" (as you dubbed them) or the "inner, feted elite" as I called them. First of all, I'm not spewing venom, but questioning subsidizing and favoring -- that's different. It's because players like me stood up and questioned the incubator program and its unjustifiable and non-transparent process that it is now ended. It's not clear if the other types of awards continue (i.e. development awards) but we are well on our way to ending company-induced randomness or favoritism by the end of the "Top Picks" system run soley by the Lindens, and changing it to an auctioned sponsored link system.

I appreciate people who make content. But I believe they don't deserve to get a special subsidy from Linden Labs just because they were beta testers, or old players, or especially talented players and happened to master these often intricate features of content creation for the game. I don't think they should get incubated, feted, cossetted, grandfathered, or really get any special treatment at all. They should charge money, like everybody else does for their goods and services, and they should probably get paid a lot for what they do.

They should sink or swim like any other business in SL, on par with all citizens of SL, and not become a special, celebrated class of people just because they've mastered the levers of the game controls -- building and scripting.

If Linden Labs thinks the game is so difficult that it has to have all these remedial classes then it should have paid staff on its payroll who provide these services and that might help them realize just what their problems are in growing this game. By using Linden play money to subsidize those who instruct (and in the past using incubator entitlements and developer awards as well as dwell awards), they are creating an artificial environment that precludes them and us from getting the economic feedback they need to see what are the obstacles to their game product's continued development.

It's not just me who points this out, but many people who are wailing about the economic changes and asking "what about the poor" and "what about those who aren't creative but just want to socialize". These are legitimate questions.

What you fail to realize is that the attitude you describe of those who don't think anything should be sold in LL (or sold for a $1) in fact is MOST prevalent among this old creative intelligentsia -- not among spoiled clubbers. It's the old players who have been here since beta or at at least a long time that think this should be a wiki. They think each time they make a script it should be put in the public domain and open sourced to advance the total knowledge of the game. This is admirable, but it is a different culture, enterprise, and overall game genre than the game genre the masses are playing. If the purpose was to work on game mechanics, it makes sense to keep the population small and reward everybody who advances game technology.

But isn't SL growing behind this now? Isn't it out of beta? Hasn't it been tested and grown for 2 years? Doesn't have have a remarkable doubling of its customers in the last year? Doesn't it expect millions to come in the door? So why this attitude that we're all building a wiki here, all expected to give for free and hence be subsidized, an attitude that first and foremost comes from the creative content providers more often than not, not from clubbers? And isn't it the case that the content providers and wiki-types are the ones most venomous to people who buy and sell land as a business, or who create clubs in which the chief activity is sex or ratings? As content providers, they turn up their noses at such low-brow activities because they think they are advancing the frontiers of science and technology with their grasping of co-signs in the math needed to build circles, or in the physics needed to send objects whirling around. But they tend to think that clubs and malls don't belong in their laboratory! These scientists are just on another plane of reality -- call it finer, if you will -- than the clubbers who just want to decorate their avatars and either just get laid or have a romantic relationship. But they must realize that these masses of clubbers are the chief customers for their content creation and currently they are deprived of that feedback mechanism.

There are certain posters who really, really hate the "commercialization" of SL and its focus on money, and they mourn the demise of "their game". There is conflict between those people who just want this to be a creative Internet game development wiki and those who want it as a play space for their RL-like endeavors of dating or making a house. The only way that SL can comfortably accommodate these different classes with different goals is to create a level playing field for everybody. That means everybody gets their 512 tier and their $500 a week and nobody gets event subsidies or gets any kind of favorite status.

Philip Linden said he didn't care what players wanted to do -- they can do what they want and it's not up to him to dictate player content or activities. And yet his grant system still rewards his mentors and instructors.

I'm hammering on this little point not because I don't appreciate mentors and instructors who have helped me and others learn the game. It's because I think they should charge money, and be paid handsomely, but by customers in the game, not by the game company. This will keep them competitive in a real market of goods and services, and when they are paid by land barons and clubbers, they will reduce their resentment towards them -- the kind of resentment instinctively sensed by land barons and clubbers and then pitched back at content creators.

Sweet Jesus!

I thought we broke you of your excessive verbosity. I think you should know, that most people, when looking at a monolith of text like that, will just skim the first paragraph and move on.

~Ulrika~

Make no mistake, I don't care about people who don't want L$ exchanged. They can give away their stuff ane be happy.

My admiration belongs to the virtual entrepreneurs of our world. I am not one of those people. I pay my $21 every three months, collect a bit of cash, and buy a little more when I need it.

Life becomes much easier when you accept that you have no right to anyone else nor does anyone else have a right to you. The conditions are irrelevant. Not enough money? Work a little harder. Can't get the goods you want? Chat with the creator and trade for services.

Value buys value and that concept knows no borders, no mediums, no physicality.

I don't want to argue with anyone about advanced economic theory or the Linden measures or anything else. I'm sick of it all. My point is secondary to all of that. People deserve just compensation for their work. The definition of just will be provided by the market.

One last thing: no one ever rose to the top of a game by sitting still on the first level. The reward has always been in the challenge.

Perfect example of attitude I am talking about. The presumption that there is a "we" and that it "breaks" people. If a post is too long, don't read it. It's just put up for the record. Instead of putting in 10 posts answering 10 people, I answer a number of thoughts in one post.

I don't think you and I were living in the same world David. But then, everyone always seems to be shocked to learn that *I* have no money, I never trade on GOM or IGE, and I actually get snide remarks (either public or private) if I dare win a contest at an event. AND I sell stuff, AND I attend events, AND I host events, AND I know so so many people. My sales were going down really. No one wants to pay $70 for an entire outfit when they think the one for $800 is going to get the more recognition.

And seriously, no offense to those who charged as much for their clothing. For me, I say everyone should charge what they feel comfortable with, and let the consumer decide. But when you have people walking around being able to throw out 4K a day like it is nothing, why would they have a need to look twice at anything other than "name brand" or "best made". And why should the top designers charge less? If people will pay for it, what does it matter?

It *does* matter.. to those who are starting out. To those who do not have the skills to design above and beyond the best. Hell, I *NEVER* asked for handouts. I think these changes are for the best and one reason is because they finally put the little guy back in competition with the big guy! Don't punish those who DO want to work and give to the community.. just to satisfy those who want to do nothing and get something.

Prokofy, please provide evidence that oldtime players and top content producers achieved their success through Linden subsidies, receive special favors from the Lindens, or any other of your mindless accusations.

As one of the top earning content producers in the game how many times do you think I've spoken to a Linden? After two years I still don't run out of fingers. I've used techical support all of one time, and I have never contacted LL for customer service of any other kind. Your paranoid fantasies about the way the SL world works are just that... paranoid, and baseless. On behalf of everyone who has worked their ass off to get where they are in SL, and with all due respect, blow it out your ass.

Proof?

Here's just one:

Congratulations to the December winners of the US$ awards based on dwell

Geez, how come you aren't in the list? Didn't work hard enough?

Let people who work their ass off charge money for their services or goods and get paid well -- that I can respect. Let them not be subsidized. Let them not hate their customers and the other classes of non-creative, non-elite.



It's natural that you resent someone who challenges the subsidy of top content-producers.
It's not personal. It's about the economy.

I don't intend to blow anything out of my ass or any other orifice.

My original flame war started with Ulrika, over Neualtenberg, and her campaign of hate to tax land barons and group leaders. I think you'd agree with me, not her, that such people shouldn't be taxed or punished. I pointed out that she was especially undermined in her cause by being in a group that never paid money for their land but just paid tier, in a subsidized program. There have been other subsidized programs. I've questioned whether this is the way to grow the game.

I could provide many examples of my points but why continue this, and why make it personal and nasty? Let content providers charge money, let people pay, let the Lindens stop paying -- it's how you make an economy, even a virtual one, and it's how you grow the game.

I've been on the list before, but my business isn't dwell based. If you have problems with specific linden policies or specific players that you think are getting special treatment then be specific. I'm really sick of your generalizations and general scorn for anyone successful in SL.
You say you don't hate the "feted inner core" and yet you've posted about 50,000 words of disdain for them, which is a lot considering it doesn't actually exist You're not pointing out class warfare. You're creating it. If you care about SL and seeing it grow and prosper then stop trying to incite resentment towards the people who have done the most to help SL grow from a few hundred people to over 20,000. You've already made it personal and nasty by painting a whole segment of the SL population with such a vitriolic brush. If you don't care to blow anything out of your ass you might want to stop talking out of it.

I'm SOO glad I waited to neg rate Prof... now with the $25 charge, it is going to be so much sweeter.

hehe

The Lindens' payout of US cash is part of a business model: reward outside content developers so as to preclude the need for in-house developers.

"Winning" is not a subsidy. Winning implies competition. Bravo to the winners. Moreover, the subsidy in question is irrelevant to the discussion. It was awarded in USD, not L$.

Resentment will always follow success. But like any faithful shadow, the accomplishments it accompanies will always be more vivid.

You have a great perspective Enebran. Apologies for sullying the thread. I usually try to be very civil. Some things just get under my skin.

The subject at hand is a muddy one. No worries.

When I initially posted, I did so with the belief that the opinion I was offering was so self-evident, it invited no debate. Silly me; this is the internet after all.

It doesn't matter. Those deserving of praise have heard it. Much love to the business folk and all others who understand that no man can be slave to any other.

I have the sudden urge to reread Atlas Shrugged

You have in no way ever shown how content produces are subsidized. Look more closely at the list you provided as "proof". Jenna Fairplay is hardly a long established player and content creator, yet magically she's at the top of the list. Nearly half of the people on that list have been in SL for less than a year. It is sad when the thing you offer up as proof doesn't even begin to illustrate your point. This is so tiresome, Prokofy.

Geez, Cristiano, that list is full of content-providers and older players. The list is a feting, for sure LOL. If you pull out of it a few who are newer or don't actually have any content to show for themselves, what of it? The center of gravity of that list is ppl who drew traffic to their lots because of content creation. Less than a year -- but that's more than 3 months.

Do you know the award difference between first and second place? It is significant, it goes down quite rapidly to a point where people near the middle and bottom get a whopping $25 USD or so. Again, the fact that the number one player on the list has only been here since August and is not a content producer invalidates your point, no matter how much you try to claim it proves it. The center of gravity is who wins out the list - it is a competition for top spots and money, and dwell is king (sorry, traffic now).

I will also add that I made it onto developer incentive lists 4 times, at a time when I created nothing - simply from having several large parties, unsubsidized by LL. Your new rally is now against content producers, but many people on that list are not there for their content. Le Cadre, for example, while filled with great content, stays on the chart because of the events held at the clubs - shopping is incidental to dwell overall - unless you have a lag bomb of a place, people tend not to spend enough time shopping to impact dwell. The bandwagon of the moment doesn't suit your argument, sorry.