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Troubling Parallels to Reality

Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
01-13-2005 23:41
Additionally, a performance based award is not a subsidy. A subsidy is a guaranteed payment - and there are no guarantees with developer incentives - they have varied wildly from month to month. The top places on that list work their asses off to stay on that list, and even so, they fluctuate based on the fickleness of players. Automatc stipends and guaranteed event payments are subsidies.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
01-13-2005 23:43
Prokofy, did it ever occur to you that you could get on that list too if you so desired and worked hard enough to build an attraction that draws a lot of people? What is it that you do/create/provide anyway? SL will never be a "fair" system. You can't spend hour upon hour button mashing to build artificial skills so that your cookie cutter archer/mage can be level 50 and have phat loot. To succeed in SL requires creativity and innovation and depends on real world skills, not luck or handouts. The developer incentives are an effect of success, not a cause.
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Anshe Chung
Business Girl
Join date: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 1,615
01-14-2005 03:29
How often again have to read this? It is always same: Somebody is not happy having less money than somebody else. Instead of finding ways to improve this situation looks for excuses. This is typical lazy bone looser mentality. Always blame the others, always blame the circumstance always pretend you are not responsible for own situation.

So you need RL money to make money in SL? What rubbish!

Or you need have joined one year ago and new user have no chance? Complete rubbish!

I joined last March, one year after many of beta people had already been in Second Life and amassed hundreds of thousands of L$. I did not bring more real life money than 9,95 US$ account. When I joined there existed established fashion designers, event hosts, clubs, escorts, land barons and so on. By logic I read in some posts on this thread I should never have been able get anywhere in Second Life. No real life money? Coming one year late? Did that stop me?

And there are many who came after me who nicely succeeded in SL. If you are poor in SL you ask yourself what you are doing wrong. The second week I was in SL I already earned 10000 L$ per week.
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Tcoz Bach
Tyrell Victim
Join date: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 973
01-14-2005 09:50
If you had the ability to throw events under the Lindens, you have the ability to make money in the world, unless you were simply gaming the system by throwing pointless and poorly run events to collect money and are now upset that you can't do it anymore.

If you never had any interest in building, scripting, events, or any of the other ways you can earn a buck around SL, well then, everything should be pretty much the same to you.

"But I have seen many state that it will make the rich richer and the poor poorer, which is a fact. "

I see no basis to assume this as a fact at all. Whether you agree or disagree with it, you are guessing; this will not be known as a fact, true or false, for months. However, after two years in this game, I do not believe it will work out this way at all. I have been notoriously critical of many changes to SL, but not this time. I won't be contrary for the sake of being so.

Ultimately I think people will be effected a lot less than many think. People are not suddenly going to go flat broke and be unable to do anything at all just because the ratings bump has been cut and you can't take money from the Lindens anymore. Just up the quality a little, give people something to walk away with, and charge a few bucks. You may find out you have more to do than ever.
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Barbarra Blair
Short Person
Join date: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 588
01-14-2005 10:05
I have nothing against the folks who just want to use Second Life for a chat room. Hey, I mean, that is kind of the point.

And certainly those who contribute the most to the world should be the most compensated.

However, I'd just like to see a good way for folks to earn some Linden's so they can buy my stuff, you see. I know that they dont NEED my stuff; but I get a kick out of selling stuff anyhow.

I don't want people to have to go buy Lindens for dollars. That would kill the game for sure.
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
01-14-2005 10:33
From: Barbarra Blair
I have nothing against the folks who just want to use Second Life for a chat room. Hey, I mean, that is kind of the point.

And certainly those who contribute the most to the world should be the most compensated.

However, I'd just like to see a good way for folks to earn some Linden's so they can buy my stuff, you see. I know that they dont NEED my stuff; but I get a kick out of selling stuff anyhow.

I don't want people to have to go buy Lindens for dollars. That would kill the game for sure.


The thing is, businesses in SL have the ability to provide those jobs and income for more casual players, it just seems in the pursuit of profits they would rather cash out than reinvest in players. This is not true across the board - but if more businesses in SL stepped up to the plate and provided a variety of jobs beyond escorts and stripping, it could help to keep players from being broke or having to buy currency, and also rewards those businesses by allowing them to be more productive - plus the flow of that currency back into the economy to buy items benefits everyone.

You will always have people who want something for nothing, that is human nature, and the lack of formal contracts makes hiring people in SL difficult, but I really think that providing varied jobs for people to earn L$ is a good thing, and something I would like to see more of. I am looking at ways myself to put my money where my mouth is and provide jobs - I have already made an offer to someone for $2000L a week to write a regular column for my site. I have a lot of other projects as well that I will probably outsource. Whether this will work out remains to be seen, but there are opportunities out there.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.

Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
Opposite of the Trend
03-23-2005 14:19
Actually it is the imaginative events that are suffering, in my opinion. The events on the schedule these days (aside from a small minority of maybe 3 or 4 per day) are those that require little to no preparation time. Games, once someone has hosted them before, net $L and pay for themselves, and require little to no preparation time.

People are willing to pay the $5 for an organized truth or dare game coz they know what it is and it is only $5. I have yet to see people (after the economic changes truly had an impact in late january) successfully host an event that charges more, that is attracting more than 3 or 4 people. At the $5/head (and the $1 for dwell i might get if people spend the majority of their time at my place and no place else) I will need to attract 41 people to the event to make the $250 that lindens paid the host before the cut. This isn't going to happen. Even if it did, the server wouldn't support it. We slow to the speed of paint drying with more than 15 people in the sim.

So, what I am saying is that when it comes down to the real numbers crunching, again and again, I do not see a way to sustain events without subsidy or without a SERIOUS mindshift in the population to be willing to pay $25/event. Even very high quality events (ones that people IM me to ask, hey when are you doing that again; I want to bring a friend next time) will not attract sufficient people paying sufficient amounts for events hosts to be paid what they were paid ($250). The only instance in which paying events hosts is worthwhile to land owners is when they are competing for the #1 spot in traffic. This means that the only ones who can pay events hosts and make their money back are the ones who are investing RL $USD and hoping to make it back.

From: Tcoz Bach
If you had the ability to throw events under the Lindens, you have the ability to make money in the world, unless you were simply gaming the system by throwing pointless and poorly run events to collect money and are now upset that you can't do it anymore.

. Just up the quality a little, give people something to walk away with, and charge a few bucks. You may find out you have more to do than ever.
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Events are everyone's business.
Nephilaine Protagonist
PixelSlinger
Join date: 22 Jul 2003
Posts: 1,693
03-23-2005 15:13
Thank you Enabran for a very encouraging post.

:)
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
03-23-2005 15:18
I like how Enabran expresses things. That, and our common Deus Ex interest... rur rur. :)

One of the principal reasons I came to SL was to enjoy cool stuff and celebrate the creators of said cool stuff, who are hopefully also cool people. :)

One of them just posted on top of me. :D
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Marker Dinova
I eat yellow paperclips.
Join date: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 608
03-23-2005 15:28
From: David Valentino
To many folks, the in-world economy was doing just fine.



The lindens can see so many variables that many folks can't.. it gives them a better perspective to be able to truely say if the in-world economy was doing fine or not.
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The difference between you and me = me - you.
The difference between me and you = you - me.

add them up and we have

2The 2difference 2between 2me 2and 2you = 0

2(The difference between me and you) = 0

The difference between me and you = 0/2

The difference between me and you = 0

I never thought we were so similar :eek:
Icon Serpentine
punk in drublic
Join date: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 858
03-23-2005 16:01
From: Tread Whiplash
David (and others who agree with his sentiments):

1) Practically EVERY item sold in-game is a "luxury" that you do not need, to "play the game" or enjoy any of the experiences offered in SL. So all this talk about people "needing" good amounts of money - or "needing" to be able to buy things or they'll suffer is just complete crap.

Bottom line: People got used to getting money for free; and that's a bad assumption / psychology. As some people put it: Its a welfare state. L$50 per week is L$200 per month - which is plenty of money to travel around the world, engage in social experiences, check out people's creative builds, and build your own things - all of which are pretty much free. The only exceptions are events people charge for, and the cost to upload textures/sounds/animations.

2) It is not a fact that the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. What is a fact, is that players who pay LindenLab for a Premium Account will get more money than the rest of us. Guess what? Those Premium Accounts pay the bills to keep SL running! People that want to be able to buy lots of items in game have three very easy options: (1) pay for a premium account and reap the benefits, (2) use real-world money to buy L$ from GOM/IGE, (3) create content in-game, host events & charge money for them, become an instructor - do something that is an effort; and therefore worth rewarding with money. Yes, this means its easier for people with more US$ to earn more money in-game... But it doesn't matter what country you're talking about: people in the real-world with more money always have advantages over people with less money. Its not right, and its not fair - but its the way the real-world works, sadly. You will not change human nature or world-policy by trying to rebel against it here.

Conversely - SL provides more "free" ways to make in-game money than anywhere else online or in the real-world. There are no manufacturing costs, no labor costs, little or no tools to buy, no need for real-estate, to be able to create things... With a modest amount of effort, you can change your socio-economic position in SecondLife much, much more easily than in real-life!

Simply having a pulse is not worth paying you for! If it was worth money, why aren't we all throwing cash at people as they pass us on the streets of SL? No - the only reason people feel entitled to a lot of money is because they got used to LindenLab subsidizing us. Well, the free-ride is over. There is no reason to reward people with lots of cash, simply for sitting around in-game or clicking on each others' Ratings. If I can make as much money with a few ratings clicks as Joe Blow can by paying LL US $10/month, then Joe Blow is getting a raw deal - and LL is perfectly within their rights to change that situation. Those of us on free accounts may not like it; but you know what? We should - because the more money LL makes, the longer SL will be around - and the longer we get to play with the fruits of everyone's work!

3) As long as more people are joining and LindenLab is paying out "free" money every week, the economy is inflating. Even if they give out just the base stipend, they're still adding money to the economy. So all this talk about prices and such as it relates to GOM or land-prices is just talk - the fact is that the economy is being filled with L$ - you can debate the rate or its effects; but not that it is happening.

And as long as a Base Stipend exists - you do not have to get a job or create content to make money in SL! You may have to save your L$ over a slightly longer period, to afford some things... But you know, we have to do that in RL sometimes, too! At least in SL rent, food, gas, utility, insurance, and clothing aren't necessary expenses that suck down our "spendable cash"... Its all optional!

No other commercial online game in the history of mankind has let you buy-in for so little money, play for free forever in a persistant world, or create your own content and modify the world around you to the same degree that SecondLife does.

Its a hell of a deal, when compared to any other contemporary MMO - take EQ for example:

CODE

Game: SL EQ
-------- ---- ----
Initial Cost: $10 $50
Smallest Monthly Cost: $0 $10 - $15
Smallest Weekly Stipend: L$50 0 - You must kill or craft.
Land Ownership/Rental: YES NO
Land Mod./Creation: YES NO
Custom Animations: YES NO
Custom In-Game structures: YES NO
Custom Vehicles & Physics: YES NO
Custom Textures: YES NO
Custom Sounds: YES NO
Streaming Audio: YES NO
Custom Events: YES NO
Custom Scripts/Programs: YES NO

...The list goes on.... It is obvious which game provides the best deal; even after these changes!

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)



And to strengthen your point, it's not always a disadvantage to be poor. Wealth and worldly posessions tie you down and limit what you can do. The more you accumulate, the more you have to carry.

As well, those who deserve it, get it. If I make a few million dollars one day, it's not because someone fought to make everyone equal. It'll be because I worked for it, I took risks, and earned it.

The "content barons" who produce stuff spend hours of the real life time doing it. If you try and make good clothes up to the standards of Neph, Torrid, or Mistress M -- you'll be spending hours upon hours working at it. It's not easy and anyone that puts that much effort into SL deserves props.

It's all about respect.
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