ok, your av vs. your gender

I think a lot about how this issue will continue to grow and grow in the future. Right now, things are still mostly surface issues, because virtual worlds are not yet truly immersive, and there are limits to how thoroughly you can change your real body to match who you are inside. (I've struggled over that part for longer than I care to think about.)

But this won't always be the case. I've been following a lot of converging technology trends which suggest that in the next decade or two the question of what someone's "real" self, gender, age, or what have you, will get much harder to define. Or rather, you'll have to deal with people being what they actually want to be, instead of what nature stuck them with.

-Truly immersive virtual realities, where people control and experience the feelings and body movements of their avatars through direct brain-to-computer interfaces.

-Regenerative medicine, allowing the regrowth and reshaping of all parts of the body, including the skeleton.

-Youth and longevity therapies that actually work. Much of this remains speculative, but certain mice are already benefiting from genetic changes and drugs that do extend their healthy lives considerably. For instance, an alteration that eliminates a protein that causes inflammation has produced mice that are virtually immune to obesity, diabetes, and related health problems. The researchers who made these mice now have a drug that suppresses the protein, with similar health results in normal mice.

-Fertility research is rapidly approaching the point where a couple could combine their genes and produce a child, regardless of their own sexes. (Of course a biological female would still need to carry the child to term, but this isn't forever true, either.)

-And further down the road, nanotechnology holds out the ultimate promise in both threads. You'll be able to integrate nanocomputers into your brain which allow direct access to virtual reality and any of the information on the nets just by thinking about it. And in nanomedicine you'll be able to modify your body to fit your desires right down to the cellular level, and do it again when you change your mind.

All this is coming sooner or later, barring some catastrophic failure of civilization along the way. So, will you be able to open your mind and accept that people will express themselves how they want, or will you always consider that people are lying, and that only the bodies they were born with are the truth?

No, the comparison is very inaccurate. I wouldn't give heroine(sic) to anyone.

Me either. I'd charge street price for it.

I'm happily partnered with a man and have been for the past year, actually. And he's quite supportive of my gender weirdness, in SL and IRL.

If someone's in an intimate relationship online, then yes, that sort of thing should be disclosed before things get too far. But, for general relations with other people, I don't see how it matters one bit.

I'm male and I have both a male and female AV, and I am not "sick" as another poster has positted.

I don't believe in disclosure unless the relationship crosses into RL at which point it becomes lying.

See, I look at SL as a collective dream. We are who we present ourselves to be in that dream. If someone presents themselves as a wolf, a vampire, a child, I interact with them in that capacity. It's their dream and I'm just a guest and vice versa.

Another reason I don't disclose is because people inevitably behave differently toward the AV when they know about the person at the keyboard. It's hard to stay in this lucid dream we're sharing if someone keeps reminding you to wake up.

While I feel that I've poured my soul in my male AV insomuch as he is very much imbued with me (with more emphasis on my dark side perhaps), I've divorced myself from my female AV as completely as I can. She is truly her own person. She doesn't share my interests or my biases. For instance, I never take her into The Sandbox where I spend most of my forum time. It would be unethical to use a female AV to support my opinions in there because her sex may give her more "legitimacy" on certain topics. Add to the fact that I would make me feel like I'm running around in a dress...

Those who've known me IRL for a long time, including one friend who has known me for almost a decade and another for more than five years, agree that they don't see me in her.

I think it comes from being a writing. In order to write realistic characters, I have to live in the characters, or rather, let them live in me. It's almost like channeling these people.

It's not deception anymore than someone presenting themselves as a werewolf or alien is deception.

While many SL couples have made the jump to RL, that is not the idea behind SL. You might be better served by Match.com.

More on this topic in an earlier thread:
/108/91/70746/1.html

-Kiamat Dusk

@Kiamat

A writer indeed. That was a beautiful read.

I feel similarly, as one who is a tabletop roleplayer that prefers character-driven roleplaying.

Though I do not roleplay in SL (yet) and just am mostly myself just making things, I do understand and support that shared dream. For me, being able to make the stuff I do is already the dream. For others, it's being in another skin (or fur or metal or ... whichever).

As long as no one crosses the dangerous line, I'm fine with what they do.

And yes, I don't care about disclosure until a relationship whether romantic, business, or friendship will make that jump to reality.

In case anyone needs to know, I am not a 6'4" Irish cyborg, but beyond that it's mostly me. Aodhan (actually without a surname) is one of my RPG characters, and in a way, the SL version can be thought of as a distantly alternate-timeline incarnation.

SL is like a dream world. You can be whatever you want, whether it's some repressed fantasy (and when I say fantasy I'm not necessarily talking about a sexual fantasy) or what you really are, or what you wish you might be in the future, or whether you're just wanting to get to experience something that's completely the opposite of what you are in real life, or what not. That's one of the things that I think is so cool about SL. The fact that anyone I run into in SL I don't know who or what they are in real life is kind-of cool--I'm dealing with what people are wanting to be at the moment, and I think it's a beautiful thing. It's the ultimate in self-expression.

I'm a man, and my character in SL is a man, and I try to make my character be more close to what I work at being more like in real life, and I don't always get treated "great" for the way that I appear and act in SL, but that's fine, it's something I have to get used to if I plan on being more that way in real life.

I am a female that plays a female. I have no issue with anyone who wants to play other genders. If you have a friend in SL and you find out they are not the gender their AV is, that doesn't change WHO they are, it just changes whats between their legs. Get over it and accept someone for who they are...

My cat, Miranda, likes to play as a dog. Would that bother you?

Said my piece, ty

Lilly

So, here I sat, bored one day reading this post. To my surprise I just had a good old laugh. One of you, has a friend that is not who they appear to be. I wondered if you even know. How well do you know your friends???

ooh I messed up, I voted female that plays male, but I do play both.
I wonder how many people that voted female playing female are actually guys.... haha.
Silly trannies, there are no girls on the internet!

As with any game, the imagination is endless in SL. You can be who or what you want to be. You can act how you want to act.

But there is a line of integrity and ethics that each individual must look at. How you treat others in this fantasy game is how you are seen. If you want to be male or female.

The biggest issue here is hurting someone by not being honest. This goes into your SL relationships. Oh how many are looking for that person who will light up thier world and make everything all better. What you don't realize is that whether you are playing a male or female. That wanting person is looking for more. We all have seen it and listened to someone who got burned in one way or another.

I have many friends in game that are not what they appear. Who cares? Remember it is a game where you can be what you want.

The only time it matters is when you are playing that "supposed game relationship". Watch out cause many of the people in SL are looking for more. Know your partner and ask them right out. "This is only game and will only be game right?"

Since I started SL I hae seen so many in here that are lonely and this is thier place to think they will find someone who will be in real life also. BEWARE for that person is not who you think they are. Not all mind you. Just remember it is your choice to believe.

I myself have been duped. Learned from it and realize that yes, this is a game. A very realistic one at that.

Be who you want to be whether yourself or someone you would never be. Rule of thumb is as in real life. Honesty is the best policy.

I think that everyone should be forced to have a full frontal naked picture of themselves in their profile. That way we can be sure they are not lying about their genitals, their race, their weight, their age, their eye color, their tattoos or if they dye their hair (hm-mm, genital shaving should be prohibited also in the interest of honesty, how else can you tell their real hair color?).

And don't forget, documentation on marital status, notarized list of all cosmetic surgery, current venereal diseases, and current bank accounts.

Anything less than such a picture and other documenting material is obvious proof that they are lying about themselves in SL. Such dishonest individuals deserve keelhauling or other equivalent punishments.

I'm actually going to some lengths to make my av look like the RL me, despite the fact that I'm a fat, bald, and ugly male. I'm a very honest person that wants to be appreciated for who I am. I really dislike it when people want me to be something that I am not.

My av isn't perfect yet, but it's getting closer all the time.

You forgot a gender option.

Hermaphrodite or Transgendered.

I'm male and play a multi-gendered individual. So there.

Sorry to be pedantic, but that's two options.

Let's not play stupid for the sake of political correctness, ok?

The ONLY kitsune related ANYTHING I've ever seen is in the furry community - perhaps since you are a barely a month old you don't realize that. - So it is not unreasonable for me to assume that a person named Kitsune was a three tailed furry fox before thinking they were just a RL fox lover.

And I know ALOT of furries (Im sure more than you) that are not herms either, it still does not change the fact that every herm experience I have had has been with a furry. So, YES, it IS A FURRY THING. Until I see at least ONE non-furry humanoid that's a herm in SL, then it will remain a furry thing. And last I checked, "Packin Heat" is a furry herm group in which no non-furs are a part of.

Jeebus, if I had ever met a non-furry herm in SL i would not have made the remark, and just because I made the remark does not say something negative about furries.

Briana Dawson

The most interesting thing I find about polls like these is the ratio of men playing females in contrast to the much lower percentage of females playing males.

It says something about our society.

Well, I have met such a person. No names, but this person has two avatars I have seen; a gender-unmarked bear (as in teddy bear, not as in androgynous), and an otherwise normal human hermaphrodite.

So there. It's not just a furry thing.

LOL but it's still a person who is usually a furry but just happens to change avatars to do the herm thing. ok, no correlation there.

Briana Dawson

What do it tell?

/Tina

Kind of ironic, considering a lot of men RL tend to think women want to be of the male species for "equality"

Let's not play stupid for the sake of being stupid, ok? Go ahead and google the term kitsune. Heck, SL search the term and you'll see that it's used in releationship to japanese shinto shrines. I just did and you know whay my results under "classifieds" was? A bunch of links to Final Fantasy and Kingdom Heart, and two Japanese shrines. Furthermore, do you understand that the term Kitsune is found in a lot of anime? One of the main characters in Love Hina just happens to be called Kitsune (Konno Mitsune), plush you have Shippo from Inu Yasha, and the kitsune is a common element in anime? Just because you're older SL-wise dosen't mean that you actually know what you are talking about, so don't pull that naive little trick again.

I do find this one fascinating -- in a number of ways.

First, anecdotal evidence (I don't have hard numbers) suggests that women playing men is far less common in SL than it is on other MMORPGs. I believe that we have created a society in SL that is much more friendly to women than other online games/worlds are, and one that that is more friendly than RL often is. I see little or no sign of discrimination against women here in Second Life; many of our prominent businesspeople and other leaders are female. SL has less emphasis on traditional male roles (especially combat, which is so prevalent in many MMORPGs), and more on social interaction. And, if anything, the retail part of SL discriminates against men; far more SL products are targeted at women. As a result, women feel much less need to play as men here, and men have more incentive to try playing as women.

Second, we have created a (mostly) safe society. In Second Life (when it works properly; please save discussions of bugs for another thread), it is impossible to be robbed, raped, or murdered (except in the rare unsafe areas, and even then murder is temporary). The whole issue of physical power imbalance that colors gender relations in RL is taken off the table, so one of the big disadvantages that women have in RL is gone. Verbal harassment is still possible, but even that is much easier to escape here than in RL; you can always mute the offender, teleport away, or simply leave the world altogether. Furthermore, I suspect that text-based harassment simply doesn't have the same power that oral harassment in RL has, especially when the latter is backed by the possible use of force.

One corollary: since all SL sex is consentual, women have to take responsibility for their sexuality here. No always means no, so you have to say yes when yes is what you want to say, which is a very different dynamic from RL. You can't pretend that you were coerced into doing something; at some point, you CHOOSE to get on that poseball or say "Yes" when somebody asks for permission to animate your avatar.

Third, being a woman in SL is very much the good parts version, compared to RL. Looking good here just isn't nearly as much effort; it doesn't take an hour to put get your outfit and makeup together, and you don't have to spend hours in the gym maintaining the perfect body. Nor is it as expensive -- even the most outlandishly expensive SL outfit doesn't cost more than US$5. And in the eternal springtime of SL, we don't ever have to worry about our bodies getting old and undesirable, or have to spend thousands of dollars on cosmetic surgery to try to stave off the inevitable.

As a result of all of this, we have a society where the power balance between men and women is very different from RL society. In RL, there is an tradeoff between looking sexy and being taken seriously; look too good, and people assume that you are a brainless bimbo. And there is a certain logic to this; looking really good in RL is so time-consuming that it necessarily comes at the expense of other things. If you're putting in the hours to be a rocket scientist, you simply can't possibly look like a fashion model; you won't have the time! In SL, it's a different story. I am an instructor here, and I teach classes in outfits that I would never dream of wearing in a similar context in RL -- and I can because people still take me seriously as a teacher when I choose to look my sexy best.

Taking physical force off the table changes the power balance. Many of the traditional tactics that men use to achieve power in relationships don't work here, since you can't physically intimidate anybody. But the power of appearance and allure, traditionally female territory (at least in modern western society), is alive and well, even if it seems silly that a consciously created appearance should have that power. And trust me, it does; I've seen how changing my avatar appearance changes the way that people react to me. Most of the time, I wear a slender, athletic body -- think of a dancer, though not a starved one like a ballerina, and you'll have the right idea. But I occasionally put on a more voluptuous body that I call my pornstar shape, with bigger tits and hips -- and men come on to me much more blatantly if I wear that shape, and doubly so if I also wear blonde hair rather than one of my usual shades of red.

I'm always fascinated by a good discussion of gender themes and issues in MMOs.

That was a great post, Shirley. You summed up a lot of the things about SL I previously could not find the proper words to describe.

Shirley's post hits a lot of nails on the head.

I'd like to hit one more more focused on the quote she included.

Why men play women more than women play men is an ingrained issue of sex.

Getting men aroused begins with sight, and it goes a very long way. Men can get really hot just looking at what arouses them

Getting women aroused begins with touch. Women get only as far as intrigued and curious with sight but not until touch does it become serious. In a way, sometimes hearing can become touch since some male voices cause perceptible vibrations in other people's bones.

Hence there is much more impetus to men adopting female avatars, and very little to female adopting male avatars. In other MMOGs a lot of the female players I've encountered who play male avatars do it simply to escape getting hit on.