Yay for discrimination in SL! \o/

As opposed to what you are doing......

uh huh ... right.

There are people who play video games till they drop dead.
There are people who refuse to let their kids speak anything but Klingon.
There are people who cut each others flesh with razors and drink each others blood.
There are people who have their ears altered surgically and wax about the 'first age'
There are people who beleive they are others property.
There are people who dress up as billy the bear and molest animals.

Thankfully they are a minute percentage of people who had mental issues long before they joined any subgroup.

What you accuse others of is exactly what you are doing yourself. Broad brush stereotyping an entire group of people to suit your purpose - while protesting anyone who would do the same to you.

Ironically in a thread started about discrimination and lack of tolerace.

The argument was lost over what people can do on their own land - even if it includes banning you. Twisting the argument to poopoo the way they choose to play Second Life (a totally different issue than the start of the thread) isn't working out so well either.

For the record I am a member of neither group - but I find your arguments about as compelling, truthfull, and distastefull, and ignorant as the RL arguments put forward by fundementalist christians telling me that homosexuals cause the aids epidemic and will 'put the gay on me' if I'm not careful.

Alright fine, whatever.

I've said many times that there are a few that keep their gorean play online and I'm more or less okay with them. That one little line I've repeated a dozen times now is what stops it from being broad brush.

Its like english, you might say Bobinoffer Eliza Homletat is a great painter, he [...] instead of Bobinoffer eliza homletat is a great painting, Bobinoffer Eliza Homletat does this and that, Bobinoffer Eliza Homletat to the tenth power.

I wouldn't do the latter, you wouldn't, so I am not about to say "Goreans who cross over to RL" ever damn time I start a post!

Also, chances are your daughter was looking at whatever she was looking at long before she was 18, thats your failure and her mothers in that you didn't block out the things that she should not have seen.

I hope I get to meet her in game ^_^

I don't "have to agree" on anything, Cilis, and in general "you have to agree" is a warning sign for me that whoever's saying it is more than likely to be one with whom I'm in disagreement, based on past experience.

In this specific case, I don't agree with your assertions that the whole Gor thing is a) nothing but a cover for brainwashing women into becoming literal slaves to controlling men, and b) somehow special, in that they have people who have difficulties with differentiating between RL and RP, while other groups (particularly furry, in the context of your posts to this thread) don't.

I doubly don't agree with your trying to make sweeping assertions based on personal anecdote into Truth(tm) by repetition.

[edit]
I triply don't agree that you have any authority whatsoever to pass judgement on how Lorelei, someone you don't know outside of SL, does things in RL, about which you are (yet again) making assumptions that you state to be Absolute Truth(tm).
[/edit]

And on a side note, please don't presume to tell me about "furry" as if I was operating in ignorance. Having been involved in a significant part of the online portion of the community for going on a decade now, I think I might know a thing or two on the subject...

You also said, IIRC, that Goreans who are acceptable to you are about as common as a vegan rattlesnake.



You're a lovely person, aren't you?

And if her encountering Furry is a failure, guess you're not saying much of your chosen group *shrug*

That was a analogy, mostly considered a joke and also used quite a bit where I'm from. To take it in literal is a bit too anal since analogies are easy to spot.

Far as furry being a failure, no, but if you didn't want her to encounter it then it is a failure on your part that she did.

I neither wanted her to encounter or it or didn't want her to.

The problem isn't Fur or Gor. The problem is people who take it to extremes. And OK, blame me for that too, why not? It's not like you'd ever say that there's something about your subculture that attracts people with certain emotional issues. Like every other subculture does.

What discredits you isn't your passion for what you participate in. It's your total unwillingness to see that everything about it might not be golden.

This is one of the most sexist comments i have had the misfortune to read since Artemis's comments!
To assume that a woman cannot be intelligent and enjoy submitting? to assume that i feel it degradeing? you arrogent ......
i am not a gorean in fact i am pretty opposed to much of what goes on in teh disney gor sims but that you assume that it is Discriminatory just because you neither understand it, or have made any effort to understand it. the assumption that us poor poor women need to be protected by a big strong man from the nasssty mean brain washing Men! Rightious ignination is a wonderful place to hide your ignorance behind, Women ..slaves..must mean teh poor dears were tricked
It may just shock you beyond belief that there are Gorean slaves who own succesful buisness both in and out of SL and keep all their own money
i'm going to stop now because i am rambling

I think blanket comments against descrimination are out of order here, because without one class being valued more than another, you wouldn't have different societies in SL at ALL. They all have their own systems. The system isn't what is to blame here.

It's the predators working the system, which happens to conceal them very well, and sometimes encourages their behavior. Regardless, it's the predators that are the problem, not the system. A soulless thing cannot be laid to blame for the actions of people.

So hunt the predators, because without that system, you'd never find them.

Actually, don't have a heart attack, but I agree.

I'm glad you see it the way I do, I have a problem with the extremes.

I'd also say that goreans and furries to attact people with issues, with gorean I'd say co-dependancy issues and body/mental image problems (I hate my thighs, I'm not smart enough to attract a lover) and I'd say a large amount of furries feel the same way... hell, MOST people don't love themselves which I think is the number 1 problem causing unhappyness in the world.

Corvus, I agree with you on predators. They ruin the internet, they ruin groups(scounts) and they ruin faith(molesters.)

*blinks*

*smiles*

yay!

I think you just touched on the reason that the problem of internet predation has been proliferating in Gorean culture as it has grown.

It naturally attracts people who have self-esteem problems. Particularly, women who have sexual angst because of their appearance or unfulfilling RL.

Which is pretty much everyone, but particularly women who are pressured to be sexy and attractive, both by themselves and society. This means a lot of prey, so you can't be surprised there's predation.

Definitely.

People need to learn to love themselves because they'll have a problem trusting anyone to love them until they do, but thats touching on relationships more than anything.

People do stupid shit because they're afraid to be alone.

That's why we've all done stupid shit, even if we think we're not afraid of being alone. Rebelling against a fear is still acknowledging the fear.

I've had several interested parties in setting up a nonprofit organization to help people out of abusive SL relationships, especially abusive or overintensified Gorean ones, both to get people out of the relationship or out of the culture altogether, depending on their need. Any interested parties should contact me at [email]CorvusTech@gmail.com[/email].

You just don't know how wrong you are about Dmi. Not only is he extremely intelligent, he happens to live with someone in RL with an IQ that is in the genius range. Me. You also don't know of his personal experiences with Gor and Goreans. It's not up to me to tell these things. It's up to him. Please, don't assume so much from one statement that you took totally out of context and misinterpreted because you do not have all the facts. Both of us know more about Gor than what you are giving credit for.

well
i am going by what he said i find it offensive that anybody tellls me that i am being dicriminated against by something just because they don't like it so no i am not wrong, he claimed as fact (Originally Posted by Dmitri Polonsky when push comes to shove the practice by it's very nature is a violation of the TOS as it is highly descriminatory against women.)
discrimintory and in my opinion it is not
and just out of curiosity i did nopt question his intelligence i called him arrogent and sexist and what does living with a genious have to do with anything ?

Don't let this degenerate further to personal attacks. I'd think the Gorean community would love to have abusers of their culture ripped out and made shameful in front of their leaders.

Edit: Database went down when I pointed out that both sides had valid points but terms like "Descrimination" are blanket terms that attack groups. Bad experiences with groups doesn't mean you kill the group if it's not the group's idea. Gor just needs its assholes weeded out (there are many), they aren't the KKK. Likewise, camping out on the semantics of Dmi's post isn't getting us anywhere either. Back to your corners, gents.

Doh! Wrong thread.

ig·no·rance
n.
The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.



I was simply pointing out that you are dealing with two highly intelligent people of which you have no knowledge of both of whom have extensive knowledge of Gor and Goreans. A fact which you were not aware of.

During the time I was directly involved in Gor I did find it to not only be discriminatory towards women, I also found it to be highly degrading. Dmi was also directly involved in Gor at one time for a longer time than I was. Your claim that he is ignorant of Gor is an assumption that is just flat out wrong.

If he were so arrogant and a sexist I sure as hell would not be with him in RL. I don't put up with that kind of bullshit.

Thank you Corvus. I agree with you. Neither of us is advocating the demise of RP Gor. We do advocate the demise of those who use Gor as a predatory cover or to abuse others.

A step in the right direction, IMO, would be classes for masters akin to the "slave classes" women are expected to take. I've mentioned it before, people say "yeah, good idea!" or "it's in the works," but I've never heard of one actually held.

And abuse, of course, requires that the person be subject to what they do not want.

To settle the descrimination issue, of COURSE Gor is descriminatory against women. It's a fundamental of the culture. All cultures use some form of class descrimination to organize themselves, and you can't angle against one group for their form versus your own so long as they aren't forcing you to live by theirs. Going into the culture, you're assigning yourself that role. The issue at hand isn't the culture itself but how easily it is being abused, and if you really look at it, we're establishing methods to police that in a constructive manner.

So anyone with descrimination issues should calm themselves, the person can un-jack from teh RP aspect at any time without further descrimination, the problem comes from people who try to force them to remain in the culture or take it out of the game, among other things.

This was tried in another 3d environment. To my knowledge, it failed as a whole simply because they could not force the masters to attend. This is not to say it could not be made successful in SL. However, I would have little hope of it succeeding, I have my doubts that it would be made mandatory for ALL masters/mistresses in all of Gor. It would have to be made not only mandatory but also uniform throughout Gor. I just don't see that happening.

I don't disagree with you Corvus. I would just like to point out that not everyone fully understands just what they are getting themselves into. They may think they do only to find out later on they didn't. Aretmis is right about one thing. Education is the key. Between education (or full disclosure if you will) and establishing a system (composed of Goreans and non-Goreans) to combat abuse, force, coercion, etc, I think there is hope for all.

Indeed, it would require willing uniformity. Obviously, the abusers themselves would subvert that. And to a degree, it would kill the culture.

I think the direction of providing the resources of "a way out" and getting positive publicity for such among the right-thinking Goreans would be the wisest way to handle this. I think we'll find that the people most offended by the use of Gor as a method of sexual predation are the Goreans themselves.

I think it shouldn't just focus on Gor, but on broader topics such as:

* what is abuse?
* how can I spot it?
* how do I leave?
* how can I reach a friend in a bad situation?

I mean, knowledge about Gor is good. But it's also good to arm yourself with knowledge that can be put to use wherever abuse occurs.

I think www.drirene.com has a lot of useful information, for example.