Forum Guidelines: Discussion with Katt Linden

Katt, thank you *so* much for attending to the Forums. This place can be even more valuable to a broader set of residents with just a little sprucing-up and promotion, and it's reassuring to know LL recognizes the asset it has here.This is probably the single most important issue, and to be frank, I have a mental Necker Cube thing going on with it: sometimes I think it's just wrong to link in-world bans to Forums offenses, and sometimes I think the existence of such a stick is a necessary deterrence.

(I'm not sure what Des and Winter are saying, though, because this is the current policy. So they've been living--unwittingly?--with this risk all along.)

At the very least, any in-world punishment must be preceded by an official, individual warning to that person that such action may occur on their next offense. That gives the alleged offender an option to self-suspend all Forums activity at that point, removing the risk of losing in-world assets and activities.

But if that's the policy, it seems unnecessary. Instead, at the point where such a warning would be issued, why not just implement a permanent Forums ban for that account? Is the intent to somehow address the (usual) problem of alt accounts? Although I'm not sure just how this achieves that objective.

Forums Volume

It's all subjective, but I sense a falling-off of Forums activity, and I'm really not sure why.

Well, in Scripting Tips, I understand it: Back in the day, the loss of native bbcode formatting resulted in a huge reduction in participation, for obvious reasons, and that decline has continued. (PLEASE give us back bbcode, ASAP. Really, it's long past embarrassing at this point.)

But I'm really not sure what's happened in Resident Answers. There just aren't as many questions as there were just a few months ago. I don't think it's because questioning residents are discouraged by so much off-topic discussion there--indeed, I think that's reversing cause and effect. I also doubt that resident confusion and questions about SecondLife have precipitously declined because everything has suddenly become dramatically more intuitive. I'd like to see more, broader involvement there, but I honestly don't know what it takes to get the volume back up.

Forums for Which Grids?

I *believe* (but could be wrong) that this Forum is reached by Main Grid residents only, and that Teen Grid has its own Forums. If that's true, I'm thinking it's probably not the right structure. If the software allows, it would seem better if certain areas of the forum be open to all (the content creation areas, in particular), and some areas reserved for TG, and others for MG. (Emphatically *not* to suggest that we need NSFW content on the MG areas or anything! Just... well, for example, TGers don't need to puzzle over suggestions of how to configure one's primbits for optimal pixel pleasure. )

Posting by NPIOF

This change scared the hell out of me, and some others. So far the sky has not fallen, despite our dire predictions. Honestly, I'm not sure this won't yet end up being a huge moderation problem, but... *whatever* happens, all residents should have permission to *read* the forums, even if posting is later restricted to PIOF only.

Sorry to post twice on the same subject, rather than just edit my post, but I want to make quite apparent this change of position.On further reflection, I'm convinced that I was wrong about this, and that the cause and effect actually go both ways. Here's what I mean:

The real resident questions get answered quickly, and that's it: they drift off the front page, never to be noticed again.

What's most visible in Resident Answers? The threads that go on and on and on about nonsense and controversy. So a resident with a question looks at RA and sees--what?--*not* a place to get their questions answered.

So they don't ask that question, and now RA looks even *less* like a place to get questions answered.

Now, I like some "nonsense and controversy"--but not at the expense of RA being perceived and used as a valuable resource for answering resident questions. As convenient as it is for *answerers* to have a single forum for both fun and serious answers, I now favor giving up that convenience for the benefit of those people with real questions to be answered. We really do need a General Discussions forum, and RA needs to have a much higher percentage of actual, honest to god, resident answer threads.

Does this mean that I am likely to be in trouble if I mention a Linden name in a case where a promise was made and not carried out, or will the post merely mysteriously disappear as has happened on the main blogs??

for instance " Jack Linden promised ------------------------ this has not been done, yet again.

Pretend you've never been to the forums before, but you're lurking some and you come threads like yesterday's "help" (/327/36/275029/1.html) and the survey thread (/327/69/275240/1.html) which did recover after the OP weathered the open criticism.

Would you feel welcome? Would it encourage you to post a question of your own? You could decide to keep on lurking for a few days and notice that threads like that occur again and again, along with frequent drama and other threads where you see a group of regulars talking among themselves. Oh and yes, there's a handful of questions that do get answered somewhere at the bottom of that heap as well.

I don't think those threads paint a friendly welcoming picture for anyone who's on the outside looking in and doesn't understand the forum dynamic and for them it's really not relevant whether all the negative posts were deserved or not. Everyone will cross the line some times and post when they shouldn't but it's just been happening more and more without moderation where people would previously hold their tongue and play nice(r).

RA's intent is a forum where anyone can come to ask questions and get help so it needs to be open and welcoming to everyone, not look hostile and unfriendly or like a tight-knit clique which is by far the most common opinion I hear from people when I mention the forums.

I'm always surprised that so many people (relatively many anyway, from the amount of participation I'd think very, very few people would know about them) I meet had at least some exposure to the forums at some point, but it's discouraging that it often seems to be a bad impression.

This...

Katt, can you give a breakdown on some of the substantive changes between current guidelines and these proposed ones?

Formatting wise, I would like to see the numbered sections on separate lines. Minor thing, though.



...and this.



Can't forget this, too.

I come for the resident questions, and trying to provide an answer. Specifically, I try to keep an eye out for threads about SL kids, as well as other topics I can provide insight into. That said, I visit more frequently because of the spirit of camaraderie that exists there. Lose that, and I know myself an many others are gonna likely spend less time in RA. Then who answers the questions?

At the same time, the signal to noise can be high at times. The way to fix this, IMO, is not to prohibit the noise, but provide a space like "General Discussion" where things like the "ignore this" thread an stuff can live. A moderator (or moderators) who can handle stuff in a firm, but liberal manner can help, too.



I think it's cute, but somewhat impractical. Would make a lot more work all around, for little gain.



Ya, I'd love to have one for child/family RP. What can I say, I dream big.

Mari

QFT

I may not be the owner of a virtual mini-nation but I sure won't risk my in-world investment on the off chance that someone doesn't like or misinterprets what I say in the forum.

Not to nickpick too much here, but you can't simply click on the name to put someone on ignore via the drop down list... you have to go to their profile to do it. You can buddy them all you want, but you can't ignore them that way.

To be honest, I don't have much else to contribute, except a request to bring back General Discussions to reduce the "static noise," levels of RA. This would free up RA for those of us who really want to help answer questions and give us a place to go to fuss and discuss that is "official" so we feel like we are contributing.

Here is what I see RA as being: A place to go to ask questions (newbie and oldbie) that has nothing to do with ethics. Example: What are the blue and red triangles that float from things? How do I remove them?

GD is about the ethics, issues, things that will cause a bit of serious discussion: Should I ban this person for x behavior? Should x behavior be allowed in SL? These type of threads do tend towards the heated and do tend toward wandering off topic. I would think putting them in one place would make it easier to moderate and make RA more welcoming to newer players.

Upgrade the Forum Software..... Now. The fact that it has been in this state is disgraceful.
resstructuring is a good idea, have a place for everything and keep everything in it's place.

Have a General Discussion space. Regardless of what some rigid minded types believe, people do like to socialize on Forums, we can't always be in world at the same time, especially when SL itself is down. Put in a true General Discussion space that can be set up so those that aren't interested can avoid it.

Set up the various tehcnical and content creation forums in a manner suggested by some others here, I really don't care, I never read them anyway, for the most part.

Forum ban =Inworld ban is ridiculous. 100% agreement with Desmond on that. That can be misused, especially if moderation is going to be to be as capricious and arbitrary as it has been. Just as someone can be Gang AR'ed inworld, I can see that pettiness applied here. I have absolutely nothing at risk in a ban, but just in principle, that rule, if held will stop me from visiting this place. *Then again, that would probably solve some people's problem right there*.

This Forum and website as a whole should be LL's Gateway to Second Life (tm).
Not only should it be a place for current residents to get information, exchange ideas and community build, but it should also be a place where potential customers can learn whether they might like to try Second Life (tm). I think allowing NPOIF's acces to the Forum is a good idea, the Chicken Littles notwithstanding. It should go a step further and non residents should be able to read selected general informational areas of the Forum. *Waits for the elitists to stop fainting*

We as tenants can definitely behave better, but the Landlord needs to show they care as well. So far they haven't. Maybe this is a sign they will, but their track record of bungling and empty promises never delivered is not encouraging.

I think an inworld ban is appropriate but only as a final measure when normal forum bans don't have any impact on the poster. The threat of it is certainly enough to curtail really bad behavior.

I also echo what Kitty and Qie have said. Who is RA for? If it is meant to help people, then it should help people. It does, but it's also littered with questions better suited for other forums and irrelevant conversations that give others the excuse to post advertising or other irrelevant conversations. See, e.g. /115/e9/273549/1.html.

You have a choice: either moderate RA with a sterner hand (not an iron fist) or bring back a general discussion forum to prevent exactly the kind of "they're doing it so why can't I" reasoning for clearly inappropriate threads.

"disemvoweled" Posts? No. If a post is inappropriate, just delete the thing.

Agree with the others that an in-world ban relating to a ban in the forums is a VERY bad idea. It will do nothing at all to stop people who intend to be trolls or to make trouble. They will be back in 5 minutes with a new, anonomous, free account. But when someone like me, or Desmond, or any other individual who actually has a lot invested in the "life" and assets of their avatar has a bad day, and makes a mis-step? That is too severe, even if it is a very infrequent occurance.

I agree that it should be OK to post a chat log where identifying information is removed. There are many cases where, by removing the names but relating the situation, a very informative and useful response can be developed to an otherwise apparently bad situation. And certainly it should be made clear that it is just fine to "name names" when one is not speaking negatively about an indiviual. Advice like "Vrrginia T makes some of the best horses I have seen in SL", or "Desmond is one of the most caring and responsible sim owners that I know, and a great landlord", should not be lumped in with personal attacks or well-intentioned "warnings" about known griefers or scammers.

I do think also that there are some situations where "naming names" is very appropriate, such as clearly identifying griefers and scammers so others can be warned to watch out for those malcontents. But I understand that this can also be touchy, due to false accusations, or misinterpreted situations. I recall, for example, a thread where someone blasted a certain content creator and product, calling it a rip-off and all kinds of bad stuff, when in fact they apparently had not read the use instructions and were using the product inappropriately.

Resident Answers should be renamed "General Discussion", or else a seperate "General Discussion" forum should be re-introduced for the chatty, community-building threads. The current state of the resident Answers thread shows that no matter what you call it, the Residents want and need a general discussion forum, and they will take over another one for that purpose if you don't give them an official one.

Bring back the "Linden Answers" forums, as a place to specificly ask questions that can ONLY be answered by a Linden staffer, and which potentially are of interest to the community as a whole. This could be a request for clarification on a blog post, or a policy question, or requesting clarification on statements made in public venues by Linden staffers. It should not be a place to post issues specific only to one individual or incident, such as "Why was I banned?" or billing problems or stuff relating to a specific AR incident.

Your last paragraph is especially good. Even if a Linden checked it once a week, so many questions have been put up in RA that only a Linden can answer, yet never a peep is heard. That also adds to the derailment, as people speculate and arguments and joking ensues.

I hope that the non-Linden member resmods will be less intrusive, making fewer editorial and censorship decisions based on subjective personal preferences, and that clearer guidelines be created for editorial actions. Closing a thread because one member resmod thinks there are too many replies, or because he does not think the thread subject relevant, are just two common examples of power gone awry. Resmods should not be a heavy handed power trip presence that dominate or own the threads.

Another problem has been inconsistent moderation and rules. Some time ago a Linden blog instructed members to name names on the forums and blogs if they have been defrauded by another member which demonstrates a lack of internal communication and inconsistency in relation to the forum.

I am with Mal - I don't see that there is much substantive difference between these proposed guildelines and what are in place today. In either case, the proposed guidelines seem fair and reasonable.

Also agree with Talarus - if a moderator feels a post needs to be disemvoweled, what really needs to happen is the post needs to be removed. Otherwise it's like trying to obscure the obscenity of a pile of dog crap by covering it with rose petals.

Overall, probably the biggest change I would like to see take place in the forums would be Lindens re-engaging with it, and with the community who use it.

As for bringing back General, I don't know about that. I think for the most part, the content in RA shows it's possible to do both Q&A and General Discussion in one forum. One way it is beneficial is that those of us who tend to camp out in RA would miss opportunities to help folks and answer questions, if those questions were moved to a different forum. So unless this is really truly broken, I say don't fix it.

Keep Resident Answers as it is, there's no need for a new general forum, Resident answers has morphed into one, just loosen the guidelines and let it run.

Cristalle's point about advertising in signatures is an important one and should be clarified.

The rules about inworld bans for forum offences aren't new, so I'm not sure why people feel the need to stop posting now, although maybe they only just realised the link and feel it's too big a risk.

There are times when a forum ban should lead to an inworld ban, for example repeatedly slurring another avatar's business methods for their own gain, but most of the time a forum ban should suffice when someone throws a bit of a tantrum. Common sense needs to be applied here.

like i said god knows only how many months ago, 'ill believe it when i see it'
if it takes this long for ll to upgrade a forum then there is truly no hope for an improved grid.

And, to me, that is exactly the problem. I came to Resident Answers exactly because it was Resident Answers. Since the morph, I have pretty much not bothered to even look at it.

I would much prefer to see a General Discussion forum and have RA return to its original purpose.

It would be easier to make a new forum for that purpose then, that would involve less changes.

There are those of us who precisely would hang out in a true RA because we enjoy helping people without the excess chatter. I asked the question, who is RA for? It's a service mainly for people with questions, not people with answers. Yes, people get help but when it devolves into pie, panties, etc. later it is harder for latecomers to parse the information. Pie, panties, etc. have a place, and it's in a social GD forum.

Okay, some nearly IV'd caffeine later, I finally found other things to contribute besides bring back the General Discussions forum.

Ad in sigs, I'm great with, as long as the post written is on topic for the thread/forum and not just to get a higher post count. I'm also okay with them being removed if they are causing problems.

A major request I have is about the off-site survey/study posts asking for participants. They really quite annoying, not to mention a high risk of viruses, spyware and other unpleasant things. I seem to recall a time when LL didn't like these unless they went through their vetting process. I may also delusional about that. Either way, we need to have some policy concerning these as well. Please? Pretty Please?

I think if you opened a General Discussion forum and kept RA only to RA, then RA would slowly die and everyone would move to General Discussion and ask their questions there.

If you are looking for help, you go where you will get it - never mind what the forum is called or what it was intended for.

You can only achieve so much with structure and organisation and protocol - it may help to get things started, but it's people who put in the effort to make things work.

... and I agree with Des (and others) about the banning bit - I'd stop joining in if I thought I could be banned for writing what I think.

EDIT - adding a forum for surveys/questionnaires or research help might be a good idea. I don't mind answering questionnaires for students, but they could have a forum of their own as there seem to be so many similar requests now.

Please enable private messages as the default.

That's a good one, with a welcome note so that people know about the existence of private messages and then get an idea how to navigate them.

I add longer ignore lists for those who self-moderate.

Qie, I'm well aware of how things currently are. In the absence of moderation I'm not in the least bit worried about getting banned. But get a rookie moderator with cookie-cutter rules in here, and we are cruising for disaster.

You can't expect warnings to be the whole answer. If someone is in the heat of the moment, they will lash out. I can't imagine that anyone on here is so milquetoast that they would never, ever, ever speak their mind bluntly. We are humans. Maybe it would take years, but sooner or later everyone is going to have that bad day. We need intelligent enforcement.

And here's the worst part: say the moderators cut a decent individual some slack after the fact. Well, guess what - by not enforcing the ridiculously harsh policies, the moderator has now completely undermined the written guidelines. We are now back to 'old boy club' favouritism. Or we can get rid of the inworld suspension stuff and have done with it.


I'm not looking for a free pass. But there's a whopping huge difference between:

a) suspending me from forums for X time, and,

b) cutting off a $L 1 million a month income, risking nearly 90,000 USD of annual revenue to the Company and placing 2.7 million square meters and several hundred residents at risk. Because I got testy in a forum and didn't cool off in time.

In fact, I'd daresay there would be significant hesitation before a large estate owner was disciplined for being out of line, as opposed to Joe Just-signed-up... and that's just not fair! The rules should apply equally.


Put people in a 'guards and inmates' environment, and you'll get the Stanford experiment. Put people in a Ritz Carlton environment, and they will act with some class.

For what it's worth, I put my money where my mouth is. I run my inworld estate without permanent bans or over-the-top threats - and it works beautifully.

* * * * *

Still very concerned about posting here if the stakes are so high. I pay my mortgage with my inworld income.

some people double post things, it's natural anymore. one of my threads has 69 views (probably 70+ by now) and it's very informative, but it's not a "suggested method" supported by any tech "experts" however, it yields great results. those are the kind of things that never get stickies, even though they work exceptionally well. at times people "bump" these threads in the interest of being helpful to the community. and I myself bump them as well, ever if I have nothing to add. in these instances, double posting is not a bad thing. nor is posting "offtopic"