Forum Guidelines: Discussion with Katt Linden

If it's held US Dollars then yes however Linden dollars are a limited licensed and aren't considered currency to them. There's very little precedence for this but until it's fought in court that's how LL considers it. There was a lawsuit though that kinda set a precedent the other way though in terms of LL entirely grabbing all account assets from someone. I think it was Bragg v. Linden Research Inc. if you want to look it up.

"I was visiting the Foo sim today, and this guy, Proboscic Phlegm, walked up to me wearing a giant nose avatar. He proceeded to sneeze on me repeatedly, causing a particle snot cloud to appear in Missy Vendor's store while we were shopping. It was not a very nice situation, and I think he should be reprimanded. Missy was also fairly upset."

Names named, but no personal attacks. Against the rules, or not?



"General Discussions" "General Conversation" "General Miscellany" "General" "General Chitchat"... the common word is "General". I think that conveys the essence of the content.

Back in the old days before they shut down all the general discussion forums, you could apply to get a group forum by contacting a Moderator.

That all ended when they decided the fate of the official forums was to fade away rather than continue to thrive.

Now that they have reversed course again, maybe that is something worth asking about. Although with SL so big now it seems highly impractical to give all the groups that may want one a group forum.

Since people are not allowed to pay their tier or their premium accounts in Linden dollars, I was referring to US dollars. For example: If I have paid for a year of a premium account, and a LL forum moderator decided on the day after I paid my bill, that they didn't like what i posted and were going to ban me, therefore denying me the service that I just pre-paid a year for. Or however long it was paid. Or if LL were to continue to bill my credit card for a month of tier during which 30 days they had banned me from being in-world. It seems that under US trade laws, they wouldn't be able to do that without facing some legal issues.

Personally, I think what we have as guidelines / moderation is working fine, we just need some broken things fixed and an new skin called DAZZLE!
Maybe a feature to find your last post in a thread might be handy and maybe even widen the forum and use the rest of that wasted "3rd of a screen" blue space on each side.

OK, so it is back to what it used to be minus the actual threads of General and Off Topic being around.

1. Ditch the in world bans/suspensions tied to forum punishment. It serves no use other then to hold a bigger hammer over people's heads. If someone can't get along in the forum with the rules.. take the steps up to and including banning from the forums when required. Taking a person's entire "Second Life" is ridiculous over forum bad acting. This is not the Second Life platform.. it is a forum.

2. I suggest re-naming Resident Answers to something along the lines of "Resident questions and conversations" or just go with General. It is not like people won't be asking questions in a general forum. They always did before and were met with answers. The only use the Resident Answers name had was to keep the place from being a general forum. Call it General and simplify the process.

You guys are thoughtful and funny too.

I'll be back to respond more substantively, but thank you. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Good point about naming names. As for chat logs with names removed, does that seem to you to open the door to something similar? Depends on the substituted "names" I suppose, and context.

I think you shouldn't dwell on defining consequences. Most people will follow this because they want to not because of fear of the consequences. My worry is if you spell these out then it just prompts people to think about the trade-off between a transgression and possible consequence. For a really pissed off person with a good pat history they might just choose to take the hit.

I think you should spell out what is acceptable / not acceptable in each area of second life. For example guidelines for in-world and guidelines for the forums. The disciplinary proceedure should be seperate and common to all. It's perfectly OK to describe how people should report issues because hopefully this is specific to each area so it is easy / efficient.

Personally I think a suspension should affect all areas.


L

Yes, that!

Also, could sculpties perhaps have their own forum in the content creation? It can be quite hard to find non-sculptie building information.

I agree. When I first found out that a ban here in the forum meant a ban to the grid i was astonished!

Is it simply because the passwords are the same and if you take down access for one area it has to be for both? if so, thats pretty dumb.

Is it because of a feeling of "If you can't behave here you aren't fit to be in SL you naughty person " in which case maybe thats ok.... or maybe its a bit too much of a Nanny-state for comfort.



Regarding separation of general banter and comment out of the Residents Answers forum and back into General.... my feeling is, if it aint broke, dont fix it.

Residents answers has been sorta self-moderating for about 6 months now, since Strife stopped moderating, and because we (thats where i mostly hang out) realise that if we let it get out of hand we might lose it. I think its working fine at the moment. Residents get answers, there is almost always a variable period of sensible posting before the thread is (mostly) wittily derailed or degenerates into hilarity, and if things get a little heated then quite often one of the regulars will give a nudge and whisper "lets be careful" or some such.

If the RA forum were to be clamped down, and a General forum reinstated (and I have heard some folks say this will be when hell freezes over) I think the forums would be the poorer, and I would probably not read either as much as I read RA now. General would be just silliness, and RA would be dry as dust.

my 2L$

Imogen

While I am sure many will split the minutae into subatomic issues, I think that you've got a fine start there, Katt. Here are the big issues, as I see them:



Who will monitor the forums, and will it be a daily thing? Not a suggestion, just a question.

* * * * *

Will the forum bans of old be kept in place?

Sure there are some bad eggs. But those are all still posting here any time they want! Anonymity renders forum bans pointless.

It's mainly the customers who were baited by personal attacks, then subsequently banned, who just plain left. Some very good people aren't articulate forum-politicians, nor do they sugar-coat it when they have been wronged.

I cringe every time I see some decent guy at wit's end, after months of torment by adfarm extortionists or whatever, cry for help here - only to be told to shut up and obey forum rules. When instead, someone should listen to him and take it to heart. A customer - and he's king. Or should be.

* * * * *

If we can be banned from the grid for what we say here I'm pretty sure I'll have to stop posting. 110% serious about this.

Low risk maybe, but incredibly high consequences - I can't put hundreds of people, their community and their land at risk because I had a bad day.

I suggest the merging of RA and General together to cut down on Moderation leg work. If the forum gets too spread out like it used to be then it will take more to moderate it.

And Katt, thank you. We have been without much Linden Communication for a long time. Seeing you run around and get these topics going is a breath of fresh air.

My suggestions -

1) Keep Resident Answers just the way it is. It's by far my favourite of all the forums, and if it gets nerfed there would be nothing left at all to interest me. Resident Answers is completely necessary because the Lindens don't come here to answer questions any more. Maybe add an off-topic forum as well, for non-SL related things, because people do like to chat about RL too, and currently there's nowhere for that to happen (except maybe in the thread-that-will-not-die).

2) Agreeing with people concerned about being banned from the grid if they get banned here as well. Is there any way to separate the logins for the forums and in-world? In any case it bothers me that I have to use the same password here as I use inworld - I tend to like to use unique ones for any website which involves financial information and SL certainly does that. So I worry about using my main in-world login for the forums, and I'd feel a lot safer if logins were seperated. Then people can choose whether to use the same password, or not.

3) Disemvowelling is the stupidest idea I've ever heard of. You know everyone will still be able to read what was said so it achieves nothing. Just remove the offending post or part of the post altogether and leave an explanation as to why.

4) Merge all the Volunteer forums into one. There's certainly no need for the Greeters one any more because that task is incorporated with Mentors. And no need for Live Helpers, because no-one of any official capacity posts in the forums any more. And I've never seen an actual moderator post in ResMod (but they should, if the forums are being moderated!)

5) Why bother with feedback forums if no-one official ever looks at them? I don't mean this Town Hall one, I mean things like the forums for feedback on the Viewers. People post but Lindens never read or respond. Either take them down completely, or actively participate, please. Don't give people the impression that they will be listened-to when they won't.

6) Link to the archives off a seperate page somewhere and take them off the front-page clutter. I would lay bets that no-one ever reads them anyway.

ETA: 7) We can haz BB Code back nao plz?

So does "all known accounts" include multiple, perhaps dozens, of alts stemming from the same user, both in forum and inworld? One would hope so.

Resident Answers is currently in a sorry state due to lack of signficant moderation for most of this year. 'Guidelines' have been replaced by general consensus between a group of forum regulars who each have their own idea of what the forum should be like and what is and isn't acceptable, often contrary to the actual guidelines.

If Resident Answers is to remain true to its intent (a Q&A forum) then general conversation has no place there. It only ends up creating inter-personal drama between regulars, drags inter-personal conflicts from in-world onto the forums or results in other undesirable practices like the current group of people which amuses itself by derailing threads rather than contributing something to the OP's question/problem.

This isn't anything new, it's been present since the start, but in the past active moderation kept things in check by limiting how far it would go and people would more easily excercise restraint to not take things to far.

The "undying thread" is one example of how conversation can have a place without intruding, but instead of providing an outlet for off-topic posts it merely bolstered a certain group to start even more off-topic threads and subvert more on-topic threads into unproductive banter and discourage further serious posts.

Please read over all the "what should RA be for?" discussion threads and note that what Resident Answers needs isn't guidelines but strict and constant moderation. We already have guidelines and hoping that people will abide by them on their own just isn't realistic.

Naming names should certainly be a no-no. Chat logs with names removed should be allowed - think of all the situatons where forum posters ask for help and need to give exact details. Also think of all the posters whose first language is not English. The current Residents Answers forum actually does do a great deal to help people and, all things considered, functions pretty well. If it aint broke - don't fix it.

Firstly, I disagree that Residents Answers is in a sorry state. Compared to many forums elsewhere or Usenet newsgroups it's an absolute model of polite decorum! Personally, I feel that on the whole it works well as it is. The banter and chat interspersed among the answers are the glue that holds it all together and makes for an interesting 'place' to come back to for information IMO. It also provides another way for people in different timezones, who wouldn't otherwise be able to meet or communicate inworld, to exchange views and make friends.

If RA had to be a dry Q and A forum without the easy-going chat and humour I doubt that many of the regulars who answer the questions posed would look in so frequently, if at all, and then everyone would lose.

Secondly, count me in as another who thinks the disemvowelling idea is a non starter. If a post is unacceptable then either delete it and state why, or send back to poster for rewriting.

Thirdly, banning someone from their inworld account for some transgression on the forum seems far too draconian. Sometimes tempers flare in online debates and arguments and things are said that are regretted later. Unless the transgression is -extremely- serious and would affect inworld events somehow then I feel a supension only ought to apply on the forum.

--
Aes

I would think that something more explicit is advisable. There will be many cases where accurate (or indeed inaccurate) statements of fact may be construed as personal attacks. One man's compliment is another mans's condemnation. One woman's jest is another's joust. The moderator decision is then (a) ulnikley to be taken in full awareness of the facts and (b) subjective. The potential for consequent mistrust, suspicion of bias and bad feeling is better avoided.

I don't necessarily disagree with in-world bans, depending on the context: if someone comes to the forums to personally attack another resident then an in-world suspension seems justified, if someone crossposts three times in a row then an in-world suspension would be a little akward to justify at least.

Penalties should ideally also be tempered with time: three warnings across a timespan of 4 years is clearly very different than three warnings across a week.

Lastly, allowing "no payment info" account to not only access but post in the forums creates a situation where the penalties - as they are written - don't apply to everyone equally. Example: someone creates a (bunch of) throw-away alt(s) and stirs up trouble (or targets a specific resident). While people should be clearheaded enough to ignore trolls or obvious attempts to flame, it's not always as easy when caught up in the moment or things can just slowly escalate over time.

A disciplinary action that targets the (throw-away) alt and the established resident (or residents) clearly has the opposite effect: the primary account of the resident responsible for the trolling/flaming isn't touched while their target is.

The content creation forums have very little off-topic conversation and they are among one of the most valuable resources or places to go to for content creation questions.

Questions will still get answered regardless of whether "pie and panties" humour is there or not and without leaving the OP with posts full of unrelated chat to sort through, or wouldn't drown out the contribution of anyone who's unfortunate enough to post something relevant to the OP's question after pages of off-topic chat.

Katt I hope you don't mind me mentioning this, but I have seen you do this once with a thread that had no controversy in it at all.

Do NOT delete/lock posts just because the original poster requests it, unless they have a valid reason for doing so, ie only close it if any of the reasons exist that would cause you to close it without request.

Sometimes the content does go off on a tangent, but there may still be a valid ongoing conversation in thread.

I second that. That's one less person helping out in the scripting tips forums. Seriously, risking my livelihood just to help LL's customers, not a good trade in my opinion.

Forum punishments for forum behaviour. Inworld punishments for inworld behaviour.

I agree with those that have said RA will not work if those who answer questions are turned away from it by curtailing their discussion and enjoyment. The discussions there also provide an excellent introduction to many SL issues for those that visit initially to ask specific questions. Some long and irrelevant conversation may be the price that has to be paid. Nobody is forced to read them. That does not mean it would not benefit from some gentle moderation. How about a flag that can be added to indicate the point at which those only seeking specific asnwers should stop reading? (It would be at the beginning of some threads).

In-world bans for forum offences are a very bad idea. The potential loss of Desmond and his generous wisdom is on its own enough reason to rule this out. His trepidation is justified in view of the sensitivity of some to take offence.

I never heard of disemvowelling before. I think it's silly and inadequate for its purpose. If something should not be there, it should be removed. (I have seen cases where a post is deleted but remains intact in quotes - can that anomaly be remedied?)

I also think this is a bad idea based on how the present Lindens policy on banning someone in world or reacting to ARs appear to be a 'shot first, asks questions later'. Although I don't know the reasons and my example may be incorrect I am specifically thinking of the owner of Privateer sim here.

I have yet to see a thread in RA get completely derailed before the initial question has been answered unless the initial question is a blatantly trollish. And even then, someone will answer it. I think RA is fine, and camaraderie and a sense of humor must prevail If RA must be toned down then we need a General Discussion forum, but I think it's fine like it is. I have never had a post where my question was not answered fully and completely, and if some hilarity ensues later it doesn't bother me.

Does this mean I can't post nudes anymore? (o.o)