Forum Guidelines: Discussion with Katt Linden

A number of you have asked about the "ban from inworld" portion of the SL Forum Guidelines.

If you read the "old" guidelines, you'll see they read:

"Please challenge opinions, state your own and enjoy the discussion, but do not cross the line into personal attacks and insults because you will risk having your Second Life account suspended or banned. We believe that in-world and forum behavior are linked and behavior carries across the boundary. This means if you are suspended or banned in-world you *are* also suspended or banned from the forums, and vice versa, if your account is suspended or banned from the SL Forums, it *will* also be suspended or banned from in-world." and also:

"Ban: A ban is the permanent deactivation of the violator’s account with the Second Life Forums *and from in-world activities*."

Please compare this with the "new" guidelines I've posted for debate, which read:

"5. In the case of a fifth offense, after a second suspension, if violations continue, the violator may be banned from the Forums. A ban is the permanent deactivation of the violator’s account with the Second Life Forums *and for the most serious or repeat offenders, could include a ban from inworld activities as well*."


I'd say this is considerably less restrictive than the previous rule. The new rules reserve the right to ban serious offenders from inworld and from the forums -- but no longer say such a ban will always happen.


Thanks!
-- Katt Linden

A number of you asked about the notion of "disemvowelled." It's a moderation policy that is fairly common in some areas of the blogosphere, for instance at Boing Boing:

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/27/boing-boings-moderat.html

"Q. All the vowels have disappeared from a paragraph I wrote! What's going on?

A. We did it. Someone (a moderator, one of the Boingers) was expressing displeasure at your remarks. The technique is called disemvowelling. It deprecates but does not delete the remark. With work, the disemvowelled text should still be readable."

No offense, but that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If the text is still readable, what's the point?

Waits to see if the boing link is taken out since were not allowed to post websites other than official SL sites.

Sorry couldn't resist that one. But thank you for making the forum ban subject a little more clear.

IMHO, that's just silly and a waste of the moderator's time. Just nuke it if it's that troublesome.

YMMV.

It's not something I would expect a company to do to its customers.

Yes, I got your point about disemvowling, I don't think I've seen any positive comments.

It's true that it does seem like it would be time consuming to do. (I believe the "point" is to moderate without actually making a post unreadable.)

I'll see if I can pull that particular bit.

the difference is that past moderators operated within 'the spirit' of the guidelines, while you prefer to follow the letter of the law. the result is that we have on-topic links edited out of posts for seemingly no other reason other than 'its the rules'. whats next, z-brush tutorial vid links?
now with the new 'letter of the law' approach i can understand why people might be far more apprehensive of this new moderation style. it seems it would be far easier to rack up 'ban points' under this system than the last system.

Sometimes, on long threads and the blog when comments were enabled there, I sorta just cruise through without reading many comments.

Katt, any chance you can get the magic Linden color on your forum posts? This will go far in enabling my lazyness..


I always thought Strife did a good job.

This makes me curious. Katt, couple you let us know exactly how much "say" you have on these policies? Are your hands tied on these? If so, then is this discussion for moot?

It seems to me that some of the biggest issues coming up involves the strength of the moderation. I agree with a lot of the statements about this. We are not "the enemy," which is how a lot of this feels. We're here because we *enjoy* the product of Linden Lab. We want to play a part in this world, and feel some purchase into it (some financially, some emotionally, some otherwise).

Yet things such as the blanket ban on posting non SL URLs *even when they are relevant* (which you yourself violated above) and the continuing issue with the forum ban = inworld ban is indeed creating a great deal of animosity that does not need to be. Really, it all seems solvable.

But if your hands are truly tied on these policies, then it would seem an irrelevance to even hold this discussion, no? Who should one petition to for such policy changes?



I liked Strife a lot, and always felt I was treated fairly by the ol' cabbit. You'll not find me speaking ill of Strife in the old archives.

Mari

An answer has come in regarding the question of chat logs posted "anywhere" meaning a person might not be welcome in the SL forums anymore (which would potentially mean a person might not be welcome in SL anymore, either).

The administrator of a third party site wrote Robin Linden about this and said he got this response:

"She said there has been no change in Linden Lab's policy - third party sites are outside their jurisdiction and they do not discipline for posting chat logs there.

"She did say if the policy does change, they will announce it."

coco

so somebody had to go to robin for an answer, even though katt is the 'communications manager'.
makes sense...

http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/21/greetings-from-katt-linden/

Correct forum moderation of a Virtual World, is not and should not be re-inventing the wheel.

I think some LL people need to do some serious study of the MOST successful MMO on the planet and how things are handled there.

There, the moderators are loved, feared while being humorous and friendly and helpful and most of all repected. All the silliness and even harmless nastiness 10 million wackoes, can muster up is allowed or quietly moved to off-topic or other forums, or just tolerated. Posts or threads with rascism, foul language, personal information, keyloggers, spam, or other things that are not tolerated, are deleted and perpetrators warned suspended or banned on a case by case basis daily and nightly. Criticism of the company IS tolerated.

The old adage, "Copy Success" applies here.
I would recommend people attempting to moderate a Virtual World forum would take some serious time to carefully study how things are done successfully instead of trying to figure it out from scratch, like a bunch of noobszz.

In terms of mod actions vs the severity of the offense, I'd really rather see posts just get locked before they get edited. Preferably, unless it's really bad, with a warning post first.

Editing a post but letting the conversation continue just begs for comments on why the post was edited and frequently derails the conversation.

If there are forums/threads that are going to be more strictly moderated, please just say so. A simple "we want to keep this thread open - no screwing around or I'll edit your post, track you down in-world and beat you senseless" would be fine. Seeing "edited" throughout a post just really creeps me out - it's like papers declassified by the government with big blacked out sections. I really don't think this is what you're trying to project but I do think that that's how it looks to a lot of people.

Also, trying for constructive critisism here, please don't look for things to moderate - there are plenty that will beg for your attention. Unless it's really out of line, just let it be.

/me sends Katt a cookie. I don't agree with some things you do but do think you're trying and I do appreciate it.

Thanks for all your thoughtful comments. I've made some changes in response, for instance removing Disemvowling, and suggesting a different wording for the issue of chat logs, what do you think, would stating it this way be better?

-- Katt



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Second Life Draft Forum Guidelines
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Respect others. Try to be helpful. You are advised to bring your sense of humor

Community Building, Supported by the Forums
Linden Lab offers the Second Life Forums to promote conversation and shared ideas, and to help develop a strong, well-informed community. Second Life Residents are invited to use the Second Life Forums for constructive discussion about Second Life and the Second Life Community, education about Second Life, and for the honest and open exchange of ideas.

Share useful information. Participate! Have fun! Learn and teach!
• Be constructive. Respect each other and the rules, and you will be a welcome participant.
• Look for threads on topics that interest you, including Linden Discussion Threads, events, public issues, the Second Life viewers, the Preview grid and new features.
• Enjoy the forums for discussion of topics related to Second Life and the Second Life Community.

Explore the Second Life Resident Forums
• Visit the Resident Conversation forums to discuss inworld education with SL Instructors and Educators, to arrange Real Life Meetups & Events, talk about what learning methods work best in SL, and much more.
• Interested in Content Creation? Participate in the discussions about building, texturing, event management, animation, movies and machinima, scripting, clothing creation and SL games.
• Post in the Classifieds sections of the Forums when you have a new product, or service, or you have an updated store, land to sell or rent, or to post special attractions or help wanted in SL ads.
• Discuss technical issues, including topics about the Mac and Linux clients.
• Use the International forum threads to talk about Second Life in German, Spanish, Italian, Japanese or Korean.
• For private discussions, please use private messaging, IM or voice in SL. Please keep the forums for public conversation.

Basic Forum Rules
1. Post it once. A single post copied into multiple threads is considered spam.
2. Comments should be on-topic and constructive.
3. Please, keep it "safe for work". Links, including to images or video, must not be to "NSFW" material or images that show the "naughty bits."
4. Ads for your Second Life goods, land or services may be posted in the appropriate classifieds section.
5. No RL advertisements, ads may only be for Second Life related goods, land or services.
6. No spam. No trolls, no flaming, no personal attacks, including accusations against named individuals or groups. Refrain from making posts that are intended to upset or hurt, and don't encourage others to do so, either. Live up to the CS (Second Life Community Standards) [http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php] and the TOS (Terms of Service) [http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php],. Forum suspensions and bans could affect your entire account; in the very worst cases could possibly even risk bans on inworld access. If you have a problem with someone else’s post, either flag their post with an Abuse Report, or ignore them. [*Read The Fine Print, ¬below.]

*The Fine Print. Read Carefully
Maintain your good reputation in the forums.
7. "Safe for Work" [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSFW], means the goal is to keep the SL Forums safe for someone to read on a break at work. For instance, cover "naughty bits" in images and video. Don't use, or link to, content not suitable for a PG rating, including pornographic, nude or adult content. For instances such as avatar skins, this includes any web page or image directly linked to.
8. Posting Chat logs without permission is an inappropriate violation of community trust, and you may not do so in the SL Forums. Doing so outside Second Life or Linden Lab venues, in locations where Second Life Forum moderators are not in authority, may therefore result in the SL Forum community not wishing to speak with you, and in the worst cases may result in you becoming unwelcome in these forums. Please put the community first. Note, misuse of Abuse Reports is a serious offense.
9. Your posts may not violate or link to content that violates the CS (Second Life Community Standards) [http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php] or TOS (Terms of Service) [http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php], including gambling or casino-related content. This also includes illegal content, and content that is misleading, defamatory, infringing, libelous, obscene or otherwise objectionable, at Linden Lab's sole opinion. Posting such content or links is grounds for suspension or removal from the forums and from Second Life, and posts with such content may be locked and removed.

Help keep the forums constructive and useful
• If you see a post that you think violates the Community Standards, is posted in the wrong forum, or in some way requires review, please help out by reporting it by clicking on the /!\ icon to the left of the post. We’ll take a look at it and will take any action necessary.
• To ignore all forum posts by one person, click on their name, and select "add to ignore list" at the bottom of the menu.
• We recommend that you understand and follow general "Netiquette." A good primer is at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette].


Penalties
A. First offense. Linden Lab may give an informal, one-time warning via private communication with the offender explaining the offense and what (s)he can do to correct it.
B. Second offense or severe first offense. If an offense is severe or an informal warning has already been issued, Linden Lab may issue a formal warning. Warnings become a permanent part of the Resident’s record. Repeat offenders may be subject to suspension.
C. If a third offense is committed, the penalty is a three-day suspension, both in-world and from the forums.
D. A fourth offense may earn a thirty-day suspension, both in-world and from the forums.
E. In the case of a fifth offense, after a second suspension, if violations continue, the violator may be banned from the Forums. A ban is the permanent deactivation of the violator’s account with the Second Life Forums and for the most serious or repeat offenders, may include a ban from inworld activities as well.
F. While Residents may have more than one account, at a time when one such account has been suspended from the SL Forums, logging in to the Forums using an alternate account and committing an offense will result in suspension of all known accounts from the Second Life Forums for thirty days, in addition to any other penalty earned.
G. Violations are evaluated on a case-by-case basis depending on the severity of the offense and past history of violations. Every effort will be made to take into consideration the feeling of the forum community. However, Linden Lab will make the final decision.

On Forum Moderation
H. After moderator warning in a thread, if offenses continue or an overall thread is destructive rather than constructive, threads may be reviewed, closed and locked.
I. Generally moderators will not delete whole threads, other than for serious violations, but offensive posts may be removed.
J. In order to make our decisions as transparent to Residents as possible, any editing or locking of threads will be explained with a post or note from the moderator.
K. If a moderator removes or edits your post, please do not repost it elsewhere, including a "Why did my post get removed" post.
L. Appeals. If Linden Lab takes disciplinary action against you that you believe was unfair or inconsistent, you may appeal the decision by sending an email to [an email address to be announced.] In the e-mail explain your situation and why you believe you should not have been disciplined. You must follow this appeals procedure, or your appeal will not be considered. You may submit only one appeal per disciplinary action.

This is true

As soon as the ESL Ebay Outsourced Mods get here - I'm gone.

I would definitely get rid of the part about, "may therefore result in the SL Forum community not wishing to speak with you."

And again, I really don't think you should try to react to things people post someplace else on the Internet, or punish people here for what they post elsewhere.

The TOS should be for SL. Not one you expect to apply everywhere else, too.

coco

I'd like to see all the Penalties subsections reworded a little to use the word 'may' instead of 'will' - not all of them do now. I know it's picking nits but, IMO, it's better to use words that give you a little more discretionary flexibility...

Good points, Sindy, Cocoanut.

Colette, I hope you'll find that the moderators are ok, but if you think otherwise, tell me so.

Not only will they be under our supervision, a big group of Lindens will be training them how to moderate Linden style.

Yeah, I expect it won't be perfect, but we'll work it out, making changes as needed, as we get feedback on how the moderation is going. For me, it'll be awfully nice to have moderators who speak German, because I don't! Same with Japanese and Korean. And their French is better than mine.

They'll be here to support the community, so the Forums can grow better and more useful.

same here, so we better post lots now. I consider mods to be a bit like CS and farming out CS is always a disaster. so with the change I will close anhother part of my SL. But I am considered a pioneer and LL made it clear that we arent wanted anymore.

uh, yea

unless you spell it out were all sitting here wondering what a personal attack constitutes, and may be subject to bad moods or whatnot

hmm even this could be considered a personal attack. i fell that the line i quoted is an attack on the op's intelligence and travis looked at me funny omg where are the lines?

1500 posts or so to go and I beat Torley and win.

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Yeah its discouraging they had to say stuff that makes people feel that way.

Beyond locking threads, And suspending people who all they seem to do is insult others ..

They never really enforced any of the personal attack provisions before.

Will be weird if they started now.

Ditto

point is depending on mood, situation, and interpretation any other statement / opinion / action could be taken as a personal attack

and if i am subject to these rules id like to know where the boundary are