Forum Guidelines: Discussion with Katt Linden

I'd like a "stream on consciousness" forum with just one page. When a thread falls off the page it's gone forever.

The problem with the forum ban being tied to one's SL account is that it's an extreme measure, and therefore less likely to be used except in extreme cases.

Do you really think an in-world ban will affect someone who just makes a troll alt for the lulz, as opposed to trashing a long-term resident's account because they occasionally get a bit hot under the collar in the forums?

Is this in reference to literally "anywhere" -- for example third-party forums and blogs?

True, but think of this way.. most of the long-term residents already realize that this can happen. Usually A warning is enough for them to chill out or take it to another forum.

But as I said, I would rather see it gone, but if it has to stay, let it there be a clearly defined due process and working appeal system. By clearly defined due process, I want to see the steps it takes to become banned, like X number of warnings and forum bannings in X amount of time equals banning.

Frankly, if I had my way, permanent banning from the forums should come before banning from SL, so the only ones that would be banned from SL would be those who were abusing the system via an alt.

For the record, I've seen perfect psychos on the forums (not just SL forums, but any forum) behave really sweetly in RL or SL. Strange that.

I agree.

I think I could agree that chat logs shouldn't be published if one of the chatters is not the person publishing, and the names are given. In other words conversations overheard, and conversations with names, shouldn't be published.

People should look upon chat logs as works of fiction, anyway.

And what constitutes a chat log? If I made up an entirely fictional conversation between two fictional people, is that a chat log? How could it be? And in that case, given that any conversation could be and probably was edited, how can any bit of this made-up prose be considered a true log of a conversation? Is it because it purportedly took place in sim X? Or is it the format, somehow that defines it?

Sorry, just thinking, here.

Well firstly, the rule about chatlogs needs to be fixed.

You can find a thread (or several) in the old Linden answers about the subject where Torley and others said that it only applies to the SL service itself on the basis that they aren't going to try validating whether a name outside LL servers is legitimate and not someone else.

Further if you think you're going to begin policing what people do outside of SL then, well, no.

You also need to express the actual policy to other Lindens because it's not uncommon to hear newbies claiming that you can be banned for posting chatlogs on your personal blog, only to make a sheepish mea culpa when shown the aforementioned threads saying you can't.


Now as to chatlogs and naming names at large, this would be something I would understand if LL ever did anything about enforcement in general. As it is, residents who are ripped off have little recourse from LL and don't even get the benefit of sharing their cautionary tale to prevent the same experience for others. Phillip made a quote to Reuters last year I believe regarding SL banks and Ponzi schemes and said that he felt a resident's reputation is what will keep bad behavior in check. How can that be the case when this policy actively protects behavior that should be banned? Oh, yes, people can run to third party forums and complain freely, as most do, but not everyone will, and most only find those things out way too late.

Envowelling? Are you joking about that?

I also think the policy of in-world punishment off of forum behavior is ridiculous except in the most egregious cases. I don't have to worry about getting my power cut off because I got into a screaming match with the electric company's CSR.

And on another point, while I'm sure it's not really nice sometimes to hear negative things about the company you work for, really, that's such a ridiculous comment to hear it just blew my mind. It's still a paying service I'm utilizing, I'm largely happy to give everyone at LL a hug when I meet them, but I'm not going to shy away from complaining because it makes someone feel bad either. If you are getting a higher volume of complaints than hugs, I think that's a metric that you need to do some more "communicating" over.

Katt,

With all due respect, I'm one of the people who aren't really around any more due to the ricockulous Linden Lab forum policies. I use to contribute a lot (see post count, live help record). I'm also a founder of the SLCC. I use to be a passionate debater in the old General forum, as well as willing to help anyone new Resident out with a new question. I enjoyed the company I kept here, the wit, the passion, the intelligence.

You've gone Disney on us. LL used to have a lot more balls. That really saddens me.

If you really want to revamp these forums and make them useful for feedback, helping new Residents, and all the other lip service I've heard so far, the policies have to change, drastically. You're telling the people most passionate about SL that they'd be "better off on third party forums?" I'm sorry, but are you KIDDING me?

I've been one of LL and SL's biggest supporters through my five years here, I think it is fair to say. When the forums got closed down because they didn't fit into LL's Haight/Ashbury hippie credo 100% of the time, I told Philip I disagreed (in person, in your offices). I think you're now seeing that you're best gauge of the true pulse of SL was lost when you de-nutted these forums - since then, the best place to get a true sense of the pulse of SL has been Second Citizen, and now SLUniverse. You know, places where people can express their opinions without worrying about screwing their SL account, and in many cases, their RL livelihood.

I think you could use a lesson from Jeska. She managed these forums with a fair and even hand. I consider her a friend, as a co-founder of SLCC especially, and she suspended me from these forums. I respect her more than anything - I got too passionate at took it to personal attacks (I called an idiot a moron instead of an idiot, heh), and took my medicine. She was right.

From your posts in this thread, things seem arbitrary. All people are asking for is a few things, from what I can tell.

(1) Consistent moderation.
(2) Ability to show our passion for the SL platform.
(3) Not having to worry that our honest opinions here will reflect our in-world experience.
(4) Being able to discuss the good, bad, and the ugly, without worrying about offending the LL P.R. machine.
(5) I've got to say it: FUCK CENSORSHIP; we're supposed to be on the frontier here, even if we are the marginalized and dispossed.

All that said, I don't envy your position. I know it is difficult. But please, for the love of hippos everywhere, listen to the concerns raised since you necroposted this thread.

Linden Lab shouldn't fear negativity or constructive criticism. You know what you should fear?

APATHY.

I may be far past innocence, but I hope I never approach apathy when it comes to SL. SL is as much a home to me as ANYWHERE in real life.

We already have Disney World. We don't need another, especially in a world where you can be anything: "YOUR WORLD. YOUR IMAGINATION." I'm a bit of a twisted bitch, but a sweetheart underneath.

Please, let me keep my world and my imagination.

Warm regards,

-Flip

The way I read that is that it's a bit of an empty threat. Posting them anywhere is frowned upon, but they can't really stop you doing that but you may be seen as the pantomime villain if you show your face on the forums ever again. It doesn't say you'll be punished for it, unless you post chat logs on the official forums or inworld.

I just wanted official clarification, it was my understanding that the limitation of Linden power over third-party venues was the arbitration of the use of the letters "S" and "L".

BTW: clarification, and sorry if it created any confusion: it was a resident who said the "third party forum" quote, not Katt Linden.

Apologies again for any confusion created, but I also know that has been what LL has wanted; I've been told so by Lindens, heh.

Regards,

-Flip

Yo Flipper,

I know who you are, and I'm happy to see your post, and your passion for this subject.

Same goes for all of you posting here, I'm glad to see how much you care.

Honestly, I agree with you that things can be better here, and I'm here to help make that happen, *not* to push folks out the door.

Flipper, my good man, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I am hesitant to post on these forums, despite having been regular participant for awhile.

I have too much stuff in my inventory to risk getting banned in world for calling someone an asshole here.*

*note to Katt: that was strictly for illustrating my point. In no way did I mean to imply that anyone on this forum is or ever has been an asshole.

All of this seems to be leading toward some fairly logical conclusions, possibly.

1) Resident answers forum for, well, resident answering. Much as it is now. No iron hand needed, but anyone being abusive or driving off residents can be removed from this area - as it's a primary new customer-facing area. Ideally it will be too boring for trolls.

2) PG General discussion forum. Goofy threads from the resident answers forum can be put over there if there's too much noise. No snide remarks, no cussin' or you'll be removed from the area. A comfort zone for more conservative people. Most importantly, a forum you wouldn't be ashamed to show a business client.

3) Mature General discussion forum. Like 2) but more pub-like. Note that the latter is not an XXX forum or a clique forum or an abusive forum - but you can discuss more than butterflies and rainbows and PC-corporatespeak there. Cross the line and get personal, and you are gone for 2 - 10 weeks as the moderator sees fit. That's the only rule you really need.


It doesn't have to be like this - there are other ways to do it of course.

Consider the reaction to 3) above. I'll bet there would be a huge cheer, with old and new supporters coming out of the woodwork. It doesn't have to be a nasty forum or a crude forum, just a place where people can let their hair down a bit.

Consider the reaction to our inworld lives not being threatened by forum commentary. That too would be hugely positive.

And seriously, dump the 'forever' bans, if they still exist. It's all ancient history. I'll tell you a secret. There will be a few loud groans when certain individuals come back - but bottom line, the people groaning will be reading, engaged, and passionate about the issues. Right now it's pretty dead, and Flip is quite right about apathy being the enemy.

Put it this way - I'm not pals (to say the least) with Prok or Cristiano, but I can post at either of their sites without fear of a ban. Both of them could come to my estate without any fear of banning from me. That's how adults should behave. I think the official forums should have at least that much politesse.

* * * * *

Alright. I've spoken my peace, and covered a few things twice, so I'm going to be quiet now.

Someone mentioned separating the in-world and forum accounts to the point of having separate passwords. Please don't do that. Having the same password here is the way we know that the Katt Linden here is the same person as the Katt Linden in-world. There must be a large number of people in-world that have never logged into the forums. It would be way too easy to destroy those people if the 2 were separated.

In spite of all that, I fully agree that forum bans should not result in in-world bans. Especially considering that the policy describes banning for total number of lifetime offenses instead of severity of offenses.

If another forum is going to be added for discussions, please call it Resident Discussion instead of General Discussion. It's a subtle difference, but I believe it would keep the topics more focussed on SL issues instead of RL ones.

Linden Labs punishing anyone in any manner for what they do outside of Second Life or the Second Life forums, whether its on a third party site, or in real-life - Should almost never happen.

There should only be 3 exceptions.

1. Something that goes on outside of Second Life / SL forums which leads to an actual case of inside Second Life fraud/crime by way of investigation with evidence.

2. Something that is Legally actionable - which should be handled by LL's legal representatives.

3. Punishing Linden Lab Employees.


Banning someone from Second Life for something they say or post on a *third-party* site is beyond crazy.

An inworld ban needs to pass the common sense test. I agree with the 3 situations posted, but as has been stated elsewhere, using the forum to destroy another's business should be punished. How many "my landlord ripped me off" posts have we seen? Most of them are somewhat true, but what about when someone goes on a tear because they didn't understand what was going on? There are always two sides to the story, and we often don't see the other side. If this was done systematically, then yes, an inworld ban would be appropriate. But it shouldn't be the first resort - it needs to be carefully investigated and administered by a visible, well known Linden.

Well I can see banning such a person from posting on the official SL forums and deleting their entire thread.

I still couldn't see banning them from Second Life for it. Because I don't agree with linking the two.

-----------------

But if it were done on a *third party* site? I don't think the Lindens should do anything. At that point it would be between the wronged party and the site's moderator. Or if actionable - between lawyers.

Basically the same recourse RL businesses have against people who post bad things about them.

I supposed if we're going to repeat the mistakes of the past for no good reason at all, I guess we should notify the former participants in the "atheism versus theism" debate so they can start doing their gig again. Also, we should find U and K and have them do battle again.

Yes, I can see it called Resident Discussions, otherwise, instead of it being a discussion of things like how RL affects SL and visa versa, we'd wind up having discussions about things like how cute some actor/ress's butt is. A discussion of who's hot and who's not can definitely go to a third party.

Also, anything that is an obvious discussion between two residents should really be done through PMs or in world.. not via a thread. One would think that common sense, but common sense seems to be a very rare commodity.

To summarize, what's being asked for are a support forum, (content creation plus resident answers), and, a "pleasant chat" forum for people cheating their employers while bored at work, and, a hateful vulgar forum for people with drug abuse problems to say f*ck and *ssh*le a lot, engage in nationalist bigotry (since nationalist bigotry is not specifically mentioned in the Community Standards), talk about dolcett (with pictures), and such, which the pleasant chat participants will read but not participate in .

Ooh, just think of it, endless Bush versus Obama threads, that'll be sure to advance the development of the 3D internet. And they won't take a bit of work to write, just paste some old Bush-Gore threads into a word processor and run the find and replace and bit.

Thank you for your reply, it means a lot. It really doesn't matter who I am, however. I wish my name on the last post had been Generic123 Schmuck456 rather than my actual name; it is the spirit of SL that matters.

What matters is that we can have an open and honest exchange.

I'm glad you're engaging residents again. And I'll re-iterate, that I don't envy your position - nor should anyone. Trust me, talk to Jeska, she was the only person I've seen who ever could manage the amount of passion in these forums fairly. I didn't mean that as a slight to you - I meant it as a compliment to Jeska.

If you read the history of these forums, you'll see we used to have a rich history that was very valuable to Linden Lab: a combination or fun, honest opinion, rich debate, and utter and complete chaos. I realize that combination might not be best option for a company that may be looking to be publicly traded, but Linden Lab has always broken the rules.

Don't let the recent past get you down. PASSION. As I said before, PASSION. You wouldn't work for LL if you didn't have it. I know everyone I've met who works for LL has it. Bring it back here.

You need it.

We need it.

Sometimes, the most passion you can show for Second Life is how much time you spend on Second Life outside the world itself; not how much time you spend within.

Regards,

-Flip

Dammit. As usual, here's my disclaimer.

"What Desmond said."

That guy is good with words.

Listen to the man.

BTW - how about a golf clap round of applause for Katt? She's been thrown into the fire and deserves credit for not just raising the topic, but dealing with a few years of pent-up frustration.

My hat is off to you, Katt.

Well, personally Ive seen enough. When I can't even get a simple clarification to a simple question, I've had enough. Sadly This was one of the few forums I cared to deal in, Places like SLU are too entrenched in old politics and unclear alliances to safely navigate.

The SL forums were a friendly place where everyone knew the rules and for the most part followed them. I don't see the need to change anything. IF posting chat logs from Office hours makes me some horrible person, then I will leave, I wouldn't be able to continue helping under such circumstances. If some random Forum AR from some ass who doesn't like what I have to say could initiate my removal from in-world, Then I'll simply have nothing to say here. It's pretty clear from seeing who Katt selectively replies to what she is all about. The worst type of favoritism, which already permeates SL at every level.

Linden Lab, you really need to grow up. There are a lot of people who deserve your support, not just the people kissing your ass.

Now, feel free to Disenvowell my post or whatever, I'm sure you'll enjoy that. I won't be back.

If someone comes on the forums to badmouth their ex they just had a bad break-up with and posts some explicit pictures along with their RL details you would just want that person forum banned to come back with an alt ad nauseum until they grow tired of it?

More to the point: the policy has been in place for years now, has anyone ever been banned (not suspended, but an actual permanent ban) in-world due to what was said on the forums where there was absolutely no way to justify it? I realize it might require some careful stepping around the exact details if it's the case.