Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

Volunteer to End Your Premium Acct. Stipends

neb Svarog
congenitally bewildered
Join date: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 12
05-27-2006 23:13
I don't have hard facts and figures, but it is pretty obvious that the larger successful business owners are panicking, and dumping their Lindens on Lindex.

1) The simple solution? all business owners rental agents, land traders, content providers cut their prices by 50% This would reduce excessive profits, so less Lindens heading out to Lindex, stimulate demand, more people trying to buy Lindens, and thus strengthen the economy, driving up the value of the Linden.

2) Linden Labs have stated that when conditions are right, they will start selling Lindens. Conditions are right now, for them to start buying Lindens, Pulling surplus currency out of circulation to stabilize the value. OK, it would cost a few thousand US, (9,227.63 at the time of writing to bring the exchange rate back to 300) but surely a worthwhile investment to preserve confidence.

3) The noble people offering to forgo their stipends. You know that only a tiny percentage of the population will join you, but if you need to make a gesture, just pay Philip Linden 500 (or 50) per week. I'm sure he can delete them without letting them back into circulation.

So, what are the chances of option 1 happening? - effectively zero, too many people making real $s, and they are not playing a game, but earning rl money. Option 2? I'm sure it has been considered, but the fact that nothing has happened yet means it probably wont. Option 3) there are some people that might do it, but no where near enough to make a difference.

There is another possibility of course, increase the tier charges. I'm sure this has also been considered, but I think it would cause many people to quit the game, or downsize their land holdings thus depressing land prices, which would cause a whole new set of problems.

There is only one sure solution. dump the Linden and run the economy on US$. Nothing (apart from notionally free goodies) costs 1 Linden dollar. Trebling the price to 1 cent is not going to deter even the poorest of newbies. 1 cent can equal 1 NewLinden if we wish to preserve the illusion. Linden Labs can still take a percentage commission for transferring money into and out of SL.
It will cause work for the people engaged in commerce, Linden Labs may view it as a failure, but the SL currency will be stabilized, and confidence restored. If a whole bunch of European countries can drop their own currency and convert to the Euro, I'm sure we can manage it.

Stipend will have to decrease, that has always been obvious, or account charges will have to increase. Paying premium account holders L$26,000 per year for an annual account that costs US$72 is not sustainable, do the math. We are getting 361 L$ for every US$. Buy a premium account, buy, then sell at a profit, your first land, then at the end of the year, cash in your Lindens. At L$300 to US$1, you will see a 20% return on your investment - excluding the land sale profit. Wanna bet there are not a few alts whose sole purpose this is? maybe not to make rl money, more likely to provide a cheaper source of L$.

That's it, comments welcome :-)

Neb
KatanaBlade Anubis
House of Blade
Join date: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 369
05-28-2006 00:50
From: neb Svarog
I don't have hard facts and figures, but it is pretty obvious that the larger successful business owners are panicking, and dumping their Lindens on Lindex.

1) The simple solution? all business owners rental agents, land traders, content providers cut their prices by 50% This would reduce excessive profits, so less Lindens heading out to Lindex, stimulate demand, more people trying to buy Lindens, and thus strengthen the economy, driving up the value of the Linden.

2) Linden Labs have stated that when conditions are right, they will start selling Lindens. Conditions are right now, for them to start buying Lindens, Pulling surplus currency out of circulation to stabilize the value. OK, it would cost a few thousand US, (9,227.63 at the time of writing to bring the exchange rate back to 300) but surely a worthwhile investment to preserve confidence.

3) The noble people offering to forgo their stipends. You know that only a tiny percentage of the population will join you, but if you need to make a gesture, just pay Philip Linden 500 (or 50) per week. I'm sure he can delete them without letting them back into circulation.

So, what are the chances of option 1 happening? - effectively zero, too many people making real $s, and they are not playing a game, but earning rl money. Option 2? I'm sure it has been considered, but the fact that nothing has happened yet means it probably wont. Option 3) there are some people that might do it, but no where near enough to make a difference.

There is another possibility of course, increase the tier charges. I'm sure this has also been considered, but I think it would cause many people to quit the game, or downsize their land holdings thus depressing land prices, which would cause a whole new set of problems.

There is only one sure solution. dump the Linden and run the economy on US$. Nothing (apart from notionally free goodies) costs 1 Linden dollar. Trebling the price to 1 cent is not going to deter even the poorest of newbies. 1 cent can equal 1 NewLinden if we wish to preserve the illusion. Linden Labs can still take a percentage commission for transferring money into and out of SL.
It will cause work for the people engaged in commerce, Linden Labs may view it as a failure, but the SL currency will be stabilized, and confidence restored. If a whole bunch of European countries can drop their own currency and convert to the Euro, I'm sure we can manage it.

Stipend will have to decrease, that has always been obvious, or account charges will have to increase. Paying premium account holders L$26,000 per year for an annual account that costs US$72 is not sustainable, do the math. We are getting 361 L$ for every US$. Buy a premium account, buy, then sell at a profit, your first land, then at the end of the year, cash in your Lindens. At L$300 to US$1, you will see a 20% return on your investment - excluding the land sale profit. Wanna bet there are not a few alts whose sole purpose this is? maybe not to make rl money, more likely to provide a cheaper source of L$.

That's it, comments welcome :-)

Neb


lmao I got dizzy off that! so you are saying..... make less profit but work as hard and pay the same overheads with less incentives and less pay....tell that to the land and shop owners of all the nice places you shop at and go dancing at. Not trying to start anything here your opinion is always most welcomed. but let me say for a small example, to buy a sim used to be $995 US dollar nwr is $1250 us dollars to buy. Economy was better last year allowing the sim buyers to be able to afford fair price increase for better servers. but now the economy now less profitable and you think cutting prices 50% might be a solution when technically same price of something last year is ALREADY less then this year becuase u get more lindens for your dollar........ step away from the catnip....
_____________________
Main Shop & Owned Mall:

(Click Banner for LM)


Are you a custom builder or clothing designer?
Vote on Prop: 735 and Prop: 1773
  1. Samurai Regional Estates
  2. Crying Rose Studio Design
Musuko Massiel
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 435
05-28-2006 01:15
"1) The simple solution? all business owners rental agents, land traders, content providers cut their prices by 50% This would reduce excessive profits, so less Lindens heading out to Lindex, stimulate demand, more people trying to buy Lindens, and thus strengthen the economy, driving up the value of the Linden."

Utter rubbish. If all sellers halved their costs, then buyers would only need to buy half as many Lindens on Lindex, and we'll be back where we started; half as much sold, but half as much bought = no change.

Well, there'd be one change: the content providers will get shafted.

Musuko.
Mad Wombat
Six Stringz Owner
Join date: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
05-28-2006 03:40
From: Bloop Cork
That's not a bad idea. What would you suggest we call our group?


From: Mad Wombat
Yeah and everytime we pay the flames 500L, a smoke cloud in form of a skull will appear, accompanied by the sound of a dying squirrel.


How about "Dying Squirrel"? :D
_____________________
Raivann Brissot
Registered User
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 14
05-28-2006 03:55
I totally agree that all stipends should be ended.

I'll happily volunteer to give up my 500L$ stipend, but until enough people agree to make it worth the effort, or Linden Labs enforce it, I'll stick it into Money Trees to help the newbies who are coming up without stipends to get a start in a new Second Life with, hopefully, a stable economy.
KatanaBlade Anubis
House of Blade
Join date: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 369
05-28-2006 03:59
From: Raivann Brissot
I totally agree that all stipends should be ended.

I'll happily volunteer to give up my 500L$ stipend, but until enough people agree to make it worth the effort, or Linden Labs enforce it, I'll stick it into Money Trees to help the newbies who are coming up without stipends to get a start in a new Second Life with, hopefully, a stable economy.


Getting rid of Stipend jsut isnt the magic solution. economy was fine until a few months after GOM shut down. SL has been around alot longer then Lindex.
_____________________
Main Shop & Owned Mall:

(Click Banner for LM)


Are you a custom builder or clothing designer?
Vote on Prop: 735 and Prop: 1773
  1. Samurai Regional Estates
  2. Crying Rose Studio Design
aEoLuS Waves
Koffie?
Join date: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 279
05-28-2006 04:04
From: Raivann Brissot
until enough people agree to make it worth the effort, or Linden Labs enforce it, I'll stick it into Money Trees to help the newbies who are coming up without stipends to get a start in a new Second Life with, hopefully, a stable economy.
Now thats a good suggestion. Much better then just give it back to LL.
_____________________
http://drainwaves.com
Siobhan Taylor
Nemesis
Join date: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 5,476
05-28-2006 04:23
Well, I do approve and support this idea of opting out of stipends. As a premium member, I did "opt out" myself for a long time by feeding my L$500 a week into my money tree (usually a lot more actually). Unfortunately, it like everything else was gamed, and I removed it.

These days, I don't have any income in SL, and very little left in the way of L$. So I am afraid I can't volunteer. I NEED my L$500 a week, or I might as well just leave.
_____________________
http://siobhantaylor.wordpress.com/
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
05-28-2006 04:30
From: Musuko Massiel
"Doesn't change the fact that this stipend removal hhas just blown at least 80% of the market for content creators"

Bollocks. Going here:

https://secondlife.com/currency/market.php

I see that in five days, there are as many Lindens purchased on Lindex than LindenLabs hand out in stipends for a MONTH.

And I want VALUE of money, not QUANTITY. L$1,000,000 is useless to me if I can only sell it for $10.

The sky is not falling.

Musuko.


Whereas 1 million lindens are EQUALLY the same value to me regardless of weather you can sell it for 10 USD or 10000 USD. The sky is not falling..nor am I ending my boycott of the lindex.
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Shaun Altman
Fund Manager
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,011
05-28-2006 04:32
From: Jonas Pierterson
Whereas 1 million lindens are EQUALLY the same value to me regardless of weather you can sell it for 10 USD or 10000 USD. The sky is not falling..nor am I ending my boycott of the lindex.


Have you figured out yet that nobody cares? :) Just curious. :)
_____________________
Regards,
Shaun Altman
Fund Manager
Metaverse Investment Fund
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
05-28-2006 04:34
From: Shaun Altman
Have you figured out yet that nobody cares? :) Just curious. :)


Just because few on this forum care doesn't mean noone cares. :)

If an idea can't take an opposing viewpoint in stride, then what is it worth, really?

And at least I'm not calling everyone names like some on other threads. :)
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Shaun Altman
Fund Manager
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,011
05-28-2006 04:41
From: Jonas Pierterson
Just because few on this forum care doesn't mean noone cares. :)

If an idea can't take an opposing viewpoint in stride, then what is it worth, really?

And at least I'm not calling everyone names like some on other threads. :)


I'm not calling you any names. I'm just pointing out that LindeX volume seems to be good, even with all the weight of your boycott bearing down on the exchange. :)
_____________________
Regards,
Shaun Altman
Fund Manager
Metaverse Investment Fund
Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
05-28-2006 04:41
From: Musuko Massiel
"Doesn't change the fact that this stipend removal hhas just blown at least 80% of the market for content creators"

Bollocks. Going here:

https://secondlife.com/currency/market.php

I see that in five days, there are as many Lindens purchased on Lindex than LindenLabs hand out in stipends for a MONTH.


You need to subtract from that the L$ that are paid for land, which are pretty much cashed out again straight away to pay off the US$ fee that was paid for that land. For this same reason land prices in L$ are constantly being updated to reflect the market so the traded volume will tend to go up when the L$ devalues.
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
05-28-2006 04:46
From: Shaun Altman
I'm not calling you any names. I'm just pointing out that LindeX volume seems to be good, even with all the weight of your boycott bearing down on the exchange. :)


Not you Shaun, you treat both sides respectfully. I refer to thsoe who call pro-stipend users 'socialists' and such. On a side note.. isn't amazing how the two shouting to end stipends have yet to offer to give theirs up?
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
05-28-2006 04:48
From: Yumi Murakami
Two questions to ponder:

If it is true that it is mainly due to stipend that the value of the L$ is falling, then...

* Why has the value of WoW Gold, which is constantly created, remained relatively static? (It's a very low value but it hasn't devalued.)

* Why has the value of credits on IMVU, which has a content creation system like SL but has never had any form of regular stipend, nonetheless devalued?


Very good points...
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Bloop Cork
This space for sale.
Join date: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
05-28-2006 08:41
From: KatanaBlade Anubis
didnt read any of these post just going to say that I have a money tree taking my stipend to give to the newbies. So technically I havent been getting stipend every week anyways for my own personal use.

I dont think ending our stipend is the magic solution. I pay far more then 500 a week in advertising and uploads. LL gets its back.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, KatanaBlade!. We may not agree on what needs to be done but I appreciate and respect your input.
Bloop Cork
This space for sale.
Join date: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
05-28-2006 08:43
From: Mad Wombat
How about "Dying Squirrel"? :D


Or the Flaming Lindens? :)
Bloop Cork
This space for sale.
Join date: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
05-28-2006 08:48
From: Raivann Brissot
I totally agree that all stipends should be ended.

I'll happily volunteer to give up my 500L$ stipend, but until enough people agree to make it worth the effort, or Linden Labs enforce it, I'll stick it into Money Trees to help the newbies who are coming up without stipends to get a start in a new Second Life with, hopefully, a stable economy.

Thanks for your suggestion, Raivann!

Giving your Lindens to newbies is a generous gesture. However, it does not address the issue of an ever increasing money supply since those Lindens still enter the economy.

When you are ready, and you think enough people have signed on, I'll add you to the list.
Bloop Cork
This space for sale.
Join date: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
05-28-2006 08:59
From: KatanaBlade Anubis
Getting rid of Stipend jsut isnt the magic solution. economy was fine until a few months after GOM shut down. SL has been around alot longer then Lindex.

You are correct. We have not said that it is THE solution.

I realize that you have not read through this massive tome and that is fine. If you had, you would see that we are saying that the increasing money supply is a major issue and that it is a result of stipends. It is not the only issue that needs to be addressed and therefore it will not by itself correct the problem. But, it is a major step that can be taken now.
Bloop Cork
This space for sale.
Join date: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
05-28-2006 09:03
From: Siobhan Taylor
Well, I do approve and support this idea of opting out of stipends. As a premium member, I did "opt out" myself for a long time by feeding my L$500 a week into my money tree (usually a lot more actually). Unfortunately, it like everything else was gamed, and I removed it.

These days, I don't have any income in SL, and very little left in the way of L$. So I am afraid I can't volunteer. I NEED my L$500 a week, or I might as well just leave.

Thanks for your post, Siobhan! We understand your situation and appreciate your support.

You are more than welcome to join us at our Stipend burning party even though you will not be burning yours.
Bloop Cork
This space for sale.
Join date: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
05-28-2006 09:15
From: Jonas Pierterson
I refer to thsoe who call pro-stipend users 'socialists' and such. On a side note.. isn't amazing how the two shouting to end stipends have yet to offer to give theirs up?

I appreciate your point of view, Jonas. We don't have to agree to get alone.

I, like you, am also amazed that more have not joined the volunteer cause. Stating that "I will only do it if every one else does" is a cop out.

Grass roots advocacy starts with the first person and builds from there. It is often the grass roots efforts that get corporations and governments to take note.

I believe that if a person has been a vocal critic of stipends and then waits to climb aboard after everyone else, that shows a lack of commitment. The exception is when that person cannot afford to give up their stipends. In those situations, as has been demonstrated in this thread, those people still offer support to our cause.

So, with that said--who's next?
Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
05-28-2006 09:57
While it does seem a noble and altriustic to voluntarily sacrifice your stipends... I'm not sure if I see the value in signing up yet.

Who is hurt more by a declining L$? Content providers? or people that play the 'money' game for personal profit? (whether they provide content with merit or not).

There is a finite amount of money that comes into the Lindex each day. Call me selfish, but I would prefer a larger percentage of that money go to the people that make SecondLife a world WORTH visiting.

With the exception of LL, (because their revenue supports SecondLife directly), I do not see the need, value or benefit in rewarding people that buy merely money to sell money for personal profit, and creating a system that encourages this practice does nothing but attract people that have no need to provide competitive content in order to 'win'.

Sure, LL gets 3.5% plus $0.30 per transaction... and with money sellers buying and selling L$ that means instead of 1 set of fees, using the market sell feature is generating 2x the Lindex fees for LL. (seller --fees-> trader --fees-> consumer).

But does merely trading L$ really benefit SecondLife enough to justify giving these money traders a non-trivial amount of the USD that our consumers are bringing into the Lindex?

Maybe I'm just looking at this wrong... but right now with the ever cheaper L$ we have an environment that encourages consumers, punishes traders and (arguably) doesn't impact merchants either way. While merchants get less value per sale, they have an excellent opportunity to increasing the quantity of their sales. "Making it up in volume" is the inevitable shift that follows competitive markets.

Shutting out consumers by strengthening the L$ doesn't automatically mean more revenue. It means more value per sale... but fewer sales.

So... sorry, I won't be joining the voluntary stipend burning party just yet. I'll keep listening though... if I hear a more compelling case I'll certainly re-consider.

--
Always an outsider.
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
05-28-2006 10:29
From: Jopsy Pendragon
Who is hurt more by a declining L$? Content providers? or people that play the 'money' game for personal profit? (whether they provide content with merit or not).


A few thoughts on this Jopsy. I'd say more content providers are hurt that people trading money, and many seem to be saying they're hurting. Content providers have fixed US$ costs. Devaluation of L$ makes that harder to recoup. Whether they can make that up on volume, depends on the nature of their business and product, and whether they can reach enough extra customers to achieve that volume is another question. Maybe they could raise their prices, but many seem to resist doing this in SL, so there's every chance that a number of your direct competitors are offering a better price, making you expensive by comparison.

Whereas it doesn't really punish people trading L$ whatsoever. You don't have those fixed costs at all. You can make money trading even while the L$ is losing value. I did a few trades out of curiousity, to learn more about how things work. I'm not now, I'm way too busy and it's nowhere near as satisfying as making things, I learned what I wanted to know, to repeat the exercise would be boring, but I can tell you from this, that you can buy and sell pretty fast before devaluation hits you.

Add to that, there are very few people who trade. Whereas there are a hell of a lot of content providers. So even if it hurt both, which it doesn't, it hurts significantly more content providers.
_____________________
Lusus Stiglitz
Registered User
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 4
Stipend. No stipEND
05-28-2006 10:55
O.k. I read as many of these threads as I could muster, but not nearly all of them. So I apologize if I missed some things.

But here is my point of view as a new member (not even a premium member yet)

I am looking around, playing around, reading, learning and getting a feel for all that SL is and has to offer. I think it's great, and the idea of certain possibilities makes me moist.

But here is my issue. I don't know what the economy USED to be. I only know what it is now. And as a new member, I am having trouble getting over the cost of starting ANY kind of life here. At 117 prims for the basic parcel of land, you can barely do anything. I see small vehicles that are more than that. Single objects all over the place that use more than 117 prims. I see stores and homes and artwork that use thousands.

I cannot afford to pay the US$ for enough land to make this interesting for me. (And by that, I mean that what interests me is the building, and scripting, and getting creative, and seeing what others have done - i.e not just chatting) I would like to build an interesting place, like the places I have seen others do, but at the present cost of prims, I don't see any way that it will happen.

It's the age old economic issue. How do I get enough money to start the business that makes enough money to continue?

I know that you are only asking for volunteers here. I also understand that, those of you who have participated in building all this richness which is SL, have to be very concerned about the economy in order to preserve your lives and what you have done here. And if by some of you giving up your stipends, you can strengthen the economy then great. But on the other end of the spectrum, we have a different issue, and if it is not addressed, then this whole thing is going to turn into a very tricked out chat room. If none of the new comers have money to spend, then they won't build, they won't buy, and no of this will matter. You still won't be able to pay your bills, and people like me will just simply leave.

I guess what I am saying is that addressing the issue from just one end is not a solution. We should be talking about the whole problem, from both ends.

I don't know what that solution would be. I am new and still trying figure it all out, but obviously, a good many of the people involved in this discussion already are thinking about the same issue. Can we redirect this topic a little?

I suppose what needs to be done, is that a new topic be started, but I wanted to post here to get an idea of interest levels.

How do we simultaneously promote the proliferation of new builders and creators, while not putting a constant strain on the economy as a whole by constantly printing more money?
Cold Heart
Registered User
Join date: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 7
05-28-2006 11:11
Governor Linden logs on and dumps his newly found stipend bonus and income on lindeX.
1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13