Volunteer to End Your Premium Acct. Stipends

Jopsy, thanks for your input into our very long discussion! I appreciate your point of view and agree with your above statements.

Below are a few points you make that I see differently:



Actually, the traders are not being punished. The unstable currency market acts in their favor. The larger the spread between selling and buying, the better opportunities traders have to profit. When a market is more stable, it is more difficult for traders to find profitable opportunities.



We have no direct interest in seeing the Linden at any particular trading value. We are not trying to strengthen the Linden, we are trying to stabilize the currency market so that the types of problems we have seen occur with less frequency. One key way to do that is to tighten the money supply--i.e. reduce the amount of newly created money entering the system. Once stabilized, the market will find its own vlaue for the Linden.



We appreciate your support all the same and hope that someone can make a case sufficiently compelling to have you come on board! Also, in my view, you are not an outsider.

I won't argue with the first point... but it does discourage a very small minority of people from buying up huge quantities of L$ to manipulate the market.

A dedicated trader could easily turn over the same volume of L$ as *many* content providers though. No?

To me it comes down to choosing between undesirables:

a scenario with perpetual devaluation of the L$ but which fosters competition among content providers for USDs,

or a scenario with a 'healthier' L$ where more people can more successfully compete for USD without offering content.

Neither will effectively bring more USD into the Lindex... they just determine who those USD are going to.

--
"Sure I add value! I buy cheap L$ and charge you more for them." -- (not me)

First of all, welcome to SL and the furious world of SL Forums, Lusus! Thank you for your input. We appreciate what you have to say.



You are absolutely correct! The issue with money supply is only one of several that need to be addressed. But, it is one that can be addressed relatively quickly and one the residents of SL have more control over than the other issues. Therefore, that is why I started this thread asking for volunteers.



We need an economic summit to address many topics and share our ideas and concerns. It would also be a great opportunity for those who have little experience with the inner workings of economies to learn.



Yes, you have hit on one of the fundamental issues. It is not an easy answer and it is even more difficult to implement since some group will always feel unfairly treated. That's the way it works in the RW also. Being proactive about something takes vision and guts. Whether the suggested solution(s) were the appropriate ones, only time can tell.

You're gravy Bloop. Only a few are going around calling pro-stipend folks socialists.

Hey, thanks, Jonas!

While you are busy doing something about this, you might also do something about the land glut, which is the real problem.

Maybe buy it all?

coco

Wow, nice that you make an alt just for the occasion!

Y'all should be proud.

The increase of Money supply is coming from
1. too many members joining for FREE and having full rights to do everything but buying land. oh and lets not forget

2. the Hungry Camping Chair owners just needing to give stupid amount of money just so they get get to popuar places and cheat developers incentives that was taken away from a lot of honest business people that can use a 15 dollar cut off their teirs. so Campers didnt work for their money they didnt earn it what do they care how much they sell it. Lindens are only valued when you are sitting at the desk making a dent in your computer chair learning and growing with the community.

3. also the teen grid is using the same market as the adult grid, highly unfair to both grids IMO because we sell completely different things, heance adult grids biggest seller *coughporncough*

4. lets not forget more then half of SL can't understand the market so they easily make mistakes and buyers are waiting to feed on that very obvious when someone is trying to buy 5 million lindens for 63 US dollars, shame on them.

5. also lets NOT forget the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of lindens sitting ont he Lindex not returned after a limited time if not sold making people have a massive visual fear that there is too many Linden Dollars in the world, return the money to the sellers and buyers in 2 weeks max. People making their money sit in like a bank rather then taking it out, god maybe even banned people letting it sit there but never returning!

I can find 101 logical things wrong with the way the economy is working in SL.
The first place I would start if I was Phillip Linden is hire expert financial advisors that worked with real stock markets, retail, and taxes. Mind you I have no clue who is the financial advisor, but what ever their advice is.......it isnt working.

Ending a premium stipend is like saying the only thing you are paying for is right to pay us more money for land plus buy the land on TOP of your monthly. Free Basic can just rent off you earning 100% profit. *knocks on the glass* wonder who is on the other side of the looking glass because that rabbit hole sure looks awful dark.

Thanks for your comment, Cocoanut. Although it is a nice suggestion, many of us who are volunteering cannot afford to buy more land.

I have as much as I can afford right now and will not be buying anymore until my shop provides sufficient cash flow. I, like many others who have volunteered, am a content creator. My shop must pay for itself or I will close it.

However, simply buying up the available land is not a solution. It is a Band-Aid at best. Why? Because in SL, and unlike in RL, land is not in finite supply. It is theoretically infinite in supply.

Have you read this recent thread about the land glut? I have brought this issue up weeks ago in several different threads and have posted in the thread below also:

/130/23/109422/1.html

The money supply is just one of several issues that need to be addressed. The rate at which land is being created is another.

But, this thread is about money supply and one possible solution to address it.

Einsman:

Thanks for bringing this thread down a level or two. I respect differences in opinion but have no tolerance for attacks or trolls.

Those who know me in this forum and in-world are aware who I am and that I have no need for an alternate identity. I have shared my real life name and business with those who have asked and that I respect and can trust. In fact, I have mentioned before in this forum that I wish LL made it possible to use RL names.

I have no need to hide my RL identity or pretend to be someone else. I do not come here to role play. However, I have no choice but to create some fictitious name since LL does not offer any alternative.

Please refrain from posting further in this thread.

[yet another bitter sarcastic post from an 'armchair economist']

Dear Linden Lab

Please remove all stipends for the months of June and July.

I'm certain that the 30% of the players that actually seem to use the Lindex (based on numbers released a month or so ago), will have absolutely no problem buying 20% more L$ from now on, just keep the economy going as it is.

The rest, well, to bad. Buy or bye.

No, no, don't worry about me, I'll make my tier payments as usual. Might cost me a little more out of pocket, but I'll manage.

Oh, and certainly don't worry about the landlords defaulting on their tier payments because their renters' businesses didn't pay rent. They weren't really viable businesses anyways, so who cares right? Just think of all that extra land you'll be able to sell again! I'm sure it will all balance out just fine.

Make it so. Or, Whatever.


--
(And, Yes... I'm being sarcastic.)

I have some novel ideas

- spend the lindens
- put em on a money tree
-spend more lindens
- donate them to some non profit charity fund in game

- and more importantly spend the lindens!!!

oh and i forgot spend some Lindens..

(think i need sleep ..)

Boy, I think we could all use some sleep. This thread is just getting too long. But, thanks for your ideas, Wilhelm.

The issue here is how can we create a money supply that is in line with the number of actual consumers. By consumer, we mean people who participate in the currency market and buy Lindens first so that they can then use them to buy stuff in-world.

That is what basically happens in the RW--although people don't receive their money via a currency exchange; they get their money from their employer. I won't go into detail about how money is created in the RW and how it is balanced. Suffice it to say money is not free in the RW--at least for non-criminals.

But, unlike the RW, people are not required to earn money to exist in SL. That, in itself, is fine. However, it is the free money that is created each month that is at issue in this thread. Simply spending it in-world does not remove it from the money supply. It keeps it in circulation. Each month, more is added to the circulation, increasing the overall money supply.

In the RW, the central bank removes large volumes of currency each month from circulation in an attempt to keep the money supply in check. In SL, there is no such party doing that--at least at the level that is required to help stabilize the economy.

So, whereas I agree that we all need to support content creators to enable them to keep doing what they do best, we also need to support the economy by making sure in does not get out of balance.

Lmao right right. I think its pretty obvious what you're trying to do here. Lets see.. Jamie and ReserveBank haven't responded besides.. hmm oh lets see.. YOU.

And to take a look at your join date amongst with your point of interests posts, its just more meaningless rants that goes hmm NO WHERE. Wow, what a concept.

Can we say.. SCAM sucker? I think so. Have a nice day.

To manipulate the market for more than an instant would require so much money for so long it's not funny. To manipulate in the fashion and towards the goal currently enshrined in SL mythology, would require not hundreds of thousands of L$, but hundreds of thousands of US$. Whether this would even pay off is debatable. I don't see any evidence that this is happening.

Traders are neither discourage by the L$ gaining value or losing value, as I explained in my previous post. True, a dedicated trader could turn over a fair amount of Lindens... but not as much as you might think. Look at the buy orders, and the size of them. Then keep a tab on it all day, see how much of that money is actally moving, and you'll see the amounts actually being turned around are not that huge, and they result in less profit than you might imagine. This profit would not equate in any way to the loss of value being experienced by content providers.

A healthy L$ neither encourages or discourages traders. It just changes your strategy. Whatever your opinion of traders, they don't have any vested interest in any particular rate. The tradeoff you suggest doesn't exist.

This is crap. It is getting to be that you can't express an opinion either way without someone insulting you, questioning your character and motivations. I've never actually said I think stipends should be removed, and I've frequently argued against it. I can see areas for discussion on both sides of the issue however. I'm one of those annoying 'shades of grey' people.

I don't actually care what they do with stipends. It doesn't personally affect me either way, and nor does the value of the L$. What money I have, I hold in US$. I was interested in the discussion.

If this is how this dialogue is going to run however, I want no part of this discussion either way. People should be able to state their opinions without being treated like this, without being demonised, and I see it happening to people in both camps. Someone expresses an opinion you don't like, they're either a 'capitalist', a 'socialist', a 'money-grabber', or a 'freeloader'. Or an alt.

Take my name off the list, Bloop. I don't want any part of any discussion on this forum the way things are. Irrationality and bitterness is prevailing. I'll give my stipend to The Shelter, and move on. The Lindens can do what the fuck they want with the economy as far as I'm concerned, and I'll deal with the result. It's obviously not worth thinking about, and it's all the same to me.

I feel your frustration, Fade. I believe that almost all of us--no matter the point of view--have behaved in a mature manner in this thread. There have been a handful who keep trying to stir the embers of contempt and clearly cannot respect differing viewpoints.

The two posts from Einsman are some of the most inflammatory within this thread. I've been respectful and cordial to everyone else who's posted here, but his/her post required a stern response.

Don't let someone like Einsman make you lose faith, Fade. Your voice and viewpoints have added much value to this thread and others in the forum.

Having said that, I too have tired of the sophomoric idiocy that seems rampant within the Land and the Economy forums these days. It is not possible to respectfully offer a differing point of view without some moron coming along and fishing for a fight.

This, if any thing else, may become LL's biggest problem with the SL environment. I sure know that my RW business is steering clear from making any big investments in this world until issues like this can be handled.

I will take your name off the list, Fade. But please don't let the illogical voice of disrespect scare you away from speaking your mind. We need honest residents like you to keep the community sane and healthy.

Hello... *waves* I find it unfortunate that constructive and spirited discussion would be hampered by such derailments and disturbances. I've seen too many, particularly in Land and the Economy, as of late.

That being said, I hope this thread will remain on-topic--and any disagreements expressed should be civil ones about ideas, not attacks directed at another Resident's person.

Please see the Guidelines if there's any confusion about what's allowed on these forums. It's not hard to ask polite questions to someone else to gain a better understanding of their views.

Just an fyi to pro/anti-trader posts. I'm still trading. Things have slowed down quite a bit now. At present, it's possible to do maybe two, if you're lucky three, trades a day, mainly because buy orders get filled very slowly. Profit for a $100,000L trade is somewhere around $1000L to $2000L. In other words about $4 to $6US per trade from an initial investment of about $300US, which, by the way, drops in value due to inflation during the day as you're trading. So, essentially, you trade $300, you make $4, when you add that to that $300 and pull it out, it's all worth about $301. Granded the devaluation seems to have slowed a bit, but that's really pittance compared to what I can make at work, or what businesses in SL can make, or what is actually getting sold on SL every day instead of traded. I am trading for two reasons. One, this is one of the few reasons that I can keep the large amount of money I have invested in SL from loosing value (I have not actually cashed anything out since last September), since this lets me stay a little bit ahead of inflation, and two, this is a safe and much cheaper way for me to learn abot stocks, tracking values of money, and trading. So if someone out there is REALLY upset about someone else making a measely $5 every few hours from trading... eh. Don't know what to say.

Thanks for sharing your Lindex experiences, Rasah. It appears that the life of a big-time Lindex trader is not all that some make it out to be.

Do you see any positive signs that limit buys has helped slow the Linden devaluation?

Thanks for your post, Torley. I agree whole heartedly. We have had a great, and actually, almost entirely civil discussion in this thread. We should not let a small bump in the road cause us to lose focus.

So, with that said...

Updated list of residents who are opting out of premium account stipends (L$500/wk):

1. Me (Bloop Cork)
2. Nicole David
3. kerunix Flan
4. Kazanture Aleixandre
5. Mad Wombat
6. Jon Rolland
7. Derrick Cannoli
8. Alexander Yeats
9. Nephilaine Protagonist
10. Andie Ramona
11. Svar Beckersted

Updated list of residents who are opting out of basic account stipends (L$50/wk):

1. Rasah Tigereye (two basic accounts)
2. Merhain Speculaas
3. Andie Ramona (also, his two basic accounts)


We're at L$5750 per week. How many more residents do we need? Uh, too MANY!

Keep going! Remember, this is a volunteer program only. If you want to keep your stipends that is perfectly fine. You do not have to state that here. If you want to offer your support but want to keep your stipends, please state it in this thread.

We know there are more of you that are concerned with the affect of too many stipends on the SL money supply. Where are you? Step up to the plate and show your conviction!

Who's next?

You know, as long as the stipend amount remains static, the economy will stabilize.

My theory is that even if you get enough people to give up the stipend to have an acctual effect on $L value, you'll only be delaying, not stopping, the inevitable march torwards whatever stable $L value the economy could reasonably support.

Of course, that whole "slow down" thing is just an overly simplistic, crackpot pet theory of mine. I could always be wrong.

Oh hell yes. The margins were very wide when limit buys were implemented, and the $L value continued to decline, but as more limit buy orders were created and the margins shrunk, a lot of undercutting started happening on the other end. Essentially, while Limit Sell undercutting makes L$ drop in value, limit buy undercutting makes it go up in value. As a result it seems to have slowed the decline considerably, and from the various large limit buy orders I've seen it seems to have mainly done that by replacing undercutting with instant buy orders filling people's "need money now" needs. I actually don't know whether the curent stop/increase in $L value is due to the buy/sell orders (I think it has more to do with slowdown in panic selling due to new news, and possibly even more to do with this being the weekend and more people wanting to play, thus more selling), but the drop in margins (difference) between buy and sell orders definitely seems to have at least slowed down the decline.
Oh, one other thing I noticed. It used to be that if there was ever a $1,400,000 amount of money at a certain Limit Sell price, that would effectively serve as a wall past which the value of $L could never get through again. I.E. say the value of $L is $327, and enough people put their money at $327 to make it total over $1,400,000, you can be pretty sur that that'll never sell through, so people would undercut at $328, untill THAT would hit over $1mill L. Once the Buy orders stabilized, that doesn't seem to be the case much any more. I've seen two or three $1+mill orders get completely filled and eliminated already. Heck, even the curent $1.6mil amount at the $327 mark was down to $900k just a few hours ago. Again, this might just be the weekend demand for L$ to buy crap causing this, but heck, sometimes all that's needed in a market is a good mindset

I believe you're right. Eventually, even without the elimination of the $50 stippend for new freebies, the amount of new people with new stippends would be surpased by the amount of actual transactions being made in game, but I just think that if things are left to work out on their own, it would end up taking too long, and will hurt a lot of developers in the process (ones who are suffering right now). Also, I don't think anyone can be absolutely sure where exactly that $L value compared to the USD really is. For all we know it may be way too low as well. Kinda like with global warming, regardless of whether there are facts for it or not, it's just better to play it safe than to try to fix things when it's already too late.