An Observation and a Suggestion for the Mods

And it's a worthy goal

Glad to hear that you took action, (and I'm not saying that in a condescending way *grin*). I hope that it helps you from getting to your limit. And I hope too that the discourse that I've seen happening throughout general forums the past few days moves more towards what you and Coco want, (i.e. no personal insults), because as I said before I don't think "official" action would be good, nor would it help.

Thanks Katja nothing negative taken your right we all need to do the very best we can without crying "im a victim"

Cat

Cristiano and Kajta, I agree that the proposal about personal attacks is definitely the weakest, and the most difficult to interpret and enforce.

At the very base of everything - and I know this from knowing and talking with TSO mods for a couple of years - it comes down to the mods' decisions, often discussed with other mods. I think the mods I have known have been pretty good about being as objective as they can (considering they knew most of the people, lol), and then make an assessment, and generally trying to err on the side of leniency.

This is the sort of assessment that can never be made by a machine, or out of context, or going entirely by inflexible rules.

However, I think the Lindens have undermined the mods' job, allowed open season on disliked posters, and damaged their own game by saying, "We strongly discourage [various personal attacks], but oh well."

Therefore, I think that sentence needs to come out. When I first joined, and read the TOS, I thought, woah! And sure enough, people have interpreted that as pretty much be as nasty as you wanna be. The results aren't pretty, either. People end up determined to crush the life out of posters they wish would leave, and discouraging new posters from posting again by being too harsh.


However, I think stating something as fact when it isn't is also call for rebuke. It's one thing to unnecessarily call people names, or suggest they are - well, any number of horrible personal things - but quite another to stand up for your rights when you have been accused of something you haven't done. In your case, Cristiano, when that statement(s) about what you did with ip addresses was made, it deserved a warning. I said so then, to everyone, and I say so now. It was wrong.

So really, just taking out that, "Go ahead guys, duke it out all you want" sentence from the TOS, and becoming more on the strict side in enforcing it - is what I mean by that proposal. I figure that most of the problems on these forums wouldn't even be here if people were required to be at least as civil as people are generally expected to be in the grocery store. Or - PTA meeting is probably a better analogy. (I hear some of those can get pretty heated.)

This is an odd position for me to take, because I am like most mods - I want to be as lenient as possible, and allow as much free speech as possible.

But when one person's free speech harms another, damages their reputation in the game, causes them unnecessary emotional distress, is intended to provoke a fight, and deprives any player of their abiity to participate freely and with relative pleasure in these, the only official forums for the game, then the right to free speech takes back seat to the right of other posters to post in peace and dignity, and to play and enjoy their game.

All of the well-intended advice to ignore it, rise above it, control your response to it - all that - only goes so far, folks. After a while, it becomes apparent that no single human should be expected to endure it from a group. I really think you have to be there to know what I mean.

At a certain point, it is better to try to stem the attacks, rather than provide therapy for how individuals can better withstand those attacks. Spend more time stopping the people doing the personal attacks and the beating up on, and stop spending time trying to toughen up the recipients to learn to take it and even dish it out themselves.

It also isn't good for the game to have official forums where you get on and see people call anyone names with impunity.

So I guess that's all I have to say on that. Just to say I agree that it is a tricky balance, but I think the mods can handle it. They just need a less wishy-washy TOS to back them up.

coco

And there it is. Your writing style has suddenly changed while becoming simultaneously voluminous. You know what I'm talking about.

~Ulrika~

Ulrika, I am just not Prok.

I just am not. I know it's kind of fun for you to think so, and indeed, it's kind of fun for me to try to figure out what I could do to prove it to you! But the bottom line is, I'm just not him. We are very different people.

coco

That's not what I was talking about silly. You know. The other thing. Wink wink.

~Ulrika~

I am afraid of the change you are trying to make. Since the new rules, no one has belittled me or said my opinion was not important.

I am afraid that if any changes are made according to your plan, I will once again be a target.

Does my fear not count?

Tying forum behavior to in-world behavior is very NOT wishy-washy to me. With that said, I would like to agree that the TOS very much needs to clearly state that abuse of other players is not tolerated on any level, and not merely frowned upon. I do agree with you wholeheartedly there. But, to speak up about how I feel about your proposal that forum behavior and in-world behavior should not be tied...

I am of the opinion that forum behavior and in-world behavior are NOT two seperate things. If I choose to behave completely inappropriately and maintain that behavior (and the key, is that I would have to maintain it, and would have been warned many times) then I would be as equally likely to behave inappropriately in-world.

Granted, this is a simplistic analogy, but let's say that a teenager comes home late on a school night. The first time, she is warned. The second time, she is warned, and reminded that if she does it again there will be severe consequences. The teenager shows up home late a third time. Her punishment? Hanging out at the library is out of the question from that point forward, but the mall (hey, teenagers do still love malls right? I mean, I'm not that old, am I?) is a-ok.

Oh! You mean THAT! You know I can't talk out loud about that!

coco

But others have still had to endure this, April.

Nikki, some of the reasons why the forums and in world are different places:

The nature of in world is NOT mainly that people gather together in one place and talk about things, give their opinions, or debate things. This occasionally happens, but in very low proportion to all else that happens in world.

On the forums, that is ALL people do - talk about things, give there opinions, or debate things. The discussion here doesn't take place in an environment which is visually rich, and rich with action and other distractions.

The purpose of being in world is not, primarily, to discuss issues, including contentious ones. The purpose of the forums, in addition to advertising, talking about rl, etc., is to do exactly that.

The nature of in world is that people can report abuse. They generally do this for actual acts that have taken place, but also in response to verbal abuse. In addition, people in world have the option of neg-rating others to express their displeasure.

The nature of the forum is that people report abuse ONLY for what they consider verbal abuse. In addition, there is no neg-rating on the forums.

In world, you can see how much neg-rating an individual has done. Here, you can't see or even reliably guess at who all might have reported you for what. Only the mods know.

The ramifications of such two entirely different systems are self-evident. The forums are ripe for heated arguments; the game far less so. In addition, people are more disembodied here than in the game, making everyone somehow feel more free to speak their mind.

People are more inclined to report any slight from someone who disagrees with them on an issue than they will be to report one who they mostly agree with. The mods don't, for the most part, act on things which were said but not reported. This heavily slants the playing field toward those who report more, leaving at a disadvantage those who report less. From this unlevel playing field springs the ability to ultimately deprive someone from their game, and, in fact, separate them from their own personal real-life money invested in the game.

If you want SL to be like the real world, you can't confiscate people's goods because they said things on the boards other players didn't like. (Especially if they NEVER broke the TOS while doing so.) Now if any lawsuit stands a chance of succeeding, it will be the first person who is banned for what he says on the forums and the Lindens confiscate his game holdings.

The main difference, boiled down, is that one venue is for DISCUSSION and the other is for PLAYING.

Due to the complex possibilities of language, and of thought, and different thought systems, what's one person's idea of a reasonable forum discussion of sociological strata becomes another person's fightin' words. Or, what one person thinks of as joking, another takes offense at. Neither should lose his game for that miscalculation.

In the game, people don't sit around and think up and type whole long posts like this one. There is more give and take, and in real-world time. Here, people sit around, like I'm doing now, and make whole huge cases for things; the easier to hang oneself, you might say.

In the game, words are more ephemeral. If a person does call you a mean name, it's easy to walk out and think, what an idiot. Here, a name called is a name that STAYS. Hence, the ability of one name called by many to take on a reputation-ruining life of its own.

They are two different environments, with two different purposes. You can invite people here to share their views, and get involved in heated discussions on the forums, and say, "Of course, if you just can't handle the forums properly, you can't post here."

But you can't invite people here to share their views, get involved in heated discussions on the forums, and say, "Of course, if you just can't handle the forums properly, you can't post OR play the game." In that case, the forums almost start to look like entrapment.

coco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrika Zugzwang
And there it is. Your writing style has suddenly changed while becoming simultaneously voluminous. You know what I'm talking about.

~Ulrika~

Ulrika, I am just not Prok.



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I just am not. I know it's kind of fun for you to think so, and indeed, it's kind of fun for me to try to figure out what I could do to prove it to you! But the bottom line is, I'm just not him. We are very different people.

coco

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Ok I gotta say something here. I don't think that Coco is Prok. BUT I see that being brought up once again. How many months have we heard that now? That type of behavior should not be allowed. Its harrasment. The question was asked and answered many many times.

No one else will say it I will:

Knock it off, act like an adult.

Uh, that's not what was being talked about.





Looks pretty friendly to me.

I wish you didn't feel the need to be so combative.

I still think forum behavior should be tied to SL behavior and I don't think changing this will change how people behave. I would like the rules to stay the way they are.

I am afraid if the rules change things will go back to the way they were.

Besides, I was under the impression that the link was to avoid people banned in the forum from coming back with alts.

Please don't change the rules. I'm begging you. I can't go back to the way it was before when I was afraid to post. I was afraid to post, isn't that awful? At least you've never been afraid to post.

Please, I like the rules just the way they are.

April, honey! I'm glad I look so confident. And at base, I really am confident, in that I know my place in the world, and that can't get shaken by anything anyone says here.

But I have not only been afraid to post, I've been afraid to post for so long it's almost second nature to me now. I usually don't have much of that funny feeling any more looking to see what has been said in response, the one where you kind of steel yourself for it. Or, when I do have it, I'm so used to it now it almost doesn't feel like fear anymore.

coco

The rules work; they're not going anywhere.

Also, sesame oil is great for seasoning thin-sliced chicken. Don't use too much.

I do have to say that for someone in such dire fear of posting, you have quite a post count there for only being here a few months.

Who died and made you a Linden?

coco

The same could be asked of you and your efforts to change their rules.

Not at all.

coco

P.S. Gadzooks, you're right! That is a horrendous post count!

Wouldn't have been that way if it hadn't been for all this.

If you know enough to ask that, you know I can't tell you.

(edit: no, no, don't start any rumors. I'm just shitting you guys. It was too good to pass up.)

You don't happen to have a catfish recipe do you? You know, for the kind you catch in channels.

Oh my lord, I am starting to put it all together - the sandwich references, the chain smoking...you are Reuben Linden

(for the satirically challenged, 'tis a joke)

Wow look at who is against this idea I am so shocked!!!

/end sarcasm

No need to reply I'm talking to the 90% of ppl to freaked out by the bias in these forums to post

/end sarcasm


Why don't you fellas move your recipe swapping to your own off topic thread

LOL

Well Coco, you may be afraid to post, but I actually didn't post for several months. If you look at my posting history, you will see prior to the rule changes, I very rarely posted because I was afraid of the abuse.

Lately, it's been a breath of fresh air. I post and people actually say nice things to me. I ask you again, please don't change the forums. I like them just the way they are.

I would be afraid if they change I would not be able to post any longer. That is my fear. Please don't let this happen.

Right, I understand. But . . . for others of us it is just as bad, if not worse, than before.

Besides, isn't the person who made you miserable before gone now?

coco

Reading further up - what is this about channels?

And - get your recipes off this thread.