An Observation and a Suggestion for the Mods

The beautiful thing about a forum where most of what's exchanged is opinion is that there really is no "right" or "wrong." There's only what you think and what other people think. Sometimes people get too hung up in believing that their opinion is so superior to everyone else's, or so important, that it bears repeating endlessly. That's when it turns from an exchange of ideas into preaching. The more removed the opinion being preached is from the opinions of others, the more certain it is to be met with heated resistance.

When an idea is first presented you never know how it will be received. If it's received poorly and proves to be unpopula and the person continues to hammer away at it often and at length then I'm left to assume that they're more interested in the fight than in the actual opinion. It becomes secondary... simply a means to an end. The end they're seeking is the opportunity to stand on the soapbox, feel attacked, misunderstood, and indignant. It becomes a deliberate form of roleplay.



I've no doubt that's true, but human behavior is fascinating and a forum is a perfect laboratory for observing it. I think people just have to accept that they're always going to be judged on more than simply their opinions. Their behavior and motivations are also on display and the perceptions formed by other people about them, right or wrong, are inseperable from how their opinions will be received and responded to, especially if they've moved beyond merely expressing an opinion into the realm of preaching it. At that point the opinion truly is secondary, not just to them but to everyone else.



Bingo!

Of course all of the above is simply my opinion.

No one ever said everything anyone did here was wrong. Equally no one can say everything someone does is right.

There are ways of doing or saying things to accomplish your goals that can be part of a fair interchange. I think everyone of us may have stepped over the line at one time. Some more than others.

It's the personal attacks some have engaged in, but we've gone over that over and over and over again, that differs some from others.

At this point, I think it would benefit everyone to move on. Whether what happened was right or wrong is and will always be a matter of "individual" perceptions.

By saying anyone is 100% right ignores and belittles the feelings and concerns of others.

I think everyone is saying they feel wronged in some way. I have felt that way too.

At this point the obvious solution is not to try to find out exactly how much someone is wrong and how much someone is right, but to move forward to good discussions.

Prokofy is beside the point.

He is no longer on the forums. In fact, he is forever saved from ever losing his game because of anything he said here. He is the last one to enjoy that. Previous to him, everyone banned from the forums still had their game. After him, no one will.

The point now is us. Prokofy is not going to benefit, at least not particularly directly, by any of the reforms I propose.

And these will be:

1. Rescind the rule that says being banned from the forums automatically means you are banned from the game.

2. Rewrite the TOS to excise the sentence about "strongly discouraged" and make those terms themselves against the TOS. (Nothing is gained by giving people the right to call others "liars" and "jerks." Making personal attacks should be against the rules of the forum. Then enforce these rules consistantly.

3. Ensure that no thread will be closed down because someone has chosen to post pictures, go off-topic, or make personal attacks. The individual who does that should be made to leave the thread, if necessary, but those who are conducting themselves reasonably should be allowed to continue the discussion.

Now, there may be those of you entertained by watching all the name-calling and clever nastiness go on day after day, but the ones on the receiving end of the bulk of it aren't. And those people are paying members of the game who have an inherent right not to be bullied in these forums.

Every player has an inherent right to speak with dignity on these forums, and without fear. And no player should ever lose their game because of what they have said on the forums.

coco

You continue to ignore the fact that any individual in danger of being removed from Second Life will first receive several warnings. Why is this so hard to acknowledge? You're coming across as very alarmist.

We all know they will receive several warnings first, Enabran.

coco

i agree with you, coco, that banning from forums should not mean banning from SL in its entirety, but i disagree with your methods. quit posting this same thing in every thread. this thread (which you started) was initially about moderating, closing of threads to be specific. then you started posting about cat cotton. then about woe is you. then prokofy. now it's not about prokofy, it's about forum bannings.

the reason i can rarely understand what you are talking about is that you fail to stick to an idea and follow it through. that and you choose not to respond to any criticism that would unravel (what i see as) the fantasy world you've constructed around yourself.

big hugs

Then how is the danger so dire? If one's actions are so dramatically bad to warrant removal, won't they be notified well in time so that they can remedy their behavior?

Enabran,

That's a good point. I mean, I think if someone steps too far, they're not going to be just randomly kicked from the forums and game. I, for one, am not scared to say what I think on the forums. I figure, if I overstep myself, either someone will tell me individually, or a Linden will give me a warning.

That will tell me right there, oh, calling Enabran a dirty apron wearing cook (not that I think this) is not appropriate by TOS standards. Then I'll know, insulting people's clothes and cooking is wrong. (my attempt at some levity, which is now flatter than the flattest pancake).

So, yeah, Coco, you do know that right? I mean, is there a reason that a warning or two or three or four won't suffice to curtail behavior that is violating the TOS? And how that translates into being fearful on say my part?

I mean, how many warnings did Prok have before he was permanently banned? And we also don't know because they can choose to tell us or not, how many warnings those RESPONDING to Prok had. It's not like I'm going to come in and say "woot, Linden warned me to cut out calling Enabran a dirty apron wearing cook". I'm going to keep that shite to myself.

Thank you, Katja. That's exactly it, exactly what I was saying. Now you join the small group of calm, rational people who I must learn from in order to communicate more calmly and rationally myself.


Damn the hot-headedness of youth.

The problem isn't with the number of warnings given, or that the Lindens try to give people every possible chance or not.

The problem is the difference between - run that red light three times, buddy, and you lose your license for a year.

Or - run that red light three times and it's the electric chair for you, buddy.

The rule does more harm than good, in a number of ways I've talked about before. And it's completely unnecessary. The only real use it serves is to make people mind their p's and q's a bit more so the mods don't have to do as much work. But as we've seen, even that doesn't really work.

Enabran, sorry if you have trouble following me, if I move from one aspect of the thing to another. But I'm working these things out as I go, with the help of the rest of you. What I laid about above is what I have to propose in the way of forum reform so far.

coco

P.S. Catherine came up, yes - but I believe my first response was to point out this thread was not about Catherine. And above, I pointed out that Prok was beside the point. Maybe you disagree with my methods, Enabran - that's fine. But if you agree with any of the propositions I've laid out, forget about me and keep your eyes on the prize!

I haven't been banned, and neither has coco as far as I know.

I don't believe I said otherwise. I said what I said. Kindly read more literally.

Coco,

I find this point extremely troubling for several different reasons. For one thing, I have both witnessed and experienced myself people in these forums posting a lie about someone - not an opinion about them, but a direct statement of a fact that is untrue. To not be able to call someone on a lie serves no purpose except to protect those who are lying.

It's all semantics. You can say someone is lying, that they have told a lie, and that they are a liar. None of these is a personal attack if it is backed up with a statement of what you are accusing them of lying about. To squelch that speech would be detrimental to being able to defend ourselves, and we already have a disciplinary system in SL that doesn't allow you to know who accused you or what you are even really accused of.

Also, Linden Lab already determines what are personal attacks in their estimation. It is way too grey of an area to make a hard and fast rule about personal attacks. It needs to be subject to their interpretation. No change is needed in this regard, except perhaps stricter enforcement.

I am in agreement on your other two points, though I do think you are being way too alarmist about the forum banning/SL banning situation.

Absolutly; I realy am afraid that what I might say here could in fact cost me my island and everything I have in SL. I don't think its fair to take away my SL because of any view I may have in the forums. Especialy when I can be driven over the edge by the same folks brow beating belittling and out and out insulting me for over two years. No that doesn't seem fair to me at all.

Cat

No one is going to be suspended from anything because of views they hold. They will be suspended for bad behavior. Anyone not in total control of their behavior should be scared. Anyone who can act like an adult and understand the consequences when they are being warned has nothing to worry about.

Precisely.

Excellent post.

In my opinion, no one is in danger of losing anything. Since the new rules have been in effect, has anyone been banned?

To my knowledge this has not happened.

What has happened is that people have engaged in a reasonable intelligent discourse. In my opinion.

Unless something has changed, I don't see LL changing the rules.

If the rules are making us think before posting something inflammatory, then that is a good thing.

If someone post something that you feel is an attack, use the system.

I live in a not so good neighborhood. People have a tendency to get carried away. A young woman in my building got in a lot of trouble because "some girl said something about her", so she hit the girl and they ended up in a very loud disturbing fight.. When I asked her why she didn't just ask the girl to leave her apt. She said the girl wouldn't leave. I said well at that point she should have called the police. She said she wasn't a narc. Well instead of doing what I would deem the civil thing, the two young women ended up in jail for disturbing the peace. I heard the fighting in the hallway as 2am and I called the police. Of course, I could have gone out in the hallway and tried to break it up and I could have ended up in the hospital or worse. Instead, as a responsible member of society, I called the authorities and allowed them to handle it.

Accept responsibility for your own behavior.

~Ulrika~

Okay, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with the whole ban the forum user, ban the game player. In fact, I agree that this might go too far.

I do disagree with the alarmist tone that's being sounded.

I also disagree with the cries of the falling sky being sounded. The "fear" that is supposedly to be felt by all forum users. If I think I'm going to be insulting, or if I feel I can't handle replying to something, I do something really simple. I walk away for awhile. This is true whether there is a rule like that or not. It is my responsibility how I behave. It is my responsibility how I _react_ to people's actions. No one can make me angry, no one can hurt me. Only I can allow people to anger me, only I can allow people to hurt me. There is an initial reaction, yes, if you call me a wishy washy stupid mental tard, yeah I'm going to be first hurt and then angry. However, how I react to that, the actions I take in response? Those are my choices. Therefore, I feel no fear. As I said before, if I step over the line and get a warning, well then, I know I screwed up and I need to correct my behavior.

I agree with Cris, to impose a straightforward no name calling could become very rigid and make an even worse climate. I mean, what's to say that if I disagree with someone that they wouldn't take something I said in disagreement and accuse me of insulting them? Coco, your very point could hurt even you. Someone that you talk about ganging up on you or having a mob mentality towards someone could turn around and say you were calling them a name.

Then, if there were stringent guidelines and it wasn't within the gray matter that Linden currently judges and moderates, you could find yourself with a warning or more.

So, while your intentions are great, and while the result you want is great, some of the things would just move the forum from one extreme to the other and it wouldn't solve anything.



***P.S.****
Sorry about the bad grammar. Sorry about the run on sentences. I'd fix this but my brain is fried right now and I'd just replace it with different ones

Try telling that to Prok who was banned from the forums and did risk his sl. We all have our limits. One knee jerk reaction could have consequences. Those are my feelings and they are real. Disagree all you wish but thats still how I feel.

A feeling is very different from a fact.

edit: Also, are you objecting to consequences?

I'm not discounting your feelings Catherine. I'm disagreeing with them, yes, but there is a huge difference to disagreeing and discounting. I'm saying that yes, we all have limits, but what _you_ choose to do when you reach that limit, well that's your _choice_. No one forced Prok to say the things he did. No one has forced you to say what you have said. No one has forced Coco, no one forces me, no one forces anyone. Whatever you say or do, is _your_ choice. That's what I'm talking about, ownership of your actions. And I'm not trying to say that only the people I mentioned above didn't and don't own to their actions. I am saying that personally, that's why I'm not afraid. I own my reactions, I own how I choose to behave when I reach my limit. We all do. I chose not to be a victim a long time ago and part of that for me was choosing how I behaved and how I reacted to things.

Even after getting banned, we're still talking about him. That's first rate attention-getting!

Some people don't need to be right, they just need to be noticed. (Different paragraph, not a personal attack. Just a comment on human nature.)

Buster

Yup very true and I already put several trouble makers on ignore as my way of handling the situation. I also pulled way back from posting and am making more of an effort to try to make my points as clear as I can. I would like to see the forums get to the point *where open discussions are held without any personal attacks, after all we are all adults here.

Thats all

Cat