An Observation and a Suggestion for the Mods

Swell.

I still say everyone should be congratulated on their current behavior. We don't have to agree or disagree.

I feel like I've been moving forward and I feel a lot of other people have been too.

I would not like the boards to change at this moment. Maybe we can freeze it in time.

A positive attitude can go a long long way in improving any situation.

Still waiting for you to put up examples of all the persecution you claim to be under.

Of course, if you can't -- just say so.

Just so long as you understand that some will agree with you about the state of the forums when you joined. Just as many will disagree with you about your opinion now, and say of the forums "they are better now". And just because you want to fight to see things changed to the way *you* want them, does not mean others will not fight to see things remain as they are or changed to the way *they* want them.

Because fortunatly or unfortunatly, however you happen to look at the situation, you have a lot of diverse people here. And one thing most want is to have a voice of their own, and a community area to share happy times, sad times, and just a general "hey how's it going".

I'm thankful that not a single one of us can speak for anyone other than our own selves.

You have been very whiney in the past but this is actually a pretty good post!

It does happen and it can be rough -- I know. Harassment by one or more players is also a problem as well. I have a list of three (it used to be four but he was banned) folks who are guaranteed to come out of the woodwork and give me a hard time whenever I'm trying to make a point in a thread.

I've grown quite savvy at deflecting, controlling, and mitigating such attacks but before I did they were quite painful. I'd love to see a consistent effort from moderators (and a new group of user moderators) to keep this in check.

I love this. I love it so much that I'm willing to risk my virtual-world freedom. The reason I say this is that Prokofy is among us right now posting in the forums. I assume the new policy of permanent bans including alts was written for him specifically. It's only a matter of time until his alt goes a bit too far and he's out for good. I for one am enjoying the suspense.

There are some personal attacks that are truly baseless and malicious (saying a person is like Hitler, Lenin, or Stalin). Then there are some statements that are factual but are very difficult for people to hear (like you whine a lot).

I'm not a big fan of the former and I feel that the latter should be used sparingly but to get rid of the latter? Never. That's the great thing about a forum is that I can tell someone things that I could never tell them in person both good and bad.

Here comes some of the aforementioned "former".

Actually, you are exactly like Prokofy in that you have this strange inability to modify your position. I've never heard you step back and say, "well, maybe I should examine how I'm talking to you, perhaps that would help get my message across". But you don't. Instead you dig your feet in and approach the problem doggedly from the same angle until folks stop reading your posts (I'm guilty of that).

Take it from a forum master. You have to use rational thought, humor, force, politics, kindness, bribery, honesty, apology, and anger to make a point in the forums. Otherwise you become background noise, a target, or even worse, a caricature.

~Ulrika~

I'm impressed -- you've really hit it right on the nose. I've never seen a more succinct and accuate formula for forum mastery.

I left out flattery.

~Ulrika~

/me taps the tip of his nose ruefully

I know that I can't "change the forums" or change the forum rules. But I can see a few reforms that wouldn't hurt anyone and would go a long way to helping people, AND, not the least, toward making the forums a friendlier place so that more players would feel welcome and unafraid and would want to post than currently do.

I know I can't make people do what I want them to, or make the mods or the Lindens change their minds about something just on my say-so.

On the other hand, I've never been one to just sit around and watch everything and say, well, there's nothing I can do. Or that we, the players, have no influence. We, the players, DO have an influence - here more than in other games, I think.

So there will be about a week, then I will post these proposals for forum reform. They can be rejected by many, or accepted by many, and, in either case, ignored or considered by the Lindens. There is no way to tell, really, without trying.

After that, depending on how that goes, I might put some or all of it in a proposition on the voting thing.

I'm not in favor of the banning rule. Of course I'm not in favor of Prok being banned from the game. But by the same token, say it was my worst enemy on the forums. Say it's someone who makes me grind my teeth on occasion, perhaps someone I have arrived at a rather lengthy psychoanalysis of, and someone who really does the boards no good whatsoever.

I would not want that person banned from the boards, particularly not when the rules are, as they are now, unclear and inconsistent in the first place. But I CERTAINLY would not want that person, my hypothetical worst enemy, banned from the game. There is nothing that that person does on the game which bothers me in the slightest. Chances are good I will never even run into that person on the game. Chances are good that person is happily playing their own game, and only comes here, as the rest of us do, to debate issues. Chances are good there is nothing that person does on the game that bothers ANYONE in the slightest.

So why take their game away from them? You may be willing to risk your in-world freedom, Ulrika, just as I am - but neither of us should have to. If you were the first person banned under this new rule, they would NEVER hear the end of it from me. I would write about it everywhere, not just on these forums. You think I'm noisy now, it's nothing compared to what I'd be like then. I wouldn't be happy, either, till you were reinstanted. I would just keep whining about it, lol.

As for the forum reform ideas, that does have a definite end-point. We're just not there yet. Moreover, even once the end-point is reached - when I feel I have done all I can for now - then I won't be "whining" about it so much. But I still won't be happy about it, if things don't improve, and will still make remarks to that effect where applicable.

I am very dogged about this, yes. This is probably one of the few things in the world I would be so adamant about. That's why I appear inflexible. It's not that I don't understand where people are coming from. It's just that I know bullying behavior shouldn't go on anywhere - it gets me worse than practically anything else; personal attacks of the nature that appear here shouldn't appear on any useful forum (much less the main forum for a game that intends to grow); and nobody needs to be banned from the game.
So far I've heard nothing (except perhaps the alts thing, which could be handled in other individual ways, if and when it happened) to convince me that these reforms wouldn't be beneficial to us, to the game, to the Lindens - and at the same time, pretty much harmful to no one.

When I do post these ideas, remember that I wrote them - in other words, they may not be perfectly stated. They probably could use tweaking here and there. But it would be interesting if we could get just a flat-out yes or no. I guess I could make it a poll, huh. Even though, as all polls, it would just represent, you know, US again, the ones who post here the most, it would at least be a stab at it.

I have to make a stab at it. I want to keep using these forums. I don't want to feel like I have to speak out for individuals. In fact, I plain shouldn't have to. I want every player to be able to access the forums without fear of getting "cut to shreds," like I keep hearing from other players.

The thing is, I think most people would actually agree with these basic motivations.

Thank you for your considered response, Ulrika.

coco

instead of writing new posts with old content, one could just post bookmarks to old posts that we've all read and enjoyed. like cienna keeps doing for that post you never respond to. i might try it myself to save time and money.

You know what the main difference between the fourms and SL is? In SL you have at least an 80% chance of being treated like a person and 90% chance of having a good time.

In the forums however you have a 90% chance of being insulted. You also have an 80% chance of being ganged up on when you think for yourself.

No need to reply I'm talking to the 90% of ppl who are in world, not the 10% that post.

Cat

I'd agree with this.

I have a crazy idea. Why don't we schedule some sort of in-world round table where we could all get together and talk about the forum? It might be a nice change.

~Ulrika~

I would be up for that. But it would have to be after Wednesday, I think, or maybe Tuesday.

coco

if you have this meeting, i'll make a poll:

do you give consulting authority to a commitee of forum crackpots on YOUR forum policies?

-yes
-no
-pecan pie

What just happened here? I'm going to have to come back and reread this after a night's sleep. This sounded good but I'm thiniking I'm just sleepy.

Prok does that all the time, Ulricka. He hands out 'Free Prok' T-Shirts at it and basically puts on his best victim act. I think he might even have logs of one at his blog.

Actually, the only time you ever get attacked on these forums is if you refuse to grant others the same space to differ as you expect/demand for yourself.

Oh, and just as a side note -- Cocoa still hasn't replied to this, which is pretty strange considering she swears up and down that these things exist.

Moving on is incredibly simple. You just stop focusing on the things that annoy you. It's actually the first step towards having things be the way you want them to be. Some people can't do that though, not because it's difficult but because they don't actually want to. They're too addicted to their own righteous indignation. It's like a drug. If it wasn't so highly addictive most religions on Earth would crumble into dust. Preaching is an ineffective means to achieving civil dialogue. The best way to work towards it is to lead by example. Anything else just perpetuates the conditions that cause the righteous indignation in the first place.

*agrees* good point chip

~applause~

Of course you do realise she doesn't get it, right? A pity, really.

I'm an optimist, Cienna

I think this is an awesome Idea. I wish more people would have folloed this in connection with prokofy's posts. The problem is see is that there is a group of people here who always have to be right, and anyone who dissents must "move on" and accept that they are wrong and follow Ulrika's rules of forum mastery.

I am just going to say what I have to say and remain indifferent to efforts to persuade me otherwise, just as others will remain indifferent to things I say. It remains funny to me how some people are expected to compromise and then others can simply post whatever veiled attack they wish and that is fine.

I look at it this way: did it ever dawn on anyone that Prokofy, Coco and Cotton might just be right?

I do think that pointing out to someone that they whine a lot is a personal attack and in damned bad taste. None of us are here to Judge. Frankly if we left of the behavior descriptors in all our posts, we would have a lot fewer problems. If something is abuse, report it, if its not abuse, tough it out and let it go.

I did not force anyone out of Pimushe. I did not do a lot of the things Prok accused me of. I am not unworthy of notice because I only paid, at the time, a $40 tier. I am not a sad individual in real life who will never find happiness in Second Life.

How can I say that Prok was right when he said all of those things, and a whole lot more, about me?

I am trying to move on, I rarely mention these things because it's detrimental to moving on. But if I subsribe to the ideas of these people, as you suggest are right, then I would constantly bring up those facts over and over and over again.

What would be the purpose? Moving on means moving on. It doesn't mean moving on for others while some constantly throw up the past.

Why isn't when some "individuals" agree, it is because they are like minded, but when others agree, they are part of a "mob". It invalidates anyones ideas to lump them into this "mob". It also takes away from the validity of any counter argument.

Not really. Getting banned tends to underscore that someone is wrong. Beyond all the desire to avoid reality, it remains that the value is determined by Linden Labs, not us, therefore whenever they act, you can safely conclude the judgement is sound insofar as definition.

Prokofy was wrong. Period.

Anyone who in any way supports the behavior that got Prokofy banned is, by the same definition, wrong. Period.

Continuing to complain, lobby, and yes, WHINE about this reality after the fact is, by definition, a pointless waste of time. Some folks, myself included, are sick of it. But, since those engaging in it have not yet managed to step over the line, the choices are few -- continue to let it bother you or choose to ignore it.

I recently chose to ignore it. I'm happier already.

Maybe you should try it instead of joining in on the 'mommy brigade'. I promise you, no one cares that you deem yourself fit to judge.



Oh irony. (chuckle)

Yeah, maybe Prokofy was right. Maybe Cristiano Midnight was harvesting IPS numbers for nefarious purposes. Maybe Snapzilla is little more than a ruse for a few hostile and connected players to detect and connect alt accounts. He wasn't libeling anyone, no! He was just misunderstood.



Anyone who declares with righteous, pious indignation that individuals ought to suspend judgment on any subject, particularly the actions and motivations of other people, has dishonest intentions and expectations.

It is my absolute expectation that those who read my writing, anywhere at all, will judge it. They will judge it as honest or evasive, as factual or inaccurate, as effective or clumsy, as earnest or malicious, as topical or whimsical. If my aim is to be disruptive, I will be identified, sooner or later, as a disruption. If my goal is to be helpful, I will be judged as an asset to a community.

I don't expect to live without the judgment or justice of others, nor do I allow anyone the blank check of my own suspended judgment. Don't judge, lest ye be judged?

Judge me, I'm counting on it. Not because I'm perfect, I'm not. Not because my behavior is exemplary, it is not. But because everything I have ever said, I have said with eyes open to my audience.

I agree. Six months of this crap gets real old.

It's gone beyond complaining, whining and trolling and enters the realm of grieving.

There is a hidden agenda here under the guise of self pity, and I don't buy into it for one second.