An Observation and a Suggestion for the Mods

Lynn how long have you been asking for toes? As long as I can remember now. Just an observation.

Cat

They can be in moderation, but you have to admit, they can get out of control and disruptive to a thread.

Threads can get out of control and disruptive to a thread.

Why do you keep saying "I really think you have to be there to know what I mean". I _have_ been there. Maybe not here, but being a debater, natural born and during college, puts me on the receiving end of some pretty nasty flame wars. I learned to take care of myself. I have no sympathy or empathy for those that can't. Maybe that's wrong of me, but there it is.

I _do_ think that leading by example is a good thing, I really liked your next paragraph. I think a lot of times people won't say something to someone being nasty in a post, because, well who wants it turned on them?

But I just get bugged by your attitude that we can't understand until we've been there. Well, I'll tell you Coco, I've been online since 1994. And as far as I know, you haven't been in every online arena I have been in, so it'd be pretty darned hard for you to know what I have been on the receiving end of and what I haven't. So, it hasn't been here, so what? you think this board is the only one that gets nasty to people?

Sorry, I'm cranky and just tired so this was a bit harsher than I wanted it to be.

Basic Forum Policies and Etiquette

* Private discussions – the forums are a public area for the Second Life community’s use. Individuals who have a dispute with each other have other channels of communication to discuss their differences or communicate – private messaging, IM within Second Life, or chatting within Second Life. Also, threads that are addressed to a single individual or group are inappropriate on the forums, this includes slander or "naming names" in a posts title, starting polls about a particular resident or group, etc.
* Think before you post – sometimes in the heat of a passionate discussion you may be tempted to say something that on reflection you will regret. If your words do more harm to the community than they might give you pleasure in the short term, reconsider posting.
* Flaming, Spamming, Trolling – Flaming (posting a message that is intended to incite anger or directly attack a person or persons), Spamming (multiple posts of the same topic or discussion), and Trolling (a post with an intentionally contrary opinion written with the intent of inciting or getting argumentative opinions) are strongly discouraged. If you think your post might be over-reactive, or that it might fall into one of these definitions, please reconsider posting.
* Reposting – If a moderator removes your post, do not repost it elsewhere. Do not repost threads that have been locked or deleted and do not repost content that has been edited or deleted by a moderator. Furthermore, please do not post a "why did my post get removed" post. Send any further discussion regarding post removals to [email]abuse@lindenlab.com[/email].
* Post in appropriate places, for appropriate reasons – The forums are split into separate topics. Please do not post discussions into forums that are clearly designed for other discussions.
* Advertising - Advertising is not allowed on the forums. Posts containing Spam, real-world commercial advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are expressly forbidden. Also, please do not post any affiliate or referral links, or post anything asking for a referral. Such posts will be subject to removal. This includes using the forum private message system to spam other members.

Yes and they can be reported also.

Enabran, you dirty aproned chef! (sorry couldn't resist, that does sound good *grin*)

Really?

When reporting a post a person is given a window in which to say what is wrong the post they are reporting. A note at the bottom of that window reads:

"Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts."

I believe if a group of ppl is wishing to derail a thread that IMO is "problematic, and rude" depending on the post its self it could in fact vioate the community standars or the fourm rules.

Cat

SL forums and a pepsi can

Two ppl are sitting in the park, one is drinking a pepsi but its nearly gone. Jack decides to get up and get a fresh pepsi from the vendor in the park. Jill says; “hey why you getting a new pepsi you have 2 sips left of this one?” Jack replies; “I’m done with it I want a new one.” To which Jill says; “But there is at least a sip or two left, just come finish it.” Jacks replied; “Listen to me I don’t want it its flat I just want a new one.” A couple Tom and Dick overhear the conversation and decide to jump in. Tom says; “Say Jack that’s a waste you should finish that pepsi.” Jack repies; “Listen Tom I am sure you have the best of intentions in mind but I really would rather just get myself a new one, that one is flat as I told Jill already. Well Dick now has something to say about this matter and he lets Jack have it; “Jack what is wrong with you are you too stupid to hear us, drink the rest of that pepsi,” Jill chimes in “Jack your wasting that and its bad for the environment, shame on you!” Jack replies; “Please listen to me I don’t want it its flat and now its also warm, why can’t I just go get a new one?” This goes on and on for the next hour….

Suddenly as if out of no where Harry walks up….hears the argument ….picks up the can of pepsi tosses it in the trash and continues on his merry way.

Jack goes and buys a new pepsi.
------

I hope you all understood this.

Cat

It sounds as though you want a very strict "on-topic" rule. Having observed such rules in action, they have never impressed me. Firstly, they require significantly more moderator effort, primarily because in addition to content and behavior, context and intent must also be policed. That's not a small job, and in order to be fair, it has to be uniformly applied across all threads.

Also, I think it's worth mentioning that even you yourself, coco, have a hard time staying on topic at times, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Although the original subject of the thread was moderation suggestions, you've taken several hundred words to soapbox on the subjects of a particular banned user, as well as Catherine Cotton, and other sundry topics only tenuously related to the original topic. A strict on-topic rule would forbid this sort of thing, keeping discussion in a very tight straightjacket.

You seem confused as to what ultimately closes a thread. A healthy thread is not closed because someone jumps in with a humorous image or a food metaphor. A rash of humorous or tangential posts in an already abusive, unhealthy thread, however, is symptomatic of that thread's already-started downward spiral. I see this sort of thing all the time on other boards. Regardless of image posting or other levity, such a thread is going to be snapped shut sooner or later.

Couple of things:

1. I love the pictures. I love Pandastrong's pictures. That is, I love the pictures when they are cute and don't make fun of another player. Usually his pictures fit that bill. Generally they are wonderful.

What I don't love is if pictures cause a thread to be closed, as people have mentioned.

I think I have made that ABUNDANTLY clear in the course of this thread.

So maybe pictures ought not to cause a thread to be closed in the first place.

2. I am totally aware that the Lindens can do whatever they want. I am completely aware this is a private company (or whatever the appropriate word is, if "private" isn't exactly correct) and we are all guests at their dinner table.

As far as I'm concerned, some of the guests are throwing pie at the other guests, and making fun of them unfairly, too. In fact, I notice that some of the guests are cheering cause one of the guests just got tossed out. Now they are eyeing other guests and figuring they don't belong at the party, either.

In fact, they are so sure of their guaranteed seat at the table, they even cheer on the host when he says the next one to get tossed out of the table can never appear in any other room of the house again, not even the actual playground, where 90% of the players spend their time playing, rather than talking at the dinner table.

I've noticed that sometimes some of those people come in off the playground, take a seat at the table, say something, get the same pie and laughter treatment, and leave - never to return.

Me, I want them there. All of them. As many of them as want to be there. And I don't want a ONE of them to get pie in his face. Laughing at people - you know, that's really lame, guys. Everyone has a certain level of innate dignity, and what goes on in these forums isn't gentle or well-meant teasing as often as it is an affront to an individual's dignity. When you affront their dignity, you affront mine.

Meanwhile, the host apparently has no clue that all this is going on at his dinner table. Probably because he doesn't have time to pay that much attention.

3. I have no intention of dropping any of this. I have seen - and still see today - too many things going on in these forums that fly in the face of human decency, in addition to being bad for the forums, bad for the game, and bad for individual players who find themselves on the other end of that flying pie.

As a matter of fact, I have only just begun with this. If you really believe that I don't have a right to bring these things up and press for improvement, then you might as well get the heck off all those suggestion threads, and stop voting in the voting section. Cause apparently you think a done deed by the Lindens is done forevermore, regardless of customer reception.

4. It is indeed possible that yes, Lynn and others have been on the receiving end of being flamed by dozens of people at once in an insulting and criminally degrading fashion. And that you have simply reacted to it in a different way than I have, with different coping mechanisms.

That's fine and I'm glad you pointed that out to me, Lynn. I'll revise my way of presenting that point in future to reflect that. This, however, will still be my own way of coping, and it is perfectly valid; and in any case, needs to be done.

coco

P.S. "You seem confused as to what ultimately closes a thread. A healthy thread is not closed because someone jumps in with a humorous image or a food metaphor."

I was told it was. Several times. In this thread, too. Apparently others are confused, too. I consider this a healthy thread, by the way - along with various others that WERE closed.

Well Coco, it seems you have been heard, they haven't closed this thread in spite of pictures and recipes and references to books.

As for no. 1, since you are restating it, I must restate my stand:

I want that rule to stay. I am very much afraid that untying forum behavior from SL would result in renewed attacks from alts. I do not want this rule to change.

As for 3. I think that would be asking a lot of the mod's time. In this thread you posted the following:



This has nothing to do with the topic on hand. I'm just using this as an example. Should the mod look at this and give you a warning? If they gave a warning to someone for something else i.e a picture and not give you a warning for going off topic, then someone would be in an uproar.

I'm just saying that this is not as easily enforced and while it might not be totally fair, I can understand why a moderator would prefer to close a thread rather than wade through all the details of each thread. Add to the fact that some people want disciplinary action without having anyone file an AR and I see the Mod having an extremely difficult job.

I understand your intentions, at least I think I do, and I think you mean well. But please understand I have my concerns as well.

I'm wondering what prevented Jack from doing at the start of the story what Harry did at the end. All Jack needed to do was toss the can and buy the new Pepsi.

Did Jack publically announce his intentions from the park soapbox used by the local political activists, bible thumpers, street musicians, and panhandlers? If so, then all the feedback shouldn't be particularly unexpected.

The forums are not akin to a quiet park bench where private conversation between Jack and Jill, or personal musings about soda purchases are interupted by any stray passer-by. They are a stage from which people speak through a bullhorn to a crowd of gatherers.

So. You love the pictures, but only if the pictures don't cause the thread to be closed. So it's okay to post pictures sometimes, but it's not okay to post pictures other times. People should be kicked out of a thread/warned for posting pictures in a thread, but only if those pictures get the thread closed. How would the forum rule regarding this read, then?


X. (iv) IMAGE POSTING

Posting images in a thread is sometimes acceptable, except when it is not acceptable. Images of a humorous nature shall not be tolerated, except such times when such images shall be tolerated, as determined by the moderator. Individuals posting images to a thread will receive a formal warning for their actions, except such times when they will not receive a formal warning.

I think that's supposed to say Katja, not Lynn in the above paragraph. I read Lynn's and didn't see anything referring to what you're answering, but rather found it in my post directly below Lynn's.

As such, maybe wrongly, so let me know, I'll address it.

Nowhere did I say that your way of coping is not valid. What I was saying is your assumption that you and a few others are the only ones that have ever been flamed, have ever been called nasty things was offensive and insulting. It _does_ make you look like you're attempting to be a martyr here. My point was nuh uh, probably anyone that has been on the internet for over a decade has been flamed horribly at some point. Hell, even five years of being an active member of internet society is long enough.

I'm sorry that you have never had it happen to you before. Well not really sorry, but I'm sorry that because it didn't happen to you before you feel that this place is the oddity on the internet. It's not. Maybe you never noticed the guests leaving the table before on previous forums because you were one of the favored guests? Happens every internet forum I've ever been in, including the first four months of TSO. I didn't post on TSO, why? because one, I was more interested in the game during those four months, and two, people delighted in condescendingly telling people they were stupid while skating around the TOS to do so. So, maybe SL forums are a bit more out in the open with their nastiness, but it's there, everywhere, every forum. Just some are a bit more hidden. And when you're at the favored chair, it's a hell of a lot harder to see.

What I've been trying to tell you for a few days now (and maybe I'm just finally getting the right words) is that your coping mechanisms, your wish to reform the forums, are FINE. Your method to get it done, not so good, it's actually HURTING your wishes. And this is coming from someone who is not a member of the "FIC" or one of the ones that hated Prok, or celebrated his ban. In fact, I tend to be ignored a lot on forums *shrugs*. So be it. But take my opinion or leave it, but your tactics and methods are hurting you and your forum reform cause.

Coco,

This kind of hyperbole serves absolutely no purpose. Lay it on the line and stop beating around the bush with lame rhetoric. Do you think the "mob" wants you gone? Catherine? Who? Also, just who is this mob who has set their sights on getting rid of someone, and how is it that you can speak to their desires and motivations like a telephone psychic? You make these vague assertions all the time - so honestly, either put up or shut up about it.

Lately, Catherine and I have argued a lot - I certainly don't want Catherine gone from the forums, I just want her hypocrisy to stop, but that is an ongoing thing and isn't going to change so I just put her on ignore permanently. You drive me batty sometimes but I would not want you gone either. I know there are people that I irritate the hell out of too - are they gunning for my suspension, or is it just the "different thinkers" that you like to wrap yourself in the flag of? As I said before, Prokofy's banning from the forums, while certainly a nice reprieve, is not something I wanted. I can't say that I am sorry to see him go though, that would be disingenuous of me.

All this fear mongering and innuendo is a part of the problem, Cocoanut, and you are the single biggest purveyor of it. You are going down the same path Prokofy did. You make excellent points that I often agree with, but it is being buried under more and more hyperbole and volume of words just to hear yourself talk, to the point of becoming white noise. That is a shame.

The FIC is a state of mind - you are as feted as you want to be. Also, you aren't ignored - your posts are actually some of my favorites. I need to get into the habit of posting when I agree with someone - sometimes I suppose it just feels lame to post "I agree with you!".

Oh, I know the whole feted thing, note the quotations *grin*....


Thanks for the compliment Cris. And yeah, it does feel stupid to always post "I agree! woot woot!".

Oh, and cause I've probably never said it before, your posts are well thought out and articulate and snapzilla rocks. (just returning compliments here, of things that it's too weird to just come out in some random thread and say WHOA, CRIS, YOUR POSTS ROOOCK!).

*is getting goofy from lack of sleep*

You're getting there, Cris. Remember what I've got waiting for you when you do. (grin)

The poster who pegged it best was Lynn Lippman here, especially the following:



For those watching/paying attention, how long before we hear 'I'm going to mat on this one.' (chuckle)

Reiterating the best advice (that will, I am sure, remain untaken):



For the rest of ya, understand that the 'cause' dies without dissent to it. And a person can only go so far insert unrelated whines into your threads without dissent, too. If you really want to shut down the cheese-n-whine fest, do what it takes to ignore the instigator(s).

Luckily, Pandastrong is never afraid of lameness!

I just wanted to remind everyone to stay on topic and refrain from making your debates personal.