An Observation and a Suggestion for the Mods

How would you know what people have been through? If you won't read through the history of the forums (which also includes a history of in-world events), how would you even begin to know who has and who has not been on the other end of an unpopular idea, situation, experience, etc.?

I know that, Lynn, and I will not be blinded some day by the heat and light or whatever.

I don't know why this notion is so often lost on people, but I speak of humane treatment of everyone.

I don't need to know any more of the history. I already know enough of Catherine, and I already know enough of the history. And even if I knew NOTHING - which WAS the case when I first came onto these forums and saw the treatment of her going on then - it would CHANGE nothing. When I got on back then, the treatment of her was appalling - period, and totally regardless of any history.

It's not a matter of educating me as to why a person deserves poor treatment from others on these forums. (After all, you'd have to educate me as to why I deserved it, and apparently from the get-go, and you'd have a rather hard sell there.) In fact, the more educated I get about the person in question, the less acceptable that treatment appears.

That anyone finds this humorous is irrelevant to me.

But we digress from the subject of the thread, which I figure is about finished up anyhow.

coco

P.S. Pendari - "I truly wish - that all of you could spend..."

Coco,
I know you tend to post normal posts. Or you _used_ to. I used to thoroughly enjoy reading your posts when I first got here in April. Up until the last two weeks actually. Even after you got attacked and accused of being an alt.

The last two weeks have seen more and more reactionary behavior. That's why I began posting. I miss the old coco posts. I'm not trying to be mean in my posts to you, I am just trying to oh I don't know. Point out that in your crusade you've become overreactionary, which I can tell you, actually hurts your cause and causes people to not listen to you anymore.

And I _have_ been viciously attacked on forums before and had 20 people being nasty nasty nasty beeatches to me. I've also been a very valued member of some forum communities and online communities. The difference is, I don't go into any forum experience _expecting_ to be anything other than another voice out there.

And here comes a brutally honest question from me to you that I've actually been wondering.

Do you think _part_ of your overreaction is the fact that you feel in the past that you've been a favored member of previous forums, previous games? And that since you were not able to automatically move into that on these forums, it's actually causing you to react more than you would? This isn't meant offensively, just that you bring it up a lot, and I mean a lot, that you were a valuable member of other forum communities, that you bring a lot to the board, and that it's this forum's loss that they don't see that (this last part is more of the impression I get from your words, not an actual statement on your part).

I'm really trying to understand here, I do feel it's still on topic to ask this, as the motivation behind your wanting forum reform is tied into your previous forum experience as well as your overreacting and merely reacting to these forums. Also, why is it that you feel that the forum rules you have seen on prior forums will work on this forum? Isn't every community different? Whether healthy or unhealthy, they're all different. Wouldn't it be better to try to come up with brand new solutions to move these forums in a different manner? This all ties into your professed campaign to change forums. I want to know more.

And btw, you all can call me Kat. It's easier to type and everyone else does

And my point was many that you include in that "all" have spent...

Several things, Kat, as to why my posts have changed:

1. Simple passage of time and getting tired.
2. A drastic racheting up of the stakes involved.
3. A change in the forums slightly for the worse since Prok was banned.
4. An increase in the issue of free speech (such as it is) on the forums, as well as who gets to practice it and who doesn't.

"Do you think _part_ of your overreaction is the fact that you feel in the past that you've been a favored member of previous forums, previous games? And that since you were not able to automatically move into that on these forums, it's actually causing you to react more than you would? This isn't meant offensively, just that you bring it up a lot, and I mean a lot, that you were a valuable member of other forum communities, that you bring a lot to the board, and that it's this forum's loss that they don't see that (this last part is more of the impression I get from your words, not an actual statement on your part)."

I would say that has something to do with it, but not in the sense that I expected instant entree. I think I reacted more than I normally would have mainly because it was my friend getting tarred and feathered - I think that is fairly normal, and did account for a lot of my fervor and (occasionally) bias. However, I did see it happening to other people back then, and I hated it in all cases. When it reached the point of the shunning, I don't think anyone COULD overreact to that. But even before that point, the problem on the boards was apparent to me - and still is - regardless of whether it's my friend or someone I don't know.

My favored status on other forums, as well as my favored status in the real world, become germaine mainly when my reputation is wrecked and character smeared here. So that's why you hear a lot about that from me. Every day on these forums is another mischaracterization, or several, and they are always wretched.

It is this forum's loss. But the more important point is, this forum loses MANY people that way! Just less dramatically so. Not just the ones we have seen the forum lose - or try to lose - but also bunches of others for whom it just isn't worth it to try to talk here.

"Also, why is it that you feel that the forum rules you have seen on prior forums will work on this forum? Isn't every community different? Whether healthy or unhealthy, they're all different. Wouldn't it be better to try to come up with brand new solutions to move these forums in a different manner? This all ties into your professed campaign to change forums. I want to know more."

Well, some rules I have seen tried and NOT work on other forums. For instance, the rule that no one can "start rumors" that someone mentioned another game recently instituted. That was a bad rule when we had it on TSO, and when it was junked, everyone was lots better off and no harm whatsoever was done.

Ditto the rule about "banned from the forums = banned from the game." When that rule was junked, the forums were a much better place to be in.

Yes, every community is different, and yes, these forums are unhealthier than any I've ever seen that I cared to be involved with. And since they are THE official forums for SL, that's important. If this were just somebody else's very popular web site, I wouldn't care at all. But many people do care to be involved in this one, as there is not another official one to choose from. And if it's unhealthy, it doesn't have to stay that way.

I don't think there are any brand new solutions, or at least, I can't think of any. As personal attacks seem to be the main problem, I focus on that. Given the ridiculous wording of the TOS ("go ahead and say troll and liar, but know that we strongly discourage it", it's also clear to see how this problem came to be. Hence: Excise that phrase from the TOS. Start enforcing the personal attack part of the TOS more consistantly.

The other part - getting rid of that banning rule - well, I've talked about my reasoning for that a lot elsewhere.

To be honest, I think the problem with this forum is people really don't want a stricter ruleset for personal attacks. I've grown to think about this resistance more and more lately, and of the reasons why people feel that way. And - again, to be totally honest - I think it's because people have too much fun cleverly one-upping each other in the belittlement of others. I think everyone can have just as much clever fun without it being at some individual's expense.

coco

P.S. Pendari, I know what you're saying, and I agree. Even then, though, there is still the matter of degree.

<reads and does the smart thing>

Okay, this does nothing for forum reforms.. in fact the only thing it does is prove why we need them so badly.

It's not up to the Lindens to decide how WE behave, that's our decision and ours alone, otherwise, I'd be out of here fast. In this thread alone, I've seen more attempts at the name calling, the pointing of fingers and trying to convince others who don't want to be convinced going on than anywhere in my life save one other place.. and they were designed for flamers.

What I'd love to know is WHY do we keep doing this? Why can't we just walk away from the insults (real, imagined, doesn't matter) and not respond in kind? Some of this would actually be dealt with by simply ignoring them and responding only to constructive posts in an equally constructive manner. But I'm seeing a devolution to arguments and such that get to a waaaay too personal level, time after time. So, WHY?

I don't care who has done what in the past, it doesn't effect my ingame play. I disagree with loads of people, but if I don't have anything nice to say or a way to say it in a constructive manner I'm going to follow my own suggestion and keep my mouth closed and my hands off the keyboard.

Lindens have the right to lock threads, but we have the right not to post in them, specially if we are offended by them.

I didn't want to quote yours again coco and then add my very long one to it, thereby creating another whole page

Good points. However, I do think that some of the cases you are defending, if you went back and looked, you'd find that maybe there was some provocation there. I mean, that's the good thing about history, it makes understanding why certain parties clash more than others, or for a more specific example, since we're discoursing...if I was brand new, you would appear hysterical, full of yourself due to prior gaming/forum experience and hypocritical. If I read history though, I would be able to know why you were upset. I think this is the point people make when they're saying go read the history.

Maybe the name calling does get too vicious. But maybe, sometimes, what you're seeing is the culmulative effect of a couple years worth of something else. Until you at least scan history, you don't know. It doesn't _excuse_ the name calling, but does give a perspective. As I said, a brand new person coming into these forums would get a very different picture of you than one you wanted to give.

Kat

To be perfectly honest I think most of the negative feelings in the forums are because ppl are too busy looking back than looking forward. No one should have to worry that a year from now their statements today will be somehow formulated into an argument and used against any poster to suit the second posters needs or agenda.

History of the forums? Some ppl have always stood for one thing and some have always stood for another. Some ppl see something that will adversely affect the longevity of SL and they speak up. Some ppl don't.

I know the history far too well by now and I can safely say it has hindered the "metaverse" as I understand the metaverse to be.

There is a difference between knowing the history, and derailing a thread with a post that has no bearing on that thread what so ever.

Nope I am no angel push me hard enough and my fangs and claws come out. Consider me the mama bear who feels her cub is in danger. That is absolutely true.

I used to view these forums with optimistic intention, but as the weeks, months and now years pass my views now sway to a negative light. Reading the history, I think others would also view much of what has been said in a negative light as well.

I realized this week that there are those in these forums who just cannot let go of anything ever. No not just one person. Several ppl with the same negative attitude. I pity them, and shall ignore them from now on. We have rehashed every word I have ever said, I am ashamed of the posters who continue on with it as it hinders these forums from moving forward. More so its like a heavy hand that openly says “It’s our way or no way, you have no opinion unless it’s our opinion” That is laughable at best.

I state my opinions then anyone who reads the forums is subjected to reading little digs, insults, innuendos from threads weeks, months or years, past that have no bearing on the topic at hand. Someone tell me please how this is positive for these forums because I don't see it. Or worse new insults.

My views have not changed on things that I have spoken out about and after 2 years of this constant belittling, badgering, and pressure to change them. They still remain. No mob mentality? No collective? Forum history shows me that not only does one exist but they are heavy handed and cruel. I am not however saying they are organized and have a clear agenda that they all have meeting about.

How would you feel if you said for example "the sky is blue" and 5 ppl said "the sky is green" you state why the sky is in blue 30 different ways. These same ppl then say but 8 months ago you said; "an elephant is gray" so your wrong! So you go onto explain why you think the elephant is in fact grey. Then those ppl bring up that you once said your tired and leaving so why don't you do them a favor and just leave. You then say again but if I leave, the sky will still be blue. Well now thats not good so now they have to say your "mentaly ill" . When that doesn’t work they ask you to explain again why the sky is blue because they don’t “understand” and they need you to explain it again. Ah but what you don’t know is no explination is ever good enough. You put them on ignore, and they badger you in IM and PM they badger you openly at town halls, they have their alts and buddies do the same. They know they are on ignore yet they want to know why you won’t answer them…..and it goes on and on and on for years.

Yes I know the history at least I know how I view it and again we all have our opinions badgering someone with "historical" non facts unrealated to the topic is not going to get the person to see the sky as green. If anything it will blind them to seeing the sky as anything but blue.

I do wish all those who built this negative history could just look at it from the other side. Push anyone hard enough and you will see their ugly side. Including you.

I do not apologize for my opinion. I will continue to speak my opinion but I will not speak it in fear of what someone might bring up. That would mean that I was ashamed of my posts and I'm not. If a person just tried to read my posts at face value without some paranoid, reading between the lines, hidden agenda that has not existed then they would see that my words are just an opinion.

There is no excuse in this world for calling anyone a “cold hearted whore or mentally ill or any number of things I have been called in the past 2 years. Over an opinion. If you think there is ANY justification for that kind of treatment of ANYONE who posts their opinion in these forums; Then I think there is something seriously wrong with you.

I am however ashamed of being pushed over the edge at times but we all have our limits and I can live with that.

The history of these forums is a disgrace and we would all be better off worrying about the future and where it takes us.

If we never can see past the end of our nose this world we all love will never move past these stagnant arguments. A forums is a discussion not a pissing contest. Sometimes there are no winners and losers, and that should be ok too.

Live in the past if you wish, but I won't.

As for the book Snowcrash all the critics agreed the ending sucked. Is it possible to consider creating our own Metaverse?

This post is now part of the history of these forums.

A man rising in the world is not concerned with history; he is too busy making it. But a citizen with a fixed place in the community wants to acquire a glorious past just as he acquires antique furniture. By that past he is reassured of his present importance; in it he finds strength to face the dangers that lie in front of him.
Malcolm Cowley

"Those who do not learn from history are damned to repeat it." (unknown)

Cat

Exactly. It doesn't excuse it, but it does give it perspective.

And I know there is some provocation there. I do understand it. There are good reasons why people react to things as they do, both on a logical and on an emotional level, and the emotional level is important.

But that is less relevant. I know, it drives people crazy when I say that, but it is. What one person does or says is always less relevant than what fifty people do in retaliation. And less damaging, by far.

As for people getting a very different picture of me than the one I would have liked to give, heck, I know that! I knew that when I began! I know that my whole game is largely ruined because of all this. And that's a pretty huge price to pay. But I don't expect it to stay that way FOREVER, so I play on.

Another thing, as long as I'm on the subject about how my own life goes for me here. Every day, I consciously remind myself that tomorrow, I may not have a game to play, and my work and my year's fee would be down the tubes. And every day, I make the decision again that the risk is worth it. I know that if I got banned from the forums, I would be banned from the game. That is worse than has ever happened to anyone prior.

Now, me getting banned from here doesn't seem very likely to me at all, or anyone else getting banned, either, but on the other hand, I know there are a number of people who would like to see that happen. So it's kind of nerve-wracking. Every day, I have to remind myself that being able to present my views is more important than being able to play a game, much as I love the game, and go forward from there. That's an even worse catch-22 than just wrecking my rep. But, you know, things change, and all this, too, will pass.

coco

P.S. I agree with everything Catherine has just said.

So, in a nutshell, It's ok for Catherine to bring up the past to try and reinforce her assertions that she has been treated badly for two years, however, if anyone else brings up thge past, including threads started by Catherine to specifically target individuals or groups, it's not ok.

Got it.

It would help to look at the bigger picture, Nolan.

coco

P.S. Besides, she doesn't bring it up out of nowhere. She brings it up mainly when it starts happening again.

Gee Nolan. That about sums it up in a, *ahem* nutshell.

Oh! But wait! I thought you were through with the general forums? Several times.

Because you were so afraid of "losing your game".

You know, it would be a lot easier to deal with you Coco, if you weren't so blatently disingenuous most of the time. We won't even go into the massive hypocrisy displayed via "Coco's rules".

Suffice it to say, if you are Coco's buddy, you get to say whatever you like, and it will be passed of as "brilliant" social commentary - but don't you dare respond to that "commentary", that would be bad. People are supposed to be able to address and accuse the public here, without being questioned, even if their proposals and accusations involve many people.

Coco, you don't make the rules here. LL does. Get it through your head.

For the 100th time, your issue is not with other forum users, it's with LL. Please hotline them, call them, email them, make feature suggestions, start proposals, but for Pete's sake - stop trying to modify people's behaviors based on your own personal wants. It hasn't worked, it isn't working, and it's not going to.

As a matter of fact, you just make it worse, every time you harp on the same thing, day in, day out.

Please stop projecting your voluntary myopia onto me.

Hardly. She didn't bring it up, you did. Specifically, when it looked like people might actually be calming down and moving on with life, you made a point of running around like a circus clown, flapping your arms wildly and yelping like a kicked puppy, "Wait, wait! We need to talk about how big a victim I am!"

So ok, I challenged you to prove it . You refuse to even go there.... we all know why -- because none of the things you swear have been uttered to you ever were.

Funny part is, you and Prok think you're fooling anyone. Yes, I said Prok. You see, despite it all, Cocoanut, you are not the problem. Prokovy using you to further her agenda and you being too niave or caught up in your own sense of self-importance is... I often wonder if you even know how well you're being played. Sad, really, to think any one person could possibly be that gullable.

But admittedly not as sad as Prok handing out 'free prok' t-shirts at some supposedly neutral discussion on communities in virtual environments. (chuckle)

I would be honored to call Coco my friend. She stands for the right to speak ones opinion without fear. I admire that.

Cat

Yay! My namesake! Gotta admire a guy that was blowing away 23 year olds away when he was 42!

Actually, she stands for lobbying Prok back onto the forums. Nothing more. The rest is merely a convenient tool to try and accomplish it. You take any other stance than one that fits the M.O. and see how fast that changes.

You really shouldn't be so quick to support people, Cat. You'll wind up with much less egg on your face when they're revealed to be less than what you think.

I agree with you 100% Cienna!

HUGZ!



Two Godiva chocolates for you!

I feel more "right" already!

I disagree. I think she is standing up for everyone's rights. As for egg on my face, im not concerned with that.

Cat

If she were standing up for everyone's rights, she would be involved in a number of threads where the things she claims to be against are happening. Instead, she is only in the ones where known "friends of the FIC" or "enemies of Prok" are involved.

But ok, if you can't see the forest for the trees, that's just as valid a choice as any other. Enjoy it. (shrug)

Soooooooo off-topic!

Huggloozies!

I'd just like to point out that ALL of the contentious blathering of the past three or four days stemmed from a single comment. One. Singular. Uno. That comment was perhaps over the line and uncalled for, but four solid days of ranting about it is completely, unbelievably, astoundingly insane.

The forums don't change because people take it upon themselves to rant about them endlessly for days on end. As a matter of fact, that makes the forums worse by an order of magnitude. For the love of god or your deity of choice, let it go already! If the forums are making you feel in such a state that you have to post 200 times about it in two days, go take a bloody walk or something. Go to the zoo and pet something furry. Go buy yourself an icecream cone. Go read a book. Do anything else! At this point, in my best attempt at objective observation, those ranting for a cure are a hundred times worse than the supposed disease.

My mother taught me something when I was in kindergarten... It's a cliche because it is infinitely wise. It goes, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." We're all supposed to be adults here, but it seems some people have trouble grasping the simple truth of a nursery rhyme. If you can't get past a singular comment that hurt your feelings within the span of a couple of hours, the problem lies squarely with you, not with the forums.

Now excuse me while I go take my meds

Obviously.