back away form the crack pipe dude.
I love how the only reasonable opinion here is met with this post.
Edit: No u
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What are the free speech limits on an offensive 9/11 build? |
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Ryen Jade
This is a takeover!
![]() Join date: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,329
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06-11-2005 13:50
back away form the crack pipe dude. I love how the only reasonable opinion here is met with this post. Edit: No u _____________________
Between you, Ryen the twerp and Ardith, there's little to change my opinion here.. rather you have reinforced it each in your own ways IM A TWERP, IM A TWERP! ![]() Whats a twerp? ![]() |
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
![]() Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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06-11-2005 14:04
No, it wasn't built for that purpose. He already said he put it up there because he thought it was funny. You and several others in this thread think that the only possible reason to do this is to be offensive, but that's a flawed assumption. You are thinking, "Well, if I did something like this, it could only be to offend," and because of this, you think everybody else could only possibly be motivated by the same thinking. It isn't so. As I understand it from being acquainted with Louis personally, and from what he has said here, it seems to me he got a chuckle out of the picture and decided to put it up for the amusement of W-hat. You are assuming some kind of specific thought process, but the evidence isn't there to support it. I read what he claimed was the intent of the build. Even if that's true and it was supposed to be satire about the overreaction of insane patriotism that followed 9/11, it lacks any context to convey that message. There are no flags, no SUV's with ribbons, no "God bless the USA" There's only a burning plane and burning bodies and a meaningless pun. It also doesn't change my point about your comparison to people being offended by gays. Gays don't become gay for purposes of ridicule. _____________________
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Louis Neutra
Louisgod
![]() Join date: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 35
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06-11-2005 14:11
I read what he claimed was the intent of the build. Even if that's true and it was supposed to be satire about the overreaction of insane patriotism that followed 9/11, it lacks any context to convey that message. There are no flags, no SUV's with ribbons, no "God bless the USA" There's only a burning plane and burning bodies and a meaningless pun. Hahahaha, do you honestly expect me to put some kind of sign next to the tower that reads "THIS BUILDING IS SUPPOSED TO BE A SATIRE ABOUT THE OVERREACTION OF INSANE PATRIOTISM THAT FOLLOWED 911"? edit: ok I did. _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
![]() Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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06-11-2005 14:38
Hahahaha, do you honestly expect me to put some kind of sign next to the tower that reads "THIS BUILDING IS SUPPOSED TO BE A SATIRE ABOUT THE OVERREACTION OF INSANE PATRIOTISM THAT FOLLOWED 911"? No, I'm saying either your explanation was complete bullshit or you're thorougly inept at conveying the statement you claimed to be trying to make. My guess is that you simply find the act of being completely offensive to be funny without trying to convey any message at all. "haha look how offensive I am!" That's just sad dude. _____________________
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wizzie Baldwin
Registered User
![]() Join date: 23 May 2004
Posts: 52
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Am i gonna get flamed for this.
06-11-2005 14:43
Hi,
(my isp mangles my spelling) I've played this game for about a year. I play maybe 4 to 5 days per month. I don't have internet access where I live, so I play when I am at the office I used for my company. When I first joined SL I was intriguied by the notion that you could pretty much make up your world here. Do what you wanted to do. I remember a vision from the original Star Wars where in the course of a few minutes, the ugly alien sort got his arm chopped off by a light saber and another fellow bit the dust from a laser gun with the only response being the toss of a coin and the words to the proprieter "Sorry about the mess." Now that's a fantasy world. How many people back then were thinking "were are the police, or the anti-terrorist groups?" When I first started playing this game I met someone who had this push gun. And before i knew it i was lying face down in another sim. Whew! I got up and I was adamant, I was insensed and had a mission ........ "I got to get me one of these!" The war was on... bumper avatars. So I found a gadget, and I used it occasionaly when I used to hang at the old welcome area by the shooting gallery. Sometimes I got harrassed by some dumb resident trying to be cute. I'd usually let something like that go a couple of times but if the person was persistent i'd break out the gadget and blow them into next week. Yay that was fun. Kind of like the old west where you just blew someone away for looking at you funny. They got the message. Personally, I don't take anything seriously in this game. NOT ONE THING because it is what it is a non reality second life. There's a big difference between playful bantering and out and out harrassment. Harrassment would be someone continually messing with you hour and hour day after day in world. That should not be tolerated, but the occassional person having fun with a push gun shooting spree should not get someone so upset. Just like someone putting up a build that seems inappropriate. Gee, so many people getting upset over stuff that they should just never bother with. So what! THIS IS A GAME and I say quit bringing your stinking RL issues, fears, politically correct adgendas into the game and I also say stop trying to put burdens on those of us who do not take SL with a life or death intensity. The real world is full of busybodies. They consistently want to burden all of us with nitpicking rules and regulations. They should stay out of here. My character is an avitar. It can't die, I can't be permantly disfigured, and nothing can so seriously affect me that it would want to make me curl up and cry. So what! If someone puts up something offensive. People choose to be offended. I could put up a simple Nazi Swastika on my land. I don't put up a caption, but MY thinking is "remember what not to endorse". What will happen? For certain some will take offense and call me a Hitler follower, some will think that I am for the 6 million Jews that were exterminated. Now how does that compare to the measly 3000 of 9/11? It depends upon what you value a human life to be. I believe that one single person who is unjustly killed is as important as a million. I could call someone in real life a Nigger and that would bring all sorts of calamity down on me. But, go to any hood and stand on the corner, in twenty minutes you will hear the word Nigger about 50 times. Yes that's correct. 10 or so black people standing round the hood in NYC, or North Fargo, or LA are calling themselves Niggers. Hypocrytes. But kill the Whitey that does that. It's the context in which the message recieved. And only the receiver has the responsibility to be offeded. THERE IS NO ONE ON THIS PLANET that can offend me if I CHOOSE NOT to be offended. SL, if it becomes a mirror image of America, will become just as oppresive as America has recently become. What? Did I say opressive? Not America... Coming soon to your computer SL version 3.5 the politically sanitized and corrected version sponsored by the Federal Governemnt. How can sane person say that we still live in the free-est country? Freedom? This is the issue of this whole thread. This is what it's all about folks! FREEDOM! What is freedom? Freedom to stop everyone you disagree with? What happens when others disagree with you? We, who live in this country live in a coutnry: -that incarcerates more people per capita than any other country in the world now. (what's wrong with this picture. How can we possibliy be that free if we incarcerate the most amount of people per capita? Why are people incarcerated? Becuase something is illegal. And as scary as this sounds, 10% are there because of prosecutorial misconduct (doctored evidence, bad forensics, etc) How does that equate to freedom? Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Hapiness?) -that censors its television becuase its citizens are to lame to take the responsibilty to do that for themselves (i've been all over this world. A free country DOES not censor the content of radio and television - they leave that up to the citizens to change the channel) -that has made illegal almost every substance known to man that makes a physical body feel good (A free country will make recommendations as to what they consider harmful. Making drugs illegal only brings in a huge criminal element that entices people to break the law to make lots of moeny. It saps tax dollars for a war that will never be won, and it incarerates many who should not be. Personally I did drugs long ago. Lots of them. I don't do them anymore. I don't think that anyone has the right to tell me what I can and can not put in my body. That's telling me that someone another person has elevated themselves above me to say that they have more importance and a right to control me when they don't have any more right to be on this planet than I do. And I never gave them permission to exercise that control. I don't, like most people in this country need or want a Federal Babysitter. If you are going to ban drugs then alcohol and tobacco must be banned also.) -that has more things that are illegal or politically incorrect than almost any other non dictatorship in the world. -that has so many rules and regulations that most doctors are afraid to prescribe pain medication stronger than asprin for fear of the "drug" retaliation. -that will arrest its citizens if they even think they might be a terrorist and detain them without due process Think of the number of laws that were in existence when this country was founded. Then how many in the 1800's as compared to now. Next we'll be seeing an army of in world SL Lawers starting in world lawsuits. Our current America is less free than it has ever been and it's filled with busybodies that continually make it worse. Each time you take a freedom away it becomes that much easier to take another. I'd like to have an llPushObjectOffWorld function. Just for fun. Then I could go around and push, the people who are too busy complaining about there feelings being hurt and blah blah blah , off world for awhile so the rest of us can just have fun and be free. Hate I know you will. But that is just my opinion. Nothing personal towards anyone. Just try to remember this ... is ... a ... game ... have fun roll with the punches or the pushes or the tasteless art or the things that inflame you. Freedom means just that. To be able to shout at the shout at the top of your lungs something that is completey opposed by some one else. Want to know the truth? Truth is I love Jesus. The fact the Christianity is banned here is indicitive to America at large. America, a country founded by "Christians with Christian beliefs" has sold out to the minority of whiners that came here from other countries and got lawyers to get stuff changed. If you can ban Christianity in SL then EVERY SINGLE REFERENCE to any other religion or form of worship must also be banned. So why is stuff banned? It's offensive to some people. Well, Queers, Fags, Ani-Seminists, Devil Worshipers, Anti-Christian, Anti-Muslim, whiners and a million other things are offensive to me. Yet you don't see me ranting and complaining about anything like in SL. My biggest complaint in SL is stupid telehubs and cheezy LSL documentation that does not specify boundaries or limits of values that a function can take. If the Lindens continue down the path to try and cater to every little whim and distasteful thing that occurs here then SL will eventually become a really boring, un eventful shopping mall with little or no substance. Ok it's permissible to shoot me or llPush me or anyting you want Finally, people will confuse my whole message and quote me out of context. The whole message is lighten up and have fun. If I had the money: I would buy SL lock stock and barrel. I would freeze the version and just tinker with it to bring it up to a real stable version with just a maintenance crew. I would then take all of the really bright Lindens and create a new game called ATGL (Any Thing Goes Life) and in the TOS it be stated that anyone who takes offense at anything in this GAME will be suspened forever. have a great day! wizzie ____________ 10 or so posts but over 23.4 million words |
Huns Valen
Don't PM me here.
![]() Join date: 3 May 2003
Posts: 2,749
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06-11-2005 14:44
I read what he claimed was the intent of the build. Even if that's true and it was supposed to be satire about the overreaction of insane patriotism that followed 9/11, it lacks any context to convey that message. There are no flags, no SUV's with ribbons, no "God bless the USA" There's only a burning plane and burning bodies and a meaningless pun. It also doesn't change my point about your comparison to people being offended by gays. Gays don't become gay for purposes of ridicule. ![]() _____________________
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Loksr Mysterio
Registered User
Join date: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 23
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06-11-2005 14:45
No, I'm saying either your explanation was complete bullshit or you're thorougly inept at conveying the statement you claimed to be trying to make. My guess is that you simply find the act of being completely offensive to be funny without trying to convey any message at all. "haha look how offensive I am!" That's just sad dude. You seem to be taking this really hard for some reason. It's not like Louis' tower killed your parents and raped your pets, sheesh. |
Louis Neutra
Louisgod
![]() Join date: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 35
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06-11-2005 14:49
No, I'm saying either your explanation was complete bullshit or you're thorougly inept at conveying the statement you claimed to be trying to make. My guess is that you simply find the act of being completely offensive to be funny without trying to convey any message at all. "haha look how offensive I am!" That's just sad dude. i find it offensive and sad that you have 4,572 posts on these boards. _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
![]() Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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06-11-2005 14:55
I don't see why he should have to go out of his way to provide some kind of "context" although the idea of putting SUVs with gaudy car flags isn't a bad one. If he wants anyone to understand his intent then he has to make it clear. He claims it's satire when really it's on the same level of making fart sounds and thinking that's great comedy. He's the one who claimed it was a statement about excessive nationalism. There's nothing in that build to make anyone get that point, so why should anyone believe him? Also, when did I say gays became gay for purposes of ridicule? ![]() You compared people being offended by gays and their symbols as equivelant to people being offended by that build. Look, I don't happen to find the build particularly offensive because stuff like that doesn't bother me. I do think it's incredibly rude and insensitive though and says a lot of bad things about the builder. If people put up stuff like that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know it's going to offend a lot of people, so when it happens and people make their opinions about it known (and by extension their opinions of him) he's not exactly in a position to play the innocent victim or misunderstood artist. _____________________
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Louis Neutra
Louisgod
![]() Join date: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 35
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06-11-2005 14:59
If he wants anyone to understand his intent then he has to make it clear. He claims it's satire when really it's on the same level of making fart sounds and thinking that's great comedy. He's the one who claimed it was a statement about excessive nationalism. There's nothing in that build to make anyone get that point, so why should anyone believe him? I'm not trying to convey a point, genius. It is not there for the world to see and infer as a political statement and I don't want anybody to "understand my intent". It's there for other w-hat members to laugh at and because I found the image amusing, hence why it's on w-hat land. Get over it. edit: if you're not particulary offended by the tower, why are you even debating this? find something better to do with your time. _____________________
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Locke Angelus
Second Life Resident
Join date: 14 Nov 2004
Posts: 9
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06-11-2005 15:02
If he wants anyone to understand his intent then he has to make it clear. He claims it's satire when really it's on the same level of making fart sounds and thinking that's great comedy. He's the one who claimed it was a statement about excessive nationalism. There's nothing in that build to make anyone get that point, so why should anyone believe him? You compared people being offended by gays and their symbols as equivelant to people being offended by that build. Look, I don't happen to find the build particularly offensive because stuff like that doesn't bother me. I do think it's incredibly rude and insensitive though and says a lot of bad things about the builder. If people put up stuff like that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know it's going to offend a lot of people, so when it happens and people make their opinions about it known (and by extension their opinions of him) he's not exactly in a position to play the innocent victim or misunderstood artist. Go away, and don't come back. |
Nikolaii Uritsky
Filthy Old Man
![]() Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 671
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06-11-2005 15:07
Alright, so when can we start dividing up the forums for various MBTI types? You Feeling people make me irate sometimes.
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[ | | ||| | ||||| | | | |||| | || | || | |||| | | ||| | | | || || | |||| | ||| | ] Vote for .PNG support for textures! Vote for chat invisibility! |
Nauv DeFarge
Registered User
![]() Join date: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 83
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06-11-2005 15:11
Alright, so when can we start dividing up the forums for various MBTI types? You Feeling people make me irate sometimes. INTJ reprezentin'. oh yeah! you got me there! Zing! SUBJECTIVE ALERT! I didnt answer, because you would have written off any answer I gave, whilst playing obtuse, again. not to mention, you know damned well why I asked, which is why you immediately started saying porn should be free to display outside, because then you can justify that build of the towers a little more. transparent. you can do better! you can claim youve "licked" me, it doesnt mean a goddamned thing. *ring* *ring* Mom: hello? Huns: "mom, i "licked" this girl on the intarweb!" Mom: "oh huns, i am SO proud of you, someday you will win teh intarweb completely!" Mom (to dad): "hunny, our boy is well on his way to winning teh intarweb! and you argued with me about getting him that commodore!" I think it's funny how Huns responds to you in a mature matter while you spit out unfunny insults and resort to a childlike state. |
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
![]() Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
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06-11-2005 15:12
I read what he claimed was the intent of the build. Even if that's true and it was supposed to be satire about the overreaction of insane patriotism that followed 9/11, it lacks any context to convey that message. Andy Warhol once made an 8-hour "movie" of a camera pointed at the Empire State Building. Some folks have deemed it "erotic", due to it's apparent worship of the male phallic symbol. Sometimes you don't need to put big neon signs up in order to convey a message or feeling. There are no flags, no SUV's with ribbons, no "God bless the USA" There's only a burning plane and burning bodies and a meaningless pun. It also doesn't change my point about your comparison to people being offended by gays. Gays don't become gay for purposes of ridicule. People don't crash planes into buildings for the hell of it either. Not everyone in the world thinks the WTC was a tragedy, you know; a sizable portion of the world (even some *GASP* US Citizens!) were cheering when it happened. One man's flaw is another man's joke of the day. Late-night television makes a living off it. Do you know what jokes get laughed at the most by folks? The most insensitive, outrageous, even sometimes downright racist jokes. Dead baby jokes? Check. Yo Mamma jokes? Check. Ethnic jokes? Check. Sure, shriek and shake your head vehemently and say "no, that's preposterous, NO ONE finds those funny, I'd NEVER laugh at that", I pre-emptively call bullshit; there is, without a doubt, something "offensive" that you've laughed at once in your life. I skipped the majority of this thread, but it basically seems to be boiling down to "Normally I'm pretty pro-free-speech, BUT..." or "This is only meant to be offensive and hence should be a ToS violation." Both are fairly specious arguments to try to get a building torn down. Yes, the ToS basically states that we have no free speech, except that which the lindens give us... and they give us, essentially, the same amount of free speech (if not more) guaranteed by the United States Constitution, as the creators of this world happen to have been brought up with those ideals in mind. As such, speech, even speech as twisted and batshit loony as that building, is protected. What, exactly, is the difference between joking about the Titanic, and the WTC, except time? Both caused a "large" loss of life; both were tragedies in their time. But, like everything else, the past becomes more and more distant. The Titanic is a rotting hulk at the bottom of the ocean. The WTC site is undergoing preliminary building preparations to build a bigger, larger, more tempting target for our enemies. We, as humanity, marches on. It is entirely ludicrous to try to pull someone else's building because it "offends everyone". It doesn't offend everyone, it may not even offend a majority. Free speech for me, thanks. LF _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
![]() Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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06-11-2005 15:17
I'm not trying to convey a point, genius. It is not there for the world to see and infer as a political statement and I don't want anybody to "understand my intent". ... The tower itself is more or less a response to those that felt the need to become uber-patriots after 9-11 and adorn their lawn with American flags and signs that read "JESUS LOVES ALL". _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
![]() Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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06-11-2005 15:22
I skipped the majority of this thread, but it basically seems to be boiling down to "Normally I'm pretty pro-free-speech, BUT..." or "This is only meant to be offensive and hence should be a ToS violation." Both are fairly specious arguments to try to get a building torn down. If you'd read the thread you'd realize that most people including myself are not trying to get the building torn down. They're just pointing out that the builder is a jackass. _____________________
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Louis Neutra
Louisgod
![]() Join date: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 35
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06-11-2005 15:24
... and, like I said, I'm not really trying to convey that point; I said that simply to clear up exactly why it's there. It's more a stupid tower with a funny texture than it is a political statement, which it really isn't meant to be. _____________________
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
![]() Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
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06-11-2005 15:25
If you'd read the thread you'd realize that most people including myself are not trying to get the building torn down. They're just pointing out that the builder is a jackass. Fair enough. Nevertheless, it's your right to say he's a jackass, and his right to say the united states is a country of jackasses. ![]() LF _____________________
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Adohan Zephyr
Bang bang
![]() Join date: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 216
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06-11-2005 15:31
If you'd read the thread you'd realize that most people including myself are not trying to get the building torn down. They're just pointing out that the builder is a jackass. /120/af/46200/1.html _____________________
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Rotten Thatch
Registered User
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 21
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06-11-2005 16:08
Woot! I helped him plan that build.
Anyway, it is an inalienable right to have one's life, Liberty and the PERSUIT of happiness. Nowhere does it say in america's constitution do you have the right to not be offended. In fact, it doesnt say anywhere in the TOS that OFFENSIVENESS is against the TOS. Just objectionable material. I would like to clarify that just because something is OFFENSIVE it is not necessarily OBJECTIONABLE. Furthermore, it is not hate filled. It is not meant to direct hate at anyone, nor is it meant to be racist. there is nothing about race in that build. Everyone is offended by something, and just about everything in the world offends at least someone. I would say that there are just as many people HAPPY about 9-11 as there are outraged by it in this world, and then a vast majority who couldn't care less. I am actually kind of happy about it in fact. I am personally offended by George W Bush, the American Flag, American Imperialism, and Christians... AND PANTS! In fact many people in the world are offended by pants. By the logic that you use to say that anything highly offensive must be taken out of SL, I state that pants must go. I find them QUITE offensive. FREEDOM FROM THE PANTS! This doesn't mean people are going to require, let alone do something like throwing away pants. If you don't have to throw away your pants because I and other individuals are offended by them, then I should not have to throw away my burning American flag cross being rammed by a giant airplane. I have just as much right to offend you as you have to offend me with your pants. |
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
![]() Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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06-11-2005 16:25
Not everyone in the world thinks the WTC was a tragedy, you know; a sizable portion of the world (even some *GASP* US Citizens!) were cheering when it happened. And so . . . what? Anybody who cheers because of thousands of unnecessary deaths of people . . . we are supposed to take these types into consideration? coco |
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
![]() Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
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06-11-2005 16:36
And so . . . what? Anybody who cheers because of thousands of unnecessary deaths of people Ahem. I present Exhibit A, Joe Average American: "Yee haw, I sure hope we turn that thar Eye-Rack into a parkin' lot for all of our oil refineries! God damn towelheads, woooooooooo" . . . we are supposed to take these types into consideration? coco Consideration of what? They're expressing an opinion, same as you. So, yes, you should "take into consideration" their right to have a dissenting opinion. LF _____________________
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Louis Neutra
Louisgod
![]() Join date: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 35
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06-11-2005 16:36
And so . . . what? Anybody who cheers because of thousands of unnecessary deaths of people . . . we are supposed to take these types into consideration? coco Millions of Americans cheered when we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan's civilians. Tens of thousands died that day. PS STOP SIGNING YOUR NAME WE CAN SEE WHO THE AUTHOR IS. _____________________
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
![]() Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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06-11-2005 16:37
"Yes, the ToS basically states that we have no free speech, except that which the lindens give us... and they give us, essentially, the same amount of free speech (if not more) guaranteed by the United States Constitution, as the creators of this world happen to have been brought up with those ideals in mind."
What you been smokin, Lordfly, to state something like that as fact? In point of fact, they provide LESS freedom of speech here than in the country at large, and the TOS says so specifically. In this country, yes, we do have freedom to make little pictures of mass murder and what not. But we don't have the freedom to put them up anywhere we want to. Particularly not on someone else's private property. This game is the Lindens private property. If they are smart, they won't decide to leave things that are broadly offensive standing, or they will have a very small niche game. For people who are generally broadly offensive, lol. coco |
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
![]() Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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06-11-2005 16:41
Because, Lordfly, I don't take people's opinions into consideration or with any degree of seriousness when they applaud death.
(Especially, I might point out, now that I think about it, in a game I use for fun and pleasant escapism.) coco P.S. You do have incredibly wretched and condescending notions of other people, Lordfly, judging by your description of the "average American." |