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What are the free speech limits on an offensive 9/11 build? |
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Adohan Zephyr
Bang bang
![]() Join date: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 216
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06-12-2005 06:20
Clusterfuck
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Baba Yamamoto
baba@slinked.net
Join date: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1,024
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06-12-2005 06:27
No, you misunderstand. please see www.If you put huge monuments that can be seen a sim away by everyone, it is a public viewing and therefore can be censured under certain 1st amendment exceptions such as fighting words .com also see: http://www. Linden Lab is a private organization and has put forth speech standards in the TOS that you have agreed to abide by, including a clause about "broadly offensive" builds that this build was more than clearly in violation of .com edit: p.s. - the ACLU has turned into a extreme leftist organization that has far departed from its noble roots during the Civil Rights Movement. For example, they went after LA for having a tiny cross on their city seal, even though there's a huge pagan goddess in the middle and the town was founded as a Christian mission - discrimination? Yes. And the EFF would agree that public displays don't get the same Free Speech protections that private websites would. Dood! your links don't work! P.S What about SL is "public" ? I totally agreen the lindens have authority here. _____________________
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Ryen Jade
This is a takeover!
![]() Join date: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,329
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06-12-2005 07:14
So, what other murder scenes will we be depicting in SL next in a humorous light? Jews being gased by nazis wearing clown outfits? A suicide bomber arriving at a bomb scene saying "Aw, shit... someone got here first!" ? Tieneman Square with bright red "China is HAPPY!" ? Oklahoma City with "Those fucking children in the daycare were stup1d!!!111one" ? JFK being blown away with Ronald McDonald in the front seat? Hehe those actually sound pretty funny ![]() yes, all 120+ of us are of a hive mind and think the exact same things and commit the same grievous acts and never have any dissenting opinions on anything EVER. ![]() Someone sounds like he needs more vespen gas. _____________________
Between you, Ryen the twerp and Ardith, there's little to change my opinion here.. rather you have reinforced it each in your own ways IM A TWERP, IM A TWERP! ![]() Whats a twerp? ![]() |
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
![]() Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
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06-12-2005 07:24
I would hardly call my posts a rant. Just because you disagree with my political views is no reason to get snippy. As far as calling the Bush Crime Family "neo-con fascists". I wasn't trying to be original, I was trying to be accurate. I don't think you understand the definition of "jingoism". You might accuse me of being slanted, but "jingoism" by definition is extreme misplaced nationalism. And by engaging in such gross cliche, you engage in the very jingoism you oppose. I believe the word is "hypocritical". Fascists, in case you've forgotten, have no relationship whatsoever with conservatives -- except in the radical literature of the loony few. The fact is you did talk about success. You spoke of the builder's alleged inability to adequately get their point across. You don't know what their intent was, but you are certainly free to think you do --as am I. I've seen about 4 attempts to explain their "intent", and so far I'm reminded of my 13 year old son's whining rationalizations whenever he's caught with his hand in the hypothetical cookie jar. It screams "immature" to me, not artist. Not protest. I won't give it that kind of respect. To conflate the actual tragedy of September 11th with this build as you have done is absurd. Ah, gee whiz. The original build only had a plane crashing into twin towers. Who's exactly conflating here? I will say that I was enraged, however, at the Republican National Convention's morbid and excessive use of those 3,000 innocent dead to push their agenda of hate and aggression. Ya know what offends me? Everytime I see a picture of the Twin Towers superimposed over a teary eyed bald eagle emblazoned with the words "We Will Never Forget", and know that it's jingoistic symbology is being used to garner support for the senseless slaughter of ten times that number of innocent Iraqi women and children in the name of US Imperialism. 1. I saw the same emotional outpouring after 9/11 as you did. I wasn't offended, even though it is not how I believe. I simply saw it as people's way of coping with grief and sadness. Maybe they should all conform to YOUR methods of grieving, huh? What was that you were saying about freedom of expression again? These asshats can insult the sensibilities of thousands of people, but thousands of Americans can't respond to their own anger and sadness with something as uninvasive as prayer? There's that "Hypocrisy" word again. 2. Your misinformed take on Iraq doesn't even belong in this thread. I realize that it's tough to separate the topic of the build from the topic of the TOS, but let's try, shall we? Spare me your outrage. I'm not impressed. Well at least we got that out of the way -- I wasn't trying to impress her and it worked. Hurrah ![]() What "They" would you be referring to? From Prok's post it sounds like one person bothered him/her. And when I visited the site, there were two people there. And from the looks of this thread, either those two people have a dozen alts or an awful lot of W-hatters have suddenly decided to get involved with this board. You have even used the term "we" as I recall, in reference to W-hat. "They" indeed. I think it's worth mentioning, again, that Lindens have been to goon territory MANY TIMES over the past year, and we've had a Twin Towers display for most of that time. One of their visits was about the towers. They said the towers were A-OK then. What's the diff now? It's also worth mentioning that the police blotter records a warning given on Friday in that sim, after which the tower part of the display disappeared. So I'll ask your question back to you: what was different? The answer may be in that the Lindens have reconsidered. The answer may be that someone finally lodged a complaint. <shrug> The actions of the Lindens are one side of it. I can understand their reluctance to tell anyone what to build, within broad limits. For the record, I also thought that Ward Churchill (Colorado professor) was free to call the victims of 9/11 "little Eichmanns" and claim that we "deserved" the attack -- while at the same time I thought he was a complete moron asshole. I also thought that he deserved to lose his job, after his employers found out that he was a fraud and a liar. I feel much the same about this W-hat gang. The builders of this exhibit had the right to be as offensive as they wished, and they also have the right to be roundly criticized by the rest of the SL community (that's OUR right). They even have the right to be banned now that they've attacked other SLers. The sword of 'rights' has two edges, it seems. _____________________
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Ryen Jade
This is a takeover!
![]() Join date: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,329
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06-12-2005 07:29
And when I visited the site, there were two people there. And from the looks of this thread, either those two people have a dozen alts or an awful lot of W-hatters have suddenly decided to get involved with this board. "They" indeed. There are over 60,000 something awful members, I know of atleast 40 that are in w-hat in it's current incantation. _____________________
Between you, Ryen the twerp and Ardith, there's little to change my opinion here.. rather you have reinforced it each in your own ways IM A TWERP, IM A TWERP! ![]() Whats a twerp? ![]() |
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
![]() Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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06-12-2005 07:59
I mean really, I know that most people probably won't care for my opinion as I'm new, but it does seem like this is a case of a mountain being made out of a molehill. You can choose to be offended at whatever you like, but you can also laugh at whatever you like too, humor and offensive material is in the eye of the beholder so to speak. Trying to force everyone to abide by everyone else's views on what is and isn't offensive is silly. Maybe i'm new and just don't understand, but I went and saw the building in question and personally found it funny more than anything, it's obviously done in a comedic light. It really just seems like a big tantrum fight between kids or something. You both have your points about the issue and have made them so why not end it at that? You may be new but I respect your opinion, and I agree with you, even though I find absolutely nothing funny about that build. I don't feel any sympathy for the builder though. Free speech cuts both ways. If someone goes out of their way to create something that any moron with two brain cells to rub together knows is so broadly offensive they should be prepared for the backlash. I strongly support this person's right to express himself however he likes. I also strongly support everyone who's now smacking him upside the head. Ain't free speech grand? _____________________
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Masakazu Kojima
ケロ
![]() Join date: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 232
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06-12-2005 08:17
Maybe you misunderstand the concept of group land. Group land is shared by the community. Things on group land are a responsibility of the whole group. It reflects on the whole group. If Bub Linden put offensive content on Linden land, and the Lindens knew it was there and did nothing, they could not simply say "oh, it was Bub's fault, but we're happy leavng it there". By the way, your analogy would work better if Philip Linden was the only person who could actually do anything about it. Maybe you misunderstand the concept of group land. |
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
![]() Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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06-12-2005 08:20
And by engaging in such gross cliche, you engage in the very jingoism you oppose. I believe the word is "hypocritical". Fascists, in case you've forgotten, have no relationship whatsoever with conservatives -- except in the radical literature of the loony few.. Clearly you have no idea what the word jingoism means. Nothing I have said is hypocritical and I agree with you on one thing -- Fascism has no relationship to conservatives. I don't see, however, how the Bush administration has anything to do with conservatives either. They represent an extremely radical group of corporatists (read fascists) who are out to wipe out everything this country has sttod for for over 200 years. Calling me lunatic by proxy doesn't hide the fact that we currently have a very dangerous element in control of our government. I've seen about 4 attempts to explain their "intent", and so far I'm reminded of my 13 year old son's whining rationalizations whenever he's caught with his hand in the hypothetical cookie jar. It screams "immature" to me, not artist. Not protest. I won't give it that kind of respect. That, of course is your perogative --as I have mine. Ah, gee whiz. The original build only had a plane crashing into twin towers. Who's exactly conflating here? You are. By comparing a digital symbol to an actual tragedy. You'ld think 19 w-hatters were armed with boxcutters and crashing into actual buildings with actual people. 1. I saw the same emotional outpouring after 9/11 as you did. I wasn't offended, even though it is not how I believe. I simply saw it as people's way of coping with grief and sadness. Maybe they should all conform to YOUR methods of grieving, huh? Uhm no. You're the one insisting on people conforming to YOUR view. I'm merely expressing mine. What was that you were saying about freedom of expression again? These asshats can insult the sensibilities of thousands of people, but thousands of Americans can't respond to their own anger and sadness with something as uninvasive as prayer? There's that "Hypocrisy" word again. I never said not to pray, I merely stated that I can separate imagery from events. Pray all you like, weep all you like. I truly find rank sentimentalism and jingoistic behaviour offensive. Maybe, as a Jew, I am prone to seeing it as dangerously close to the Nazis in 1933 Germany. I imagine if they had SL back then there would be people who were outraged at mockery of the horror of the Reichstadt fire. 2. Your misinformed take on Iraq doesn't even belong in this thread. I realize that it's tough to separate the topic of the build from the topic of the TOS, but let's try, shall we? No. I wasn't trying to impress her and it worked. Hurrah ![]() To a level you can't even imagine. |
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
![]() Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
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06-12-2005 09:02
Clearly you have no idea what the word jingoism means. You seem to have this fixation on only applying it to political ideologies with which you disagree. I find your weak cliches and gross generalizations to be jingoistic, and I don't care if you don't get the point or not. You're doing exactly the thing you're decrying in others here when you invoke nonsense like "neo-con fascists". Nothing I have said is hypocritical and I agree with you on one thing -- Fascism has no relationship to conservatives. I don't see, however, how the Bush administration has anything to do with conservatives either. They represent an extremely radical group of corporatists (read fascists) who are out to wipe out everything this country has sttod for for over 200 years. Any second now you really should head over to the OT section. Quoting Leftist jingoism doesn't make you look any brighter or more independent, regardless of what kernels of truth may or may not be in those words. (Just a forewarning, in case you weren't aware of it: Put 2008 on your calendar. We're holding a little thing we like to call an "election" then. And whoever gets the most votes, wins. Those who support the loser can choose to work for change or whine incessantly on internet boards about the winning team. Their choice. And yours is ... ?) Calling me lunatic by proxy doesn't hide the fact that we currently have a very dangerous element in control of our government. Your personal paranoia has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with whether the W-hatters are artists or just immature dips who get off on negative attention. You are. By comparing a digital symbol to an actual tragedy. You'ld think 19 w-hatters were armed with boxcutters and crashing into actual buildings with actual people. I'm really troubled by the insistence of the excuse-makers that this is "just a game", "cardboard towers", "symbols are not real", or your pseudo-intellectual rationalization that their display had nothing to do with offending people who suffered very real emotional trauma and loss. There is a link here, created by the offenders themselves, and your continued efforts to reach for justification is, for want of a better word, dangerously silly. Uhm no. You're the one insisting on people conforming to YOUR view. I'm merely expressing mine. Do me a favor. Cite one instance where I've insisted that everyone conform to my view. I think you'll find that I've said the opposite -- and yet, at the same time, expressed my own outrage at the juvenile, insulting pattern of personal behavior evinced by the W-hatters. Apprently it's not the first time they've crapped in other people's spaghetti. They're giving the real, principled protestors and objectors a bad name here, and your refusal to acknowledge their puerility doesn't help your off-topic arguments one bit. Building your little strawmen out of what you *think* I'm saying isn't making you look one bit brighter. I never said not to pray, I merely stated that I can separate imagery from events. Fair enough, but you seem to be missing the fact that, in SL, *everything* is imagery. And images and symbols are important to people -- as several in this thread have noted, the images and symbols of 9/11 evoke very strong emotional reactions from them due to their personal experiences. The W-hatters are basically pissing on those feelings and then laughing about it. And you're applauding the pissing. Pray all you like, weep all you like. I truly find rank sentimentalism and jingoistic behaviour offensive. Maybe, as a Jew, I am prone to seeing it as dangerously close to the Nazis in 1933 Germany. I imagine if they had SL back then there would be people who were outraged at mockery of the horror of the Reichstadt fire. You'd be surprised at how much I actually agree with the root of your argument here, but I do think you're overreaching and end up defending the indefensible in this case. How about we take these folks for what they are - jokes - and not try to assign loftier motives to their actions other than just another form of grieving? _____________________
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Renault Clio
Registered User
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 130
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06-12-2005 09:08
hay whats going on ITT?
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Guderian Faulkland
Registered User
Join date: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 6
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06-12-2005 09:11
hay whats going on ITT? lol stairs? |
Renault Clio
Registered User
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 130
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06-12-2005 09:13
what
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Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
![]() Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
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06-12-2005 09:14
Addendum:
It's time to invoke Godwin's Law in this thread. For those of you unfamiliar with the concept -- Godwin's Law Godwin's law (also Godwin's rule of Nazi analogies) is an adage in Internet culture that was originated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states that: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. In addition, it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly. Godwin's law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. Many people understand Godwin's law to mean this, although (as is clear from the statement of the law above) this is not the original formulation. Nevertheless, there is also a widely-recognized codicil that any intentional invocation of Godwin's law for its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful. See "Quirk's exception" below. Just FYI for those of you falling back on Nazi comparisons. _____________________
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Jeska Linden
Administrator
![]() Join date: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 2,388
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06-12-2005 09:18
This thread has spiraled into inflammatory bickering and as such is being closed.
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