Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive
These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE
What are the free speech limits on an offensive 9/11 build? |
|
|
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
|
06-10-2005 12:40
A little while ago, a player sent through a snapshot of a build in Baku. It has a 747 on fire crashing into a drawing of the World Trade Center. The drawing has the two towers hugging, and says "I'm falling for you". Additionally, there are stick figures in the air falling from the building on fire - and the whole build is physical and will fall over. What are the limits to offensive builds like this in SL? Can and should anything be done about it?
_____________________
Cristiano
ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.  |
|
Arbel Vogel
Burstin' w/Fruit Flavor
Join date: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,155
|
06-10-2005 12:43
Wow....I'm speechless...
_____________________
 Winter Moon, located at Koreshan/70/71/24 Visit my blog for updates! http://wintermoonclothing.blogspot.com/ |
|
Maeve Morgan
ZOMG Resmod!
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,512
|
06-10-2005 12:44
That is just tasteless and low class
_____________________
|
|
Camille Serpentine
Eater of the Dead
Join date: 6 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,236
|
06-10-2005 12:45
Is it also protesting gay marriages?
The towers look the same sex....  _____________________
|
|
Roberta Dalek
Probably trouble
Join date: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,174
|
06-10-2005 12:45
It's been there for months - and has come up in multiple threads.
Ah - this is a new one - I prefered the old one with the two towers and the viking ship. _____________________
See my stuff on SL Boutique!
|
|
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
|
06-10-2005 12:46
why would anyone do something like that build? =(
|
|
David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
|
06-10-2005 12:52
why would anyone do something like that build? =( To get attention. I'm all for free speech. Unfortunately that means putting up with offensive, heartless and moronic speech as well. _____________________
David Lamoreaux
Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery |
|
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
|
06-10-2005 12:55
I don't think "free speech" applies here. This is a closed, private system, and as such is completely under the direction and discretion of LL.
However, I question why (a) nobody's abuse-reported this garbage to Linden (b) if they have, why Linden hasn't removed it. The TOS notes that the determination of appropriateness is entirely at their "sole discretion": you agree that you shall not: [...] upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable; Seems to me this fits into a number of those categories. Its continued existence makes me wonder what they'd do with a display celebrating the Holocaust. _____________________
|
|
Foulcault Mechanique
Father Cheesemonkey
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 557
|
06-10-2005 12:58
Personally I say leave it up. (correction saw cindy's post and forgot common sense for a minute. If LL says take it down then do so)
This is free speech and frankly if we take down everything that offends someone we might want to start thinking about amish clothing. My advice to neighbors.....turn on your no access lists, get some really nifty home security systems, and a really big wall. _____________________
Foulcault
"Keep telling yourself that and someday you just might believe it." "Every Technomage knows the 14 words that will make someone fall in love with you forever, but she only needed one. "Hello"" Galen from Babylon 5 Crusade I'm moving this over to Off-Topic for further Pez ruminations. |
|
Michi Lumin
Sharp and Pointy
Join date: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,793
|
06-10-2005 13:00
why would anyone do something like that build? =( because they're SA. Nothing can be done about it. they're 40,000 strong. |
|
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
|
06-10-2005 13:00
I did just abuse report it, but if it has been there for months, I can't imagine it is the first abuse report. I would definitely think it would fall under the section of the TOS that Cindy cited.
_____________________
Cristiano
ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. |
|
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
|
06-10-2005 13:15
because they're SA. Nothing can be done about it. they're 40,000 strong. SA? There aren't even 40,000 individual subscribers to SL. Christiano, maybe the key is for a bunch of us to all report it. Can you IM me the Landmark so I can do so tonight? Thanks. _____________________
|
|
Ace Cassidy
Resident Bohemian
Join date: 5 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,228
|
06-10-2005 13:20
Terribly offensive and tasteless? Of course.
Should it be torn down? No Its a slippery slope when we start deciding what can and cannot stay in-world based on our subjective sense of what is offensive. I find the Catholic Church and anything related to George W Bush offensive. Can we ban any references to these too? - Ace _____________________
"Free your mind, and your ass will follow" - George Clinton
|
|
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
|
06-10-2005 13:24
It's worth a $25 Building neg-rate
 _____________________
|
|
Jack Digeridoo
machinimaniac
Join date: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1,170
|
06-10-2005 13:30
and the whole build is physical and will fall over. Not straight down like I saw on TV, eh..... _____________________
If you'll excuse me, it's, it's time to make the world safe for democracy.
|
|
Cubey Terra
Aircraft Builder
Join date: 6 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,725
|
06-10-2005 13:33
Yes, I'd say it's pretty offensive, especially to those related to one of the victims. Everyone should remember that this is a privately-owned virtual world, and free speech rules don't apply.
(By the way, if you decide to neg-rate, neg the owner and not the creator. Some components of this build were created by someone else and they probably aren't aware that the objects were used like this.) _____________________
C U B E Y · T E R R A
planes · helicopters · blimps · balloons · skydiving · submarines Available at Abbotts Aerodrome and XstreetSL.com  |
|
Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
|
06-10-2005 13:34
I did just abuse report it, but if it has been there for months, I can't imagine it is the first abuse report. I would definitely think it would fall under the section of the TOS that Cindy cited. If it has been around *that* long and no one abuse reported it... doesn't that mean by definition that it's not such a big deal? Not being American, I for one am really very, very, tired of hearing about 9/11. Isn't it about time someone took the mickey out of it? It's not like they are saying anything abusive in particular about it, just general sillyness. Also, it is only abuse if someone is offended, which it seems up until now they were not maybe. But the posting of the image here practically *gurantees* that offense will be realised. . _____________________
.
black art furniture & classic clothing =================== Black in Neufreistadt Black @ ONE Black @ www.SLBoutique.com . |
|
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
|
06-10-2005 13:39
I dunno. If it has been around *that* long and no one abuse reported it... doesn't that mean by definition that it's not such a big deal? Or it's quite possible that the Lindens decided to leave it up, regardless of how many reports they got. Not being American, I for one am really very, very, tired of hearing about 9/11. Isn't it about time someone took the mickey out of it? Kind of hard to forget about 3,000 innocent people dying that horribly - especially when their surviving friends and relatives are still around. It's not like they are saying anything abusive in particular about it, just general sillyness. So you wouldn't object if we erected something silly about Pol Pot or Tim McVeigh? Or how about something that celebrates the atomic bombing of Hiroshima? I don't see how anyone could fail to see the dire lack of taste - and by inference, respect for others - in something like this. Regardless of any other political sentiments they may hold, mass murder is not something that should be celebrated. If the Lindens are willing to let this continue in their world it tells me a great deal about them. Things like this are not designed to add one single thing of value to Second Life. They're only designed to piss people off. _____________________
|
|
Roberta Dalek
Probably trouble
Join date: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,174
|
06-10-2005 13:43
Regardless of any other political sentiments they may hold, mass murder is not something that should be celebrated. Ok - so lets ban all things connected with mass murder. How many people need to have died to qualify? Should we make a list? _____________________
See my stuff on SL Boutique!
|
|
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
|
06-10-2005 13:44
My heart wrenched when I saw this and tears came to my eyes. I lost a job in a building near the WTC and lost neighbours and fellow parishioners. My son's classmate has no father because of those "buildings who fell for each other". My neighbour's nephew is dead leaving behind kids. There's another neighbour with a disabled child whose husband perished, a teacher at the school whose husband died, loads of maimed people walking around, maimed in spirit and mind if not body. One of them is my son's friend's mother who is a policewoman, and had to deal with the "jumpers". Seeing the "jumpers" permanently damaged her psyche. People aren't supposed to choose jumping out of a burning building as an option preferable to sitting still and dying but they do...a Catholic priest on the scene was killed because a "jumper" fell on him.
The stench in the air for months of the combination of burning human flesh, melted plastic, and steel is something I'll never forget as long as I live. There are still 5,000 of the "pieces" in the morgue stored awaiting DNA identification, I've seen it. Anger or pain isn't even the feeling you have when you see a travesty like this, an abomination, what you see before your eyes is just some kind of white glare. Maybe a mass negrating would at least allow the community not to feel helpless, and at least make new people aware that the creators of this abomination are not accepted in polite company. It doesn't seem right to me that the Lindens can remove anti-gay signs from my lawn, and remove anti-semitic/pro-Nazi signage or expression from other areas, yet not remove this or ban for its offensiveness. Philip Linden talked the other day about the balance between tolerance and freedom of expression.... Well, ok, whatever. He's from San Francisco. I'm from New York. New Yorkers, even the most hip, leftist, avant-garde type of artists, don't find this even some form of social commentary or satire. They just find it sick and beyond the pale. _____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
|
|
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
|
06-10-2005 13:44
Ok - so lets ban all things connected with mass murder. How many people need to have died to qualify? Should we make a list? As I noted in my cite of the TOS, that's up to the Lindens. I wouldn't think anything which glorified murder (at all) would be acceptable. Mass murder is just the destruction of Life writ larger. _____________________
|
|
Lash Xevious
Gooberly
Join date: 8 May 2004
Posts: 1,348
|
06-10-2005 13:49
I also think the build is tasteless and offensive to me and to many people who were affected by what they witnessed in 9-11. If the Lindens took it down, I would have no problem. If they left it up, I try to look at this at a different perspective ...
If a build depicted the reenactment of the Titanic, should it be taken down. If a build portrayed the tsunami disaster, showing little children being swallowed up by giant waves, should it be taken down. Should a build with a decaying corpse inside a room be taken down. If the build portrayed Afghans being blown up inside a cave, should it be taken down. If a build had a picture of a victim of anorexia and said in caption, Thin is in, should it be taken down? What if it mocked the cruxification of Christ? The witch trials etc. Some people find drug and sex paraphernalia offensive. Where is the line? Mocking the 9-11 tragedy is what it is. It's offensive. It's tasteless. I feel it is insensitive to the subject they portrayed. But still ... Is the reason for silencing these disinhibited forms of expression a matter of principle or just plain censorship? I think in this case, if the build was taken down, it'd go under that gray area of unethical behaviour. But there is no code of ethics defined for SL. Well, not in paper. |
|
Camille Serpentine
Eater of the Dead
Join date: 6 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,236
|
06-10-2005 13:53
When the buildings collapsed on 9/11, I was horrified and it bother me for months.
But if we cannot laugh and make jokes, we haven't truely gotten past being a victim. After the tsunami last year, the towers falling is now a smaller horror in my mind. Yes it was senseless, but I know why the idiots did it. The Tsunami, though explanable, is still mindboggling in its reach, number of deaths, and widespread destruction. I personally find the image funny, and feel much better being able to find humor in that episode of our nation's history. _____________________
|
|
Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
|
06-10-2005 14:01
My heart wrenched when I saw this and tears came to my eyes. I lost a job in a building near the WTC and lost neighbours and fellow parishioners. My son's classmate has no father because of those "buildings who fell for each other". My neighbour's nephew is dead leaving behind kids. There's another neighbour with a disabled child whose husband perished, a teacher at the school whose husband died, loads of maimed people walking around, maimed in spirit and mind if not body. One of them is my son's friend's mother who is a policewoman, and had to deal with the "jumpers". Seeing the "jumpers" permanently damaged her psyche. People aren't supposed to choose jumping out of a burning building as an option preferable to sitting still and dying but they do...a Catholic priest on the scene was killed because a "jumper" fell on him. I live nearby and the stench in the air for months of the combination of burning human flesh, melted plastic, and steel is something I'll never forget as long as I live. I live across from the morgue where 5,000 of the "pieces" are stored awaiting DNA identification. Anger or pain isn't even the feeling you have when you see a travesty like this, an abomination, what you see before your eyes is just some kind of white glare. Maybe a mass negrating would at least allow the community not to feel helpless, and at least make new people aware that the creators of this abomination are not accepted in polite company. It doesn't seem right to me that the Lindens can remove anti-gay signs from my lawn, and remove anti-semitic/pro-Nazi signage or expression from other areas, yet not remove this or ban for its offensiveness. Philip Linden talked the other day about the balance between tolerance and freedom of expression.... Well, ok, whatever. He's from San Francisco. I'm from New York. New Yorkers, even the most hip, leftist, avant-garde type of artists, don't find this even some form of social commentary or satire. They just find it sick and beyond the pale. I have to completely agree with Prokofy. I'm all for free speech, but is not protected by it in my opinion. _____________________
|
|
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
|
06-10-2005 14:04
If a build depicted the reenactment of the Titanic, should it be taken down. If a build portrayed the tsunami disaster, showing little children being swallowed up by giant waves, should it be taken down. Neither of those was a purposeful act of horrific murder. Should a build with a decaying corpse inside a room be taken down. If the build portrayed Afghans being blown up inside a cave, should it be taken down. If a build had a picture of a victim of anorexia and said in caption, Thin is in, should it be taken down? What if it mocked the cruxification of Christ? The witch trials etc. Some people find drug and sex paraphernalia offensive. Where is the line? There is no mythical 'slippery slope' here, despite what some of you want to claim. The issue is not censorship -- the Lindens engage in censorship already. The issue is the tenor of this virtual world. Do you really feel the need to tolerate the sort of sociopathic, unfeeling insult to our sensibilities things like this represent? It's on a different plane from religious, sexual or political symbology which can be put down to individual perspective. This strikes directly at what each of us should hold sacred regardless of our views-- eg, human life. I fail to see where there's any compromise room on that issue. Either we respect Life and disdain images like this, or we open the door to things some of us can't even imagine and, by our silence, implicate our own consciences. I think in this case, if the build was taken down, it'd go under that gray area of unethical behaviour. But there is no code of ethics defined for SL. Well, not in paper. Read the TOS again. The code of ethics is actually quite well defined -- I cited it earlier in this thread. _____________________
|
