What are the free speech limits on an offensive 9/11 build?

I find sex offensive, can I ban that?

Seriously. If we all decided what is considered offensive or not, nothing would be here. Yes it was a tragic event and affected a lot of people.

But thanks to this thread, it was given the attention it wanted. Congrats!

Sex itself doesn't glorify violence and kill people.


Nobody was banned. And the question isn't one of free speech so much as what Linden decides they want represented in their world. It's their decision, and I'm sure if something happened that disgusted enough people to make them leave, they'd rather keep those people (not that this would do it, but if you can use sex as an analogy, I can make up analogies too)


For all you know, the attention prompted enough complaints and neg-rates that the two dimwits who did this decided to change it, or were told to. You don't know. And I always find discussions like this important, simply because communities need to clarify their values every once in a while. I think we did that.

Free speech please. Thanks.

LF

Roberta,

That post of yours is unbelievably ironic coming from one of the most nationalistic posters in these forums. You have posted more anti-American drivel than anyone else, and then have the audacity to claim that "opposition to nationalism" being key to your belief system. What a core belief system you have, because you certainly don't live your beliefs by example.

No where did I, who started this thread, say anything about it being anti-American. Reread the original post. You are the one with anti-American hangups, Roberta and injected that into this thread.

I asked what the limits of free speech were on this issue, because yes, as someone who had a family member killed in the WTC (from Venezuela, not an American) and as someone who was severely traumatized by the events, to have seen this display in SL, out in the open, in the middle of the sim, offended me as it did other people. I didn't demand anything be done about it, I asked if anything even could, or should be done.

I am not sure why exactly you have to make everything about Americans, but the bias is yours, Roberta, not anyone elses. I was responding how I felt as a human being to seeing the descrration of the memory of a loved one's death and the deaths of thousands of innocent people mocked and celebrated. Instead of asking yourself how you should respond "as a non-American", you should be asking how you should respond as a compassionate human. Or are you not that either?

Hey, all.

Although this thread was unpleasant at times, it got me to thinking about issues like respect and freedom of expression. I think it was a good conversation to have and it seems like at least some others had the same reaction -- or at least had an opportunity to think about and get a little more committed to their own opinion.

I was also reminded us once again about a moment in our history which should not be forgotten.

That means that the build in question has (unwittingly, no doubt) made the world a little better place.

Now, if people are wiser and offended is that better -- or worse -- than not affected at all?

As a culture we're really too hung up on being nice, at the expense of much more important things that we could be for each other.

--Allie

Ho hum another decent subject turned into a squabble between forum posters.

"Free speech" that deeply hurts other people is abusing the privliege in my opinion. If someone built a shrine glorifying what the Nazis did to the Jewish people I would be at the Linden's doorstep demanding it be removed and the offenders punished.

Second Life is not the U.S. of A. and different rules apply here.

There's a lot of things I personally find offensive that I find all the time in SL. A lot of people have mentioned them previously, so I'll refrain from listing specifics. It wouldn't really add anything to my point anyway.

You can't cleanse the world of everything in the world that offends you, nor should you. When there are things in SL that I just cannot countenance, I don't go near them. I don't whine about 'thus-and-so is OVER THE LINE' because really, offense is a very personal thing - sure, a lot of you are offended by a WTC joke. What if I was equally offended by dance clubs because I was a big Whitesnake fan and dance clubs reminded me of the terrible tragedy that stuck that night in Rhode Island? Would you then support a ban on dance clubs in SL?

I didn't think so.

My point here is twofold: One, you never know what someone is going to find inconceivably offensive. (Coda: The inverse is true, you never know what someone - or a lot of someones - will consider fair game for comedy.) Two: There's a wide, wide gulf between something that's 'offensive' and something that's on the 'hate crime' level. In my opinion, this didn't even come /close/ to that.

We're all adults here. Let's leave the whining and drama-whoring to the highschoolers who do it better than us, hm?

I created that tower and I see no harm in having it up there. Our original towers (which offended many of you) were taken down, so I set off on a quest to make a new one and stumbled upon that Valentine texture via Google and found it hilarious and figured other w-hats would find it entertaining.

I'm truly ashamed that many of you see it as offensive. If you cannot look at the tower and realize that it's there for the sake of humor, then you honestly need to reevalute your lives and try to make your time more productive than wasting it on STARTING A THREAD ON AN INTERNET FORUM. The tower itself is more or less a response to those that felt the need to become uber-patriots after 9-11 and adorn their lawn with American flags and signs that read "JESUS LOVES ALL". Since you found the tower so offensive, this is what I find offensive and would like removed immediately from Second Life:

-Pants
-The acronyms LOL, ROFL, OMG and IIRC
-Furries with 6 gigantic breasts on their chest
-The Teletubby Po, but not Laa-laa
-The Edge
-The abundance of sex balls in virtually every other house
-The terrible secret of space

and most importantly:

-People that take Second Life to truly be their second life and cannot take a joke, no matter how crude, tasteless, or offensive it may be.

Some of you have to realize that others have dissenting views on specific matters. I consider being told to take my tower down offensive; should I start a thread and drivel on about how censoring my builds is a violation of MY free speech?

Threads like this and people like Cristiano really ruin the game for me. This is not your life. This is not reality. It's a stupid online game that some of you take a tad too seriously.

ps: good job at making this an issue, now others in my group are riled up about the matter. If you had just ignored my build and gone on with your life, nobody would've said anything.

Teddy, being offended by something is far different than seeing symbols of hatred and racism that are only designed to stir up violence. Linden Labs does not tolerate that here and I applaud them for that.

*makes notes about blackballing the entire W-Hat group for hosting this garbage on their land*

WHAT are you talking about? The tower was in NO WAY designed to be a symbol that stood for racism or stir up violence. The only reason this is a matter is because people are MAKING it a matter. I simply found the image humorous.

I really have no opinion about your tower. If you read my post you will see I was referring to Teddy Kennedy's post.

It works both ways love. I have an ever increasing list of people I don't want to associate with in world.

I wish more people in SL were as smart as you.

It's one of the better builds in secondlife.


I would much rather see creativity like this then the endless box malls and dildo clubs...

You PC wankers should lay off... if you don't like it don't look... quit trying to force your moral opinion on everyone else.

I defend your right to express yourself in the manner that you choose, but I think you're a first class asshat. There's nothing funny about that build (and that's coming from someone who detests the insane nationalism, flag waving, SUV ribbons, and most especially the "world changed on 9/11" garbage). What is funny (in a sad and pathetic sort of way) is that you think it is. For that I thank you for the comedy. As I said earlier I'm sure your mom is real proud.

That's interesting. Why do you play online games?

man it's as if you've met me in real life! You know my Mom too?

My mum would have been proud - she always told me to think for myself.

http://www.internet-terrori.st/lolatwtc.swf

LOLOLo1111111!!!111

Levity is a very human way of dealing with loss. If I choose to laugh at "I'm Falling For You" that is my choice. You can say that's "sick" or "wrong" but this doesn't really faze me. It's your subjective opinion and has no more intrinsic value than my opinion.

I was pretty angry over 9/11, but I was also pretty angry about all the mindless jingoism we saw in the months that followed. People who looked at the 4th of July as nothing more than a day to fire up the barbeque and watch fireworks and maybe, for 8 seconds, remember George Washington crossing the Delaware - people who, on 9/10/2001 would have been indifferent to the idea of actually buying a flag and flying it off their front porch - suddenly felt the need to strap one or more plastic flags on their cars and announce their "new-found patriotism" to the world. This struck me as being nothing more than reptilian group-think, an indulgence in some mindless ritual.

The funny thing is, many Lindens have visited Baku many times (on business and just to say hi.) At least one of those visits related to the towers. They decided to leave them alone. Why should this change today? Admittedly, selecting what is TOSable lends itself to arbitrary judgement. I suspect that the removal of "I'm Falling For You" might well not have happened, had some other Linden been asked to look at it.

What worries me is the rampant tolerance for censorship I see in this thread. This basically boils down to a bunch of people trying to set moral standards for everyone else because they think they're on some kind of moral high ground. I have news for you folks. Your opinions are 100% subjective, and are based on the exact same kind of thinking that made John Ashcroft think it would be OK to ban pornography, and that makes Bible Belters advocate for teaching Christian creationism in public schools. It is the thought that you are somehow intrinsically better than "those people" and therefore have a right to legislate good taste.

For those of you who wish to see "Falling" gone permanently, I invite you to examine facets of your own life and belief systems that others may find objectionable. Should you curb these things because others find them offensive? Or should you be allowed to continue on unharassed, as long as you aren't harming anyone? As far as I can tell, this is the same deal.

Quoted for truth.

good, you should be. someday when you grow up, hopefully you will understand why.

there is no free speech here. This is a privately owned game whose owners have removed builds that they deemed to be "broadly offensive".

it's sure interesting that when you want to apply real world standards like "free speech" to SL, that's ok, but let someone and else do that and LOOK OUT! "teh intarweb is serious business!"

good, hopefully it will ruin it so much you will go back to quake, or picking zits with your brethren.

right, see my point about your whinging about free speech above, then talk to me about it not being real life.

if it's a "stupid online game", why do you care about "free speech" so much? if it's a "stupid online game", why do you play it?

nice that you want to project and force YOUR VIEW of how people deal with loss on the rest of us.

you don't speak for me, thanks.

I think it was tasteless until George Bush decided to create a situation such that 20,000 iraqis die because a few thousand americans died from 9/11.

Now it's just ironic.

Anyways, speaking of "shit-stirrers.."

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black!