What are the free speech limits on an offensive 9/11 build?

Okay. I've actually read every single post in this thread.

Most of you are crazy.

Do the world a favour and build a giant brick wall around your home and dwell in your house-with-no-corners.

Whatever happened to "reader beware?"

Let's make no mistake that words and images have a profound power over our minds. But I cannot fathom why we should leave stones un-turned in our pursuit of enlightenment.

We are temporary and insignificant to the universe. Time is not compassionate as we are.. and so I personally believe that we should not silence one another but carry on and let our conscience be our judge.

For at one time, we burned books that ended up being important to our evolution. Anyone remember the Dark Ages? A time when the brilliant writings of mathematicians and philosophers were burned for being offensive.

Even in modern times, Salman Rushdie is continually hunted by an Iranian fatwa on his life for writing a book condemning radicalism in the Islamic community ("The Satanic Verses".

Therefore, what may be offensive to one person may be something of importance to another.

My solution to this plague of censorship -- learn to "Accept the anxieties and difficulties of this life," and "Attain deliverance in disturbances." (Kyong-Ho, "Sayings of a Zen Master".

In other words -- what may offend you can bring you resolve in your purpose. And you never know, what may be offensive to you may be inspiring to another and thus benefit everyone in ways we cannot imagine.

Sick or twisted -- the human mind, no matter how dark, is the only source we have of liberation from our own condemnations.

I will ever remain humble and subject to redicule and objection -- but I will always accept it with open arms and thanks.

I don't really care what the ToS says. Show me examples that the Lindens squelch free speech in their little jurisdiction more than the United States government does in the country.



Actually, I could probably kill a bunch of feeding mice (humanely), throw them in a mass grave, light them on fire, take a picture of it, frame it, and sell it to an art museum. There is nothing that specifically says that I cannot.



If the lindens were smart they wouldn't go on a Holy Crusade trying to clean up SL. If you're going to take down the "more offensive" bits of SL, better start with that thar sex trade. Bondage and Yiffing and Orgies, oh my!

People put torture racks, bondage toys, dildos, and bukkake cum sprayers everywhere in SL, and no one decries this as "offensive". There is an entire private continent (open to the public) that puts a "positive" spin on HUMAN SLAVERY, for christ's sake.

But as soon as someone doodles in MS Paint with the picture of two former buildings and a ridiculous title on it, it's suddenly the worst thing ever.

If you're going to take potshots at a political statement because it's offensive, start in your own back yard first. Or, for most folks in SL, their own private skyboxen.

You can take down my political political statements when I can take down your orgy factory.

LF

I am surrounded by them, Cocopants. Many of my coworkers, many many college students, and incalculable other folks I've come into contact with have that exact same opinion. Try walking outside and talking to your fellow man before you simply assume my opinion is 100% incorrect. Thanks.

LF

I agree with you, Icon. And I think freedom of speech is the best thing in the world, and the strongest thing we have going for us in the United States, and worth fighting for. (I suppose I would put freedom of religion next.)

But if someone decided to put up this very same display we are talking about here in my neighborhood movie theater, chances are I would decide never to go there again. This game is in a similar situation. Though much looser, of course, there is a line that, if they cross it, people will move on to something else.

The game is not supposed to be a microcosm of utopia. It still involves real people, in real societies, and thus certain sensitive things need to not pop up within it, or they risk losing players and profits.

The game really isn't just a platform for someone's ideas for testing the boundaries free speech. That just isn't what it is. And even where free speech exists, there are laws defining and delineating it. Where that doesn't exist, there is public pressure.

Much as I am in favor of free speech, I would rather that the game grew. That's why I think the Lindens should take this site down as "broadly offensive." I realize these are hard calls to make, but if they don't make some calls, and draw some lines, they will have no one left but those who want to pay to play in a cesspool.

It's a practical matter, really.

cococococococococococococococococococococococococococo

I hope you never come to Baku again because of my tower.

Cocopants! I love that!

Well, Lordfly, I don't think sex is quite the same. Sex is normal, really. And for the issue of slavery, I have argued with Prokofy about that for a couple of years now, and though I'm not in favor of slavery in the slightest, in the context of consesual relationships that don't hurt anyone else - and where one person can withdraw at any time - I just don't see it as much of a threat. I have a lot of sort of socio-psychological reasons why I think this appeals to some, but I won't go into them here.

I would, if it were up to me, draw the line - in my private entertainment venue - at (1) racist and hateful things, (2) stalking behavior and threats to one's rl, (3) displays designed to put down any country (SL players are from many countries), (4) displays that glamorize, celebrate, trivialize, make fun of, or put forward in an upsetting and divisive fashion, any historical human tragedy.

That would be my rules for the game. My rules for what Joe Blow says in the public arena, in his own magazine, in his own art display, in his own play, or in his own backyard - well, that's his right. Whether or not anyone else will support it, congratulate him for it, or pay money to see it, is another question altogether.

coco

Well I'm glad we can agree on the importance of free speech...

I think we're at a bit of a logical conundrum.

See... if said theatre did display something that was offensive to you; you might see it and leave and never go back.

You could do the same in SL actually.

And if you did walk away, would that not be enough for your concience to rest? Leave and know that the creator of such work will have his mind to bear judge upon his actions in the end?

No, it wouldn't be enough. It would be like what someone earlier in this thread, it would also tell me something about the Lindens.

I don't view every player in the game as living in his own little fiefdom, with no repercussions on the other players or the game at large. I, personally, wouldn't want to be associated with a game (or an anything) - and want to bring my friends to join me in it - if these things are allowed to continue.

I view it not as the World Wide Web, where I can just avoid sites, but as belonging to the Lindens. We pay them. We come to live in their environment. As such, it is ultimately their responsibility to set the standards.

I realize none of it is an easy call, and that each situation has to be judged on its own merit (or, more appropriately in cases like these, the degree of its lack of merit). And I wouldn't expect their every call to be perfect, or that everyone would agree on each call.

But overall, there has to be a certain level of civility required, or I wouldn't want to be in the environment. Nor would I bring my friends.

coco

P.S. In other words, SL itself would be analogous to the theater; not each parcel on it, as if each represented a separate theater.

We no longer have freedom of speech in this country, and are rapidly approaching the ending of freedom of religion. The current bunch of neocon fascists in the Whitehouse (who happen to use the tragedy of 911 in a far more disgusting manner than w-hat) are busy seeing to that.

Frankly, I applaud the builder's comment on nationalist jingoism. Bravo.

I haven't seen a post from you in a while. Hi!

Now Coco;

True -- SL is a private establishment, just as a theatre is. Both you can leave and not endorse if you do happen to find them containing or endorsing material which may be offensive to you.

But I still think a writer should uphold their right to write fiercely and without borders, just as I think people should express themselves in much the same way.

So I think the object of our discussion is not at "what we can express" now, but what the Lindens will allow us to express...

Personally, I think LL should do more about the real jerks in SL who harrass and harangue other players. This build wasn't stalking anyone or deliberately putting itself infront of other peoples' ability to enjoy SL.

In the greater context of the world, I remain optimistic that we as people will find a way to get along someday. However, I think it will take more than shutting other people out because they hurt our feelings...

and if that is the way one feels, then they have every right to build a brick wall around themselves and live in a house-with-no-corners. The rest of us will simply mill about and enjoy the party.

Ding ding ding!
We have a winner!

How dare you use logic in this thread mister I am going to report you to the internet police >=(

EDIT: sup page 20

1) My post is directly in line with this thread, as it has much to do with free speech issues, and the post that I was responding to claimed we still have free speech in this country. I maintain we do not. So to answer your request for me to go to OT? No, I won't. Frankly, I don't see why you are taking my critique of the Bush administration personally. Are you a White House staffer?

2)If your arguement is that this piece of "sculpture" (in actuality it's digital art) is not as successful as Serano's "Piss Christ", I would agree --but then I didn't realize that the standards for "political commentary as art" needed to be at the level of museum pieces to be included in SL. I do credit this as "art". It does exactly what "art" is supposed to do --provoke a reaction in the viewer --after 20 pages of commentary, I'm thinking that qualifies.

Look, people, someone who makes something doesn't necessarily have to give you a goddamn map telling you what the meaning is. HURR I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT THE CREATOR MEANT BY HIS DISPLAY SO HE MUST BE A GIANT DUMB HURF DURF

OK, go to a museum of modern art. I guarantee that there will be at least one piece that makes you wonder what the hell the artist was thinking. Does that make the artist an idiot? No. Does it make you an idiot? Not necessarily. Does it mean you just didn't get it? HOLY CRAP I THINK WE MIGHT HAVE A WINNER HERE

OK, now replace MOMA with SL and the painting you didn't get with the towers build. Is this the same situation? OK, next step: Say the piece of art you didn't get contained some imagery you found offensive. Does that change anything?

HEY THAT'S NOT FAIR I PAY GOOD MONEY TO PLAY THIS GAME AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PAY TO GET OFFENDED

OK, what if you had some sort of charter membership thing to the MOMA? Would you expect to be able to tell the curator to take the painting down?

I didn't think so.

Okay

BTW -- definition of "jingoism"

jingoism
noun :
the extreme belief that your own country is always best, which is often shown in enthusiastic support for a war against another country:
Patriotism can turn into jingoism and intolerance very quickly.

Maybe, but that doesn't stop the residents from asking for the same rights in SL that we have in RL. Why wouldn't we?

[/size]

Puerile insensitivity is a strategy to invoke controversy. Political, social, and artistic. Not a pleasent strategy, nor a subtle one. But it sure worked here.

We could start with all the Scots and Irish who were starved to death by the English, for one thing; there were certainly millions of them.

We're terribly sorry that we forced you to read this thread, we apologize.


Seriously, what did you expect coming into this thread? Kittens and flowers? If "offensive 9/11 build" in the title didn't get you, I hope you read the first post before clicking on the image.



Mass negratings are against the rules.

well, this doesn't have anything to do with the arguments and points of view really, but it is funny and ironic:

I just got off the game to have a snack before I get back on, and i like to read while i eat fruit popsicles, lol, so I just now read this.

While I was on the game, I was attending a meeting on Prok's land regarding the 10% land thingie for group land.

While there, up comes "Rotten Thatch" to bump Prok and say, "Allah Allah". Well, Prok got rid of him before I could say hi, lol.

Then I noticed this huge aircraft just behind the building there, and Thatch was on it. I didn't even put two and two together at that point.

Then the aircraft left and after a bit, there was the "I'm Falling for You" part of the build, along with Thatch again. Again, Prok got rid of him, I guess, before I could say hi, lol.

So . . . um . . . in this case the two things - (a) this supposedly innocuous build getting all wound up with discussions of free speech here and (b) "real jerks in SL who harrass and harangue other players" are actually one and the same thing. lol And stalk.

coco

HA! I didn't even know who was there. I just sort of crashed. that airplane script is QUITE difficult to control. Either way I almost split my sides. I apologise for that though... but I still have to thank you for the laugh

And you just sort of crashed the "Falling for You" part of the build there, too?

coco

So, what other murder scenes will we be depicting in SL next in a humorous light?

Jews being gased by nazis wearing clown outfits?

A suicide bomber arriving at a bomb scene saying "Aw, shit... someone got here first!" ?

Tieneman Square with bright red "China is HAPPY!" ?

Oklahoma City with "Those fucking children in the daycare were stup1d!!!111one" ?

JFK being blown away with Ronald McDonald in the front seat?

I mean seriously. 3000 people died in those towers. It is a crime scene. It is the death of many innocent civilians. I don't like what America has done with it either, but just seeing this display makes me physically ill, and I imagine many many people have the same reaction.

This is beyond broadly offesive. Period. If you don't understand that, you never will. "Fighting words" is a legitimate exception to the First Amendment. This display pisses so many people off, and I know plenty of people who would very easily feel this is inciting a fight; it falls under that exception.
Even if you go by First Amendment standards - which are more free than the Linden Lab standards - this does not belong in a public area.

Fighting Words exception:
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/Speech/arts/topic.aspx?topic=fighting_words

..


What this is NOT is a slippery slope. Fighting words is a defined exception to free speech.

I'm sorry, W-Hat. You're wrong.

To me displays of the type this thread is about is just poor taste.
Call it whatever you want but imho is just bad taste.
Robert Mapplethorpe's "Crucifix in a bottle of Urine" is another example of poor taste.
Sure the argument can be made " well its art", but when it comes down to it,
Its just bad taste and you cant legislate bad taste.