Live Help or Dead Disservice?

I've generally had a good experience with Live Help. This is a volunteer player help service that is the first line of defense in game trouble-shooting before paid Linden staff take up a problem or provide guidance. We all acknowledge its importance, its usefulness, and the selfless toil of the laboring Live Helpers in dealing with the steep learning curve for this game.

When it's good, it's very, very good, but when it is bad it is horrid. I've had some real zingers. I'll never forget the guy who just flatly stated to me "But that's not true" when I told him that I had reported a bug on my land, having to do with the refusal of the land to change the group settings, and had reported it 3 times, without any solution. How could he know that my experience was "not true"? I have often found that if you can't fix a problem at the level of Live Help, which sometimes summons a Linden, then often your problem won't get solved--ever. Bug reports opens up a trouble ticket, but after awhile, they usually say "we couldn't duplicate your problem in the lab, good bye". Worse, Live Help can serve as a platform for some players to continue to lord it over others and try to enforce their outdated, beta-era notions of what is "proper" in the game.

Example: today, I was minding my own business standing on my island talking in IMs to two people who had made bids on my island as it happened. We were working out details. I noticed that some guy's name was hovering by my head, and a guy was practically standing on my head. I then saw he bore the title "Live Help". I looked around in confusion, thinking that some fire had broken out or I had inadvertantly done something wrong, because I hadn't summoned "Live Help". I coulnd't understand why I was being paid a visit by Live Help. Here's the transcript of our ensuing conversation, without names of course:

You: Hi [Live Helper]
LH: Hello
You: how are you
LH: Good thanks, and you?
LH: Nice island
You: Thanks
You: I love it
You: But I did intend to sell it from the beginning.
LH: lol You're having a laugh if you think someone's going to pay $500 for it though
You: Actually I've had higher offers
You: I'm considering them all now
You: I just want to have a residence though not a club
LH: hah! Why don't they buy a sim for $195 and make an island?
You: Because those kind of islands often are buggy
You: the Lindens don't help
You: the Live Help doesn't help
You: and this island is on the grid
You: in a new mature fast sim
You: where other people can fly to it easily
You: private islands are developing a bad name
You: This one is associated with a residential community on the mainland
LH: Well, best of luck with it
You: Yes
You: and I wonder how you got the position of Live Helper
You: if you see your purpose as coming up and telling people "that's a laugh" about how they sell their land
You: Not very collegial of you
You: because you aren't looking at the bigger picture
You: of how your Lindens do not provide customer service on buggy private islands
You: That's why this one is worth something at least to some customers
LH: Well, a) I don't work for Linden labs, and b) I can express my opinions relatively freely. As long as I'm not slandering you or making racisit comments then that counts as free speech
LH: So, you go about your business and I'll go about mine
You: Yes I've encountered such arrogant opinions before among such "Live Help" so I don't use it
LH: Thank the lord!
You: Get stuffed
LH: Cheers man!

You: [negrate behaviour of LH] gift $25

In a follow-up IM, I pointed out that the fellow had given inaccurate information about the supposed "$195 island" and he writes me a PM saying "Man, are you still on my case?" Um...just who came up to WHOM here and started getting on somebody's CASE????

Now, let's dissect this, shall we? I'm sure there will scores of forum "fuck you and die"-hards who will say, yeah, Live Help rules, you suck, what a loser.

But...why the hell does Live Help get to *cross the street* and *come over on my property* and tell me *what they think about how I'm conducting my business on my property?* Um...don't they have some Live Helping to do? What, they are on their lunch break and go around and dispense their arrogant judgements to players based on their vast "mentor" experience?

What's wrong with this picture?

1. This guy doesn't have any clue about the land market, possibly because he's one of those tekkie content barons or whatever who never traded land and think there's something slimey about land dealing and doesn't realize that people are going to value these funny pixels on a sometimes-not-working server for their own reasons, and it's none of his business. The game allows you to charge whatever the hell you want and people can pay whatever the hell they want and they don't need Live Help to stick their oar in and comment from their superior arrogant oldbie land-poor content-rich position.
2. Linden Labs was more than happy to accept the same amount of money for that property as was asked for it in sale! ROFLMAO. So while Mr. Live Help may smugly tell you he doesn't think something is worth it, Linden Labs will take any and all US dollars in cash for the auctions as high as they go! And God bless them.
3. He makes the assumptions that no one could find any fault with his blessed game where he has the august position of Live Helper.
4. He gives INACCURATE information to the effect that you can buy a private sim island for only $195, when in fact that's just the TIER ALONE, and the island itself is $995, is it not? Or $795 if used, or whatever. But certainly not $195.
5. He arrogantly, in the usual fuck-you hedonistic manner of this class of older players, tells you of his "God-given right" to "freedom of expression," taunting you and telling you that if he isn't racist, and isn't slandering you, and isn't violating the TOS, he gets to be an asshole. Um, why? Isn't there something called ethics and politeness in customer service?
Oh, I'm arrogant, and he isn't? Well, that tell-tale "hah" of his ought to remove any doubt forever -- here's a fellow who thinks he is the ne-plus-ultra of SL, dispensing his mentory Live Help, crossing the street to tell you you're fucked up, when you didn't even call on him.
6. "I don't work for Linden Labs". Well, that beats all. You don't? What are you dispensing live help for then? You don't *work* or *get paid* but you sure as hell *volunteer for Linden Labs* because it is not PLAYERS who organized you but LL that solicits your volunteer help and organizes you. Any Live Help who behaves arrogantly and irresponsibly and says "I don't work for Linden Labs" as an escape clause ought to be taken out behind the wood shed. That shouldn't fly. There has to be some standard of conduct for people who play this role because it is something the company does organize -- because they don't want to pay wages for customer service, I guess.

I'm sorry to be here again pointing out that this arrogant, fuck-you, know-it-all attitude is a SERIOUS OBSTACLE IN THIS GAME. People pay real money, and invest real dollars, on this game. They need not arrogant, cocky asshole older players who dispense inaccurate and condescending and unsolicited advice, they need paid, professional customer service agents who are patient, kind, courteous, and refrain from judgements about personal and business matters of the clients.

What, the $8 million from the ebay guy couldn't buy some better customer service? And frankly, I didn't even ASK for customer service -- I rarely do anymore since I know that most of the serious problems of bugs on lots or in the game can't be helped by either Live Help or repeated bug reports. And once I get a guy saying "But that's not true" when I tell him my actual experience, I throw up my hands.

Yes, Live Help is just a way for the old-boys network to gain glory, to find their "apprentices" in their network, and in a word, keep this game to themselves so that it doesn't grow beyound the tekkie wiki, or as one poster here very aptly put it, "a small town that views all the new people as 'from away'.

Why am I posting all this? Knowing that 9/10s of the readers will slam me, hurl abuse at me, and take the side of Mr. Live Help? It's not because I had an unhappy childhood, or because I'm a bitter haunted TSO refugee unable to adapt, or anything of the sort, but because THIS ELITE ARROGANT ATTITUDE SUCKS AND NEEDS TO BE EXPOSED AND CHANGED.

What a complete asshat! (You, I mean.)

Good, now we're done with that, may I direct you to Ulrika Zigzag to buy the "Prokofy Asshat Hat" and to Toast Bard to buy all the relevant t-shirts with all the relevant slogans, and now maybe others can deal with the SUBSTANCE of this post rather than their own ass-milinary.

All that needs to be said.

Yep, keep it coming. I will outlast you all.

Ok, seriously? I have to assume that if you did any editing of the chat, you did it in your favor. Nevertheless, whoever you were talking to did an admirable job of keeping their cool while listening to your ranting at them.

I'm afraid they were not able to help you behave like a decent person.

OK, here's a civil response, Prokofy.

You overreacted. And then you posted about it. If there's any question here, it's "why did you do these things?"

Here's a follow-up, as civil as I can make it: Sometimes, you have interesting things to say. But then you take it to such an extreme that few people can understand, and even if they do, they are loathe to take your side. Again, "why?"

It's probably more a question of method than content.

Even LH know an asshat when they see one.

Anyone with the Live Help tag on shouldn't be making personal statements like what was said....they should also know that a sim costs $1k and the tier fee is $195 a month.

News at 11. Man in clown shoes can't figure out why people can't see it's the footwear of the future. Punches innocent bystander in anger.

~Ulrika~

Means he disagrees with how you are doing it, but isn't going to make an issue of it... which you are good enough to do for him, here...



Then he tries to get out of it by saying it's just his opinion, you're free to not like it, but he's free to give it, and again attempts to part ways amiably...




You say that this is an example of the attitudes amongst people in Live Help.... but you weren't using live help. This is someone who happened to be in it, giving his opinion as a fellow player, not as a Live Helper. The fact that his title was up is meaningless.

And since you constantly meet these kinds of people, and there are quite a few others who say that this is not a good example of what really happens in second life... perhaps you should step away for a moment and maybe consider that it is YOUR attitude that causes people to react this way? That "Well, best of luck with it." should have been the end of the conversation, but you decided that you had to make an issue of it and expand it way out of proportion.

"All things considered, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one."

What is more likely, that this guy is a member of an elite "group" in second life that has brainwashed all the populous and has grabbed hold of Live Help in an effort to further their nefarious cause.

Or, that this guy was just not very tactful about portryaing his personal opinions.

*shrugs*

OK, thank you for your civil response, Dallas, I always find your posts thoughtful and thought-provoking and reasonable.

I, too, am actually a reasonable and thoughtful person. I don't engage in "road rage" or fight with my neighbours or write long ranting letters to the editor in RL. So why do I do it on this forum in this game? Because I am absolutely convinced that I'm on to something, to a real obstacle for progress in this game, that hurts not just my game, but the whole game. Whatever hyperbole or exaggeration or assholery there might be in me in delivering this message, it's not my personal message, it's what others are saying with less "colour" and I am deliberately voicing it here in this manner, almost like a caricature, so that people can pay attention.

There's no question that people aren't thinking more now about how they interact with others in the game, and what "generation" or "class" they might fit into, and the ramifications of that for the game.

I think I maintained a cordial tone with this asshole from Live Help who came over to me --UNSOLICITED -- and expressed an arrogant opinion about the price set on my land. He was the only person in a week of discussions and an auction to question it -- and he, with a semi-official title.

Why should that stand? Strip out all my rhetoric and hone in JUST on what that guy said. Can you really agree that is appropriate? Of course not.

I don't ask readers to take my side. I merely place the transcript out here for people to see how arrogant some older players are, how undeservedly they bear the title of "mentor" or "Live Help" when their *only purpose* is to humiliate and hector younger players, trying to corral them into some perceived notion of how the game is "supposed to be" -- i.e. a game where all the children are above-average, never a discouraging word is heard, and land only costs $1 LL a square meter.

While I could have just kept this encounter to myself, or I could have just gone privately to a Linden about it, I think it's worth asking what people think. Can Live Help come unsolicited to you and dispense with a "hah!" type of comment about your gameplay? Is that appropriate? Why do they think they get to do that, and hide under the "free expression" banner?

I am absolutely confident, having run customer complaint desks myself, that if anyone from Linden Labs sees this transcript, they will be highly concerned. They will want to take action. It doesn't matter if Prokofy Neva is an asshat or overreacts. What matters is that this isn't right, LL knows it isn't right at some level, and they have to take some actions to improve the culture and climate.

First of all, yes, Live Help is a volunteer service.. none of the LHers are in any way affiliated with the Lindens any more than you are. We are simply a group you can turn to with questions. We are also not affiliated with the mentors, tho some happen to also be mentors.

Second, you weren't in a live help session, so why are you making this into a live help issue? This person (who I will not defend) has the title on because that is the only way that we can recieve and participate in Live Help discussions. If we turn off the title, we don't recieve the LH IM's.

I think the group of Live Helpers that just signed on for this rotation are a wonderful group of people... however, in every group of people, there will always be a bad apple. I have a feeling if you did ask LH a question, this person you speak of will be one that doesn't participate.

as for what you stated:

You: the Lindens don't help
You: the Live Help doesn't help

Is that based on your own experience or hearsay? The Lindens do help and Live Help is very limited in what we can do.. all we can do is talk you through helping yourself.

Just to avoid confusion: this message is not endorsed by live help, nor is it to be considered a live help session. This is just me stating my opinion.

Well, just to play devil's advocate....

A live helper doesn't really need to be saying anything to disparage an SLer or thier projects. Saying demeaning things to customers when you represent the company is stupid. I don't know who "LH" is, but I think it likely that if the Lindens find out who it is, they won't be "LH" much longer.

I haven't found Live Help to be particularly helpful either. Maybe my standards are too high, but typically, unless you are asking a really easy question, forget it. That's not to say that I don't think it's great that there are volunteers... it's awesome that people help out for free. But you should probably have a better understanding of the software before you support it. I'm sure there's a lot to know and everyone can't know everything, but the standards to get into LH are not high enough in my opinion.

When a volunteer is "on duty" wearing their Live Helper group affiliation, they should comport themselves accordingly.

It's not that I think there is a conspiracy. It's that I'm describing the arrogant behaviour of a select group of older players who have a know-it-all attitude about the game, who think it works a certain way, or should work a certain way, and who IMPOSE that opinion.

"What I do on my land" is supposed to be a sacrosanct concept here in SL.

And yet here's a guy who *crosses the water* to come tell me he thinks I'm "joking" if I set my price a certain way or if I don't "get it" that potential buyers could just go buy a private island. Well...why do Linden Labs create islands on the grid then? Maybe they should stop doing that?

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to concede that this is just a "personal opinion" issue. I am convinced that the person hid behind his elevated status as a "Live Helper" while on duty wearing that hat, to come and prod me about what HE thought was the "right way" to do things. If he didn't have the "Live Help" status, if he wasn't older and a content baron or whatever, he wouldn't have felt the temerity and arrogance to come up and set another person straight that way. The fact is, he was wrong on at least 2 counts. He's out of touch, and out of date with the actualities of the game. He's living in a time warp. But he's using his elevated position as a Live Helper and an older player to give grief. I think that can't stand without a pushback.

I'm supposed to just 'take it' and 'suck it up' when arrogant old boys come and try to set a newbie straight like this? Well, hell no, I won't go.

In this particular setting, regarding bugginess of private islands, I'm reporting what has been amply reported and discussed here on the forums by older players who really know what they're talking about, and whom I respect -- like Schwanson. Let them speak for themselves. Their problems are beyond Live Help of course.

AND in general, I'm speaking of my own experience. Example: when I contacted an older player on Live Help recently, I reported that hovering texts were dropping out of teleporters as soon as you clicked on it. While he was experienced, the Live Helper basically just shrugged and said "report it as a bug". That's often the stock response. I said: but reporting bugs doesn't solve the issue. Most bugs I report, including onces that have seriously, seriously hindered the game, just don't get a response (like the group settings issue). To which he said: "But that's not true."

Well, I thought of reporting it as a bug, but I suspected it was probably some easier problem when I saw a vendor with hover text in his object having no problems with hover text. And then another vendor tinkered with it, because he had the same problem, and discovered it was a clash of scripts resolved by removing one of them. I don't expect Live Help to make housecalls. I know they are only volunteers. I don't think they should use the stature of their position to make statements like "But that's not true" or "Hah! You're a laugh and a joke". That is not proper.

Well, I'm one of those volunteer Live Helpers, and thus to some degree qualified to give an opinion.

First, whoever the Live Helper was had no business getting involved in your conversation or dealing unless invited by you. That's clearly overstepping the bounds of Live Help as I understand it, and you might do well to report it to one of the Lindens.

That said, and I'm by no means defending their action, I have found myself many times wearing an inappropriate group title I had no idea I was wearing because I run with Avatar Names turned off for performance. It is quite likely this person had no idea they had their Live Help tag on, as I see no mention of Live Help until you mention it. In that case, they would be a regular citizen, free to speak their mind, albeit in a rather rude manner.

Second, your close-minded stereotyping of older players is equally as disrespectful as the intrusion into your private business dealings. I know many players, and Live Helpers, of all ages who go out of their way to render assistance when asked, or when it is obviously needed. They do so without injecting any of their own opinions or biases, something that, in this case, you were obviously unable to do.

Seems to me a bit of respect and tolerance on both sides might have been the answer here.

What stature or position? We don't get anything out of it other than friends wondering why we aren't paying attention when we get buried in LH IMs.

As for that person, sure he was rude. He shouldn't have laughed at you.. but you were doing most of the talking in the discussion.

Disclaimer for Profky: this is not a Live Help endorsed message. My opinion is my own.

hehehe quit while you're ahead Prokofy. he came up and made a bad joke and you had the maturity to go off at length and turn it into an issue then take it to the forums and post chat logs (against the TOS) then write a dissertation on it and defend your actions with paragraph after paragraph? let me kindly suggest you might be a lil bit touchy. time to relax.

I didn't do any editing of the chat, and I have screenshots and a cut-and-paste document as well.

I don't find *anything* admirable about somebody *crossing the ocean* to come tell you an opinion about how you are playing your game. And mind you, this isn't some guy who just flew by while forgetting he had on his "Live Help". When you're on duty in"Live Help" you're on duty, full stop. If you forget to take your hat off when you leave, I'm sorry, that doesn't fly, you have to be more considerate of your roles.

By saying "$500" this fellow revealed that in fact he was either reading a notecard or otherwise getting more involved in this affair than was appropriate. There was no price tag on the land itself.

I don't feel ANY requirement to be decent to somebody who intrudes in my business in this fashion with the typical arrogant attitude of that type of older player who thinks there is something illicit about land sales. Non passerant.

In fact, the record shows I was civil to him, I didn't swear at him, and I only told him to get stuffed (a mild retort) when he delivered me that febrile "free expression" tripe.

What this record shows is that a person fights back, and doesn't take this assholery lying down. They don't suck dick like so many others do in this newbie position. Full stop.

I've been known to ask questions of folks a lot younger to SL than I about things, especially with scripting.

It's interesting how in SL, the newbies belittle the oldbies.. where in most MMORPGs, the newbies are the ones getting a hard time. (overgeneralized to make a point)

Disclaimer: this is not a Live Help endorsed message. My opinion is my own.

Says who? You? Sorry, mister president, I didn't realize that you had taken over Philip's job as the head of LL.

Disclaimer: this is not a Live Help endorsed message. My opinion is my own.

So lemme get this straight...

You weren't using Live Help.

He wasn't there as a Live Helper (live helpers have to wear their tag any time they want to be able to help others in IM, so most never turn it off).

He made an offhand comment about the price of sims and you blow up in his face about it.

And now you're trying to act as if you're the wounded party?

Uh....

Yes, MATURITY is EXACTLY the word, and EXACTLY what I had -- the maturity and dignity to STAND UP to these kind of older players, whether they be 25 years younger than me IRL or not. Absolutely.

And I think the word you wanted to use hon was TEMERITY. It also has ITY on the end so it can be confusing. That's the word you meant -- unless you meant IMMATURITY. But I'll go with MATURITY

It's not against the TOS to post a chat log without names. It's my story. Let the Lindens discipline me if they must. If they want to add insult to injury after the bugs and the arrogant Live Helpers, let them do their worst.

Masterful Summary Moleculor.

Surreal