Is Religion allowed in School?

And without drama students, how would anyone learn about sexual reproduction?

Our kids may not be illiterate due to religion, but they do lack critical thinking skills and that is a direct result of being taught religion..

Religion is already taught in public schools, in social studies and history classes, where it belongs. If people don't think that's sufficient then I can only assume they want kids to be taught to practice relgion, not simply learn about it. They already do.

Our kids may not be illiterate due to religion, but they do lack critical thinking skills and that is a direct result of being taught religion. In order to teach faith, critical thinking must be discouraged. It's akin to teaching them to close their eyes before they cross the street instead of looking both ways.

Brother Chip,

Read the pertainate part again... The legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,"

Please note the legislature is the one being told what is their restrictions. It has nothing to do with state and local governments. The wall he spoke of is the wall keeping congress out of what people believe and do. The wall is one way. The constitution isn't meant to tell people what is ok or not. Education has historically been left to the local governments. Only recently has the Federal government stuck it's nose where it doesn't belong constitutionally. The constitution tells congress what congress is NOT allowed to do. The first amendment to the constitution is clearly directed at Congress and not the states.

Also, there were many authors to the constitution. Each has differing opinions, but only what is in the constitution is considered constitutional law, not their prior writings. The federalist papers give insight, but aren't the constitution.

btw, if a post appears to be silly or not seeking to further the discussion I'll ignore it. So as to not feed trolling.

That's bullcrap and you know it.

He doesn't know it and that's the problem.

~Ulrika~

Religious schools do a much better job teaching critical thinking skills, a bias from the left in the media causes people to accept the stereotype about religious people. The Left doesn't want to give up the strangle hold it has on the kids in school.

There were very few christians among the authors of the constitution. The god they invoke is the Deist god; the god of nature. I'll assume you don't know what Deism is so I'll enlighten you. Deists believe that there was a god who created the universe but then his work was finished and he has no further interest in the affairs of man, or the universe in general. The Deist god requires no worship or tribute.No judgement day. No heaven or hell. No anything. Deism is about as close to atheism as one can get while still believing in creationism. These were men of the enlightenment whose heads were swimming with the bold ideas of their day... science, philosophy, industry... had scientific theories about the origin of the universe and the evolution of species been at the point then that they are today you can bet that most of them would have been atheists.

James Madison is known as the "father of the constititution" so let's see what he has to say about Christianity...

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

I guess you could say he wasn't a fan Let's hear what he has to say on religion and its relevance to our system of government...

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

That seems pretty clear don't you think? Let's hear what he has to say about the separation of church and state...

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Let's hear what John Adams had to say on the subject of Christianity...

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

and on the role of religion in government...

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

Still think they intended us to be on bended knee in worship of some mythological god?

Here are some words from Benjamin Franklin on the subject...

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England."

His close friend, Dr. Priestly, wrote in his autobiography about his friend Franklin, ""It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers"

Here's more from Thomas Paine...

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. "

"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. "

Still think these guys intended us to be a nation "Under God"?
If so, don't you find it a bit odd that nowhere in the Constitution is there a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being? The Constitution contains only two references to religion, and both are exclusionary... The 1st Amendment's says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." and in Article VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

The famous letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists that has been used to support the intent of the establishment clause in every supreme court case on this subject states ""I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

I'm more inclined to take Jefferson's word on the intent of the establishment clause than I am to take the word of self serving religious people who have a bad habit of rewriting history to suit their own twisted worldview.

And before you spout anything about the bible being the foundation of western law, I'll address that too... Western law is based on Saxon common law. Saxon common law was in existance for more than 200 years before Christianity was even introduced among the Saxons.

Thomas Jefferson elaborates...

"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.

". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

Is there any system of beliefs that should be allowed to be taught in public schools?

Umm, Kurgan, it was written by the primary author of the establisment clause describing what he meant by the establishment clause. Duh?

Chip, if it was important enough (and agreeable enough) to those who wrote the constitution, do you honestly believe that they would not have included it? Or even amended it if they thought the language to vague?

And these same framers of the Constitution wrote and voted on a treaty of tripoli (1797) which was signed by President John Adams that said the United States is not or never was a Christian state.

Chip, if it was important enough (and agreeable enough) to those who wrote the constitution, do you honestly believe that they would not have included it? Or even amended it if they thought the language to vague?

Chip,

Please don't suggest the founders ever suggested children not be taught about God and religion. If that is indeed what you are suggesting, post the exact quotes. Regardless of how some of the framers believed, none of them suggested knowledge of God shouldn't be included in a well rounded education. At that time they all were schooled in religion and the idea of a creator. If they thought it wrong, they would have said so.

Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:
The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).

Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli only lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the U.S. government.

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Kurgan, I don't mean this to sound snarky. I'm quite sincere. People like you scare me. It doesn't matter how much evidence you're presented with. It doesn't matter that the author of the establishment clause says in no uncertain terms what the intent was. It doesn't matter that the so-called "father of the Constitution" found Christianity repugnant. It doesn't matter that this country was founded by people escaping from a Christian nation. You'll continue to believe whatever it is you want to believe. That's dangerous, and disturbing, and exactly why religion should NOT be taught in public schools. This is what I mean by its detriment to critical thinking skills. I find it chilling.

I am not a lawyer but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn once...I think.

In fact, I'm rather surprised that anyone religious would accept their religious text to be shown in a school environment, by someone not a preacher nor an apologist.