Drama around Views program - Maybe just a big misunderstanding?

It's very refreshing to see someone have a more balanced view of the customer/company relationship.

One thing that I'd like to point out is that for many of LL's customers who have been one for a long time (myself included, though I missed the beta period by only a matter of days), is that for many we've experienced that LL has only listened to those customers that socialize or otherwise reside in the general vicinity of their presence. For those of us who reside in other social circles, trying to provide feedback to LL (or getting them to even listen) is akin to talking to a wall.

LL has shown themselves to operate their feedback system like little more than a social club. If you're in, then you're in. If you're out, well....you might as well not exist. Based on looking at the list of names on the 'chosen ones' list, I'm further convinced of LL's inability to see past the end of their noses.

- Newfie

What if one of your "early-adopting" customers offered an add-on to your subscription service that you came to see as a potential source of additional revenue for yourself? Could you not see yourself developing your own version of such a user-developed service? If you had the added bonus of a TOS allowing your company to cancel memberships at any time with any or no reason, you could ensure your new "official" version was the only one your members could use!

Are you *that* loyal to your charter members?

I've stayed in SL for 3+ years and I think that LL can't see past the ends of their own noses.

They ignore me at Wal-Mart too, but I keep going back.

That's how "jaded" I am.

I ignore LL and Wal-Mart and muddle along OK.

I am curious how you know that LL is only listening to the opinons of a select few in their inner circle. How do you know that your opinion is not listened to versus that of someone else? Do you know where every decision comes from and who affected it? Is P2P Aimee Weber's doing? Surely I had something to do with Email Postcards, right? Flipper was all over the whole HTTP thing because it benefits SLB. You caught us! I think you give LL not nearly enough credit, and this imaginary magical inner star chamber way too much power. If LL only listens to their input, why is the ResMod program still around? It was categorically panned across the board when it was introduced, yet LL pressed ahead (and we still have to deal with several people who clearly should not be resmods). Why are so many things about SL still fundamentally broken? Surely the cool kids could have gotten LL to do their bidding by now, don't ya think?

Perhaps it is you who can't see beyond your own bias. Either put up or shut up, honestly. So much of this stuff is hyperbole. LL only listens to the cool kids, FIC this, special perks that, blah blah fucking blah. Linden Lab is going to do what is best for their company at the end of the day, the rest of all of us be damned. All of this nefarious shadowy bullshit does absolutely nothing except harbor a divisive environment of different classes of people. We are all customers, we all have equal ability to get the attention of LL. If suspending Anshe Chung's account doesn't show that no one is beyond reproach, I don't know what does. The rest of it just honestly plays out like sour grapes over and over again.

Yeah, because they put Anshe, Jenna, and IGE out of business. Oh wait... they didn't. Someone got mad, took their toys and went home.

Just thought someone who wasn't around for all that might like to read an alternate take on it.

Truth is, you could have kept running it. You could have added other services - hell - you had a jumpstart on others, what with a loyal customer base and a recognized and trusted website.

Oh well. Soliciting pity indefinately works better for some, I guess.

Sure. And what happens when our mule avatar gets banned/its balance erased? We get stuck holding the bag, that's what. "Sorry guys, it's in the TOS that we can do whatever we want. Too bad."

Thanks, but no thanks.

They are going to do what they THINK is best, not what IS best.

I really want people to get over this, but you make it really hard.

You want people to get over what? No one ever knows what is best, they do what they think is best - what is best is subjective, but it is up to LL to decide that.

As a matter of fact one of our early customers did such a thing about 18 months ago. We thought what she was doing was cool and while we could have done it ourselves why should we? It was more beneficial to us and her to make her services known to our subscribers. She was able to establish a business for herself and we were able to say "check out XYZ for more cool addons". It was win-win all around.

If you want details and such please feel free to IM me in world. I don't think this is the apprpriate place for me to mention any specifics about my company because that would be akin to advertising and I'd also like not to have my SL presence tied to my work.

Ok.

Exhibit #1 - the 'chosen ones' list. Not a single one on that list is a person what would be considered a person of the past-the-end-of-the-Lindens'-noses persuasion. In addition, not a single one is a new customer, or one that would be considered a true unbiased viewpoint (and yes, I did say that).

If I honestly thought LL wanted a realistic set of feedback from the userbase, then there would be at least one person on the list that either had a dissenting viewpoint, or got to where they were outside of the limited social circle of the Lindens. I'm not saying that the people selected aren't some of the more successful and deserving people on the list (as they are), but that LL has once again shown their narrow and limited view of the SL universe.

But hey - what do I know? I'm just have an opinion that doesn't do the LL-is-great-LL-is-wonderful mantra. Please feel free to ignore my comments, I'm used to it by now.


- Newfie

Well, gee whiz! You've partially restored my faith in online service providers!

LOL, I am not evil...only my avie wears a t-shirt that says I am

You mean to say that replicating a user-developed service for your own gain would have been evil?

I want people to get over this silly hand wringing, however the stance of some experienced residents that I am supposed to believe will be helpful to LL is terribly smug about their position and don't really want to give credence to honest concerns. It doesn't help to convince fence-sitters that these people will be able to make solid, professional assessments about the future of the product.

I have said before that LL should make their own decisions and are welcome to them. I worry that maybe they should hire some full time help rather than get more input from the same old chattel. Not much here has changed my mind.

Nope, that was merely a pithy wittisicm and, I guess, a poor attempt at humour to lighten up a heavy thread. It was not intended to be a remark directed at any particular person or LL. Sorry.

see this is what throws me cocoa. Let's say they did what you say here, and picked the same people? Do you think the same furor would not have occurred? Of course it would have!

Personally, I don't see the difference between LL getting specific applications and picking a few people versus them looking at EVERYONE and picking a few people.

Scratch that -- actually I do see the difference, and I prefer the latter. For example, Cat Omega would never ever have applied, but personally I think it is in LL's interest to have a heart-to-heart with someone who is extremely smart, extremely grounded, has been here since the beginning, and has a balanced view of LL and the decisions they've made over the years.

Hoping that people somehow read the right forum thread, hear about the thing, and respond with an application might be even more limiting that just looking at your entire user base.

Newsflash - all viewpoints are biased. There is no such thing as an unbiased viewpoint. As far as the list, do you know each person and what their views are?

again, why all the fuss? this is one input among many. Do people honestly think that LL is now going to ensconce themselves behind the chinese wall with only these 8 people to act as the holy writ? c'mon now!

nothing wrong with trying different ways to listen...

Who exactly from the group picked have you seen be smug about their position, or not want to give credence to honest concerns? I think you are damning the people on the list by what others have said.

As far as the list, since my opinion on the Lindens is based on their social pastimes, I went to the Linden haunts and watched for a few hours. Only took me a couple nights to personally see each person on the list in a social setting with at least one Linden nearby.

Hence, my assertion about LL and the end of their noses.


- Newfie

I'm not damning the list members and no I haven't seen a thing from them, but didn't feel I could write that since I don't really know.

Excellent point, however. I am speaking in general about the lot of people that are lumped together. I do not begrudge them or even think the situation is bad (despite my personal sense of the business decision). I am trying to point out that further discussion along the lines as this thread has been going only serve to widen the divide, which I don't think anyone really cares for. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people don't give a shit about the overall health of the community. I'm just saying that I expect more from all of us, but that has to be led from the top, as there is no gain for the bottom to toe the line behaviorally speaking.

What-eva. I'm going to drink some gin, create an alt and blow up some rental units I've been eyeing.

When exactly did you see me in a social setting with at least one Linden nearby, Newfie?

(Just got to know because someone seems to control my AV while I am a the office. )

Tsk tsk...how and where I got my info I'll never tell....sometimes one needs to use an alt. Giving away specifics would also give away info.

Suffice it to say, I am feeling very comfortable with my statement, and will stand by it.


- Newfie

Jopsy, you are over-thinking.


Very interesting thoughts, and I stopped earlier to read it again and write this response:

Ok, you understand my point of view, and you understand the opposing point of view. I'm now going to elaborate on my point of view, vis-a-vis your comments.

Any "red tape" isn't really as god-awful as you would think. You would think a major national magazine would get skads of letters to the editor, or even skads of responses to an offer, or a call out for something. They don't. You'd think a major article would generate skads of mail, but it doesn't.

Similarly, anything in SL where work is involved doesn't get nearly the response we workaholics might like to think it would. Even a trip to San Francisco and all the wining and dining and attention and power and what-not doesn't really appeal to as many people as you or I might think - it does involve work, commitment, social skills, and deep knowledge of SL.

Consequently, the requests for consideration would probably not be nearly as dramatically numerous as you might expect. Even if they were, if the application process required presenting yourself (as the DD does), half the people wouldn't want to bother and the other half would be too intimidated. You know how that works.

(As for the ones who would be good but too shy, a problem Forsetti pointed out, nothing is to stop LL from encouraging them to apply. If they still didn't, then they really aren't material for it anyway.)

So what are we talking about? We are talking about one or two Lindens to go through some applications. Most can hit the cylindrical file right away. Some would be people they already know and want, who have furthermore taken the extra step of going to the work to be considered, so their commitment can be better assured than it would be otherwise. A few would be those pleasant surprises I talked about. OPTIONS. People that make them think and go, huh! This is interesting! This person sounds like he might be good!

Options which you can't have if you don't open up the process.

The end decision still belongs to the Lindens, and no explanation is necessary (as when applying for a job). Nothing will stop them from still getting all the people they originally wanted.

Yes, people will doubtless gripe about who's chosen (or whether or not such an exercise is even any good). But there is FAR less opportunity to gripe about people when everyone had the chance to be considered - officially considered, presenting themselves with the care they would present for the Developer's Directory.

There is much more opportunity (and reason) to gripe about the people when they Lindens just touch them with their magic glove and declare them chosen.

The putting out of a call and processing the applications simply not as large-scale or costly as you might think. And the benefits of doing it, both long-range and short, far outweigh any small cost involved.

It's a big world, and just being in it and doing good work in it, and having cogent thoughts and ideas to present, doesn't mean that the Lindens are going to notice you, or take advantage of what you have to offer them.

The fact that the world has grown so much is precisely why it is so critical to institute these procedures to make things officially-available opportunities for everyone, and the sooner the better. And in a case like this - where people actually are given the opportunity to mold SL, in a quasi-government fashion - it's critical.

And yes, the Lindens will still be able to get in all their known entity choices, the ones they really, really want to hear from. Seeing who ELSE is out there is a win-win situation for all. (And better than this random pick idea, of touching the glove to a completely unknown entity.)

This just isn't a closed office business. This is a world, and you are either a paid Linden or you are a resident/customer, and the Lindens should accept that fact. (In more ways than one.)

Precisely because it isn't a small world anymore - and because it actually is a "world" where people, customers, residents, live a part of their lives, do business in, and are affected by everything that happens within (we're not just customers buying their Kleenex to take home and sneeze into) - it is vital that those customers be taken into consideration, especially with something like this that will affect us all.

Whether or not having a board of permanent advisors is a good idea, one thing is certain: The opportunity needs to be available to all, or the criticism will not cease, but grow.

Another idea: To divide this board of advisors into categories. For example, one group could be selected to meet on economic issues. Another on technical things. And a third and fourth on technical things. Then one about entertainment and events. Etc.

Those who applied for consideration could check off their areas of interest, and specify why they would be good choices for this area.

coco