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Drama around Views program - Maybe just a big misunderstanding?

Devlin Gallant
Thought Police
Join date: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 5,948
06-16-2006 09:57
I don't understand. Why do the folks who are against this come off as sounding like jealous little schoolkids who didn't get on the dodge ball team? :confused:
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
06-16-2006 10:12
From: FlipperPA Peregrine
Wow! In my almost three years here, I've never seen Chip get snippy with anyone other than Prokofy. Congrats, Lewis; you've managed to achieve something I didn't think possible with your arrogant self-rightousness. Welcome to that club of two.


Be careful, or I might really piss you off and turn up at your little party.

Lewis
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pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
06-16-2006 10:25
From: Lewis Nerd
Be careful, or I might really piss you off and turn up at your little party.

Lewis


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~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media



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~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
06-16-2006 10:28
You forget he mentioned me, too, Flipper!

But I didn't take it as snippy - more as aggravated but teasing.

I've been thinking about this - partly in terms of Cristiano. He tends to really dive totally off the deep end at the term "FIC," which distresses me, and so do lots of you.

The reasons for that are many and complex, and it's not my job to parse them, nor do I care to analyze them here or at any time.

But that is why I have avoided the use of the term "FIC" for a year or so now. It is so heavily laden for so many of you as personal attacks, which it isn't. As indictments of your talent and abilities, which it also isn't.

I have found other (wordier) ways in the past year of pointing to the same phenomena - which to me means: LL privileging some with perks, privileges and opportunities that are not opportunities available to all. And there are other ways of saying that without using the term "FIC."

But I have used the term feted inner core purposely in terms of this "Second Life Views" thing because it exactly epitomizes those words, more exactly than anything else that has ever gone before:

A group of hand-picked individuals chosen to be on a permanent advisory committee who will forevermore have LL's special ear and help LL run SL, with the vast majority of the population excluded: Inner Core.

Who will be flown to San Francisco and be wined and dined: Feted.

The elevating of select residents to a special class of residents, with special power and influence, perks and privileges, that no other resident is allowed.

So I'm willing to put up with the fallout from using the term in this case because it is an exact description of it.

"Second Life Views" is the epitome of all that's wrong with this method of running a world. You not only should, but can, run things without this limiting selectivity, bias, and favoritism, all founded on an erroneous philosophy of elitism.

Similarly, I have listened to criticism for daring to call those chosen, "The Chosen Ones," as that has a negative connotation. But they are - actually and exactly - "the chosen ones." Thus the pejorative clearly lies not in the aptly descriptive words, but in the process they describe.

As for being jealous - I'm with Ordinal on that. Y'all really ought to bark up another tree there.

coco
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
06-16-2006 10:40
From: Cocoanut Cookie
You forget he mentioned me, too, Flipper!

But I didn't take it as snippy - more as aggravated but teasing.

I've been thinking about this - partly in terms of Cristiano. He tends to really dive totally off the deep end at the term "FIC," which distresses me, and so do lots of you.


Your friend Prokofy has spent more than a year relentlessly bashing many of us with that term, saying that we don't deserve our success, that we are corrupt, blah blah fucking blah in manifesto after manifesto. You don't get to pretend it is not a slur. It very much is one, and it is offensive. It is a divisive term, and the fact that you have held off from using it shows that even you recognize that. Why you are backtracking now is beyond me. Much the same way that gay people have taken the word queer and made it their own, the very group of people you try to marginalize with the term FIC has made a joke out of it, because the whole notion is absurd, as is the originator of the term.
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pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
06-16-2006 10:46
From: Cristiano Midnight
Your friend Prokofy has spent more than a year relentlessly bashing many of us with that term, saying that we don't deserve our success, that we are corrupt, blah blah fucking blah in manifesto after manifesto. You don't get to pretend it is not a slur. It very much is one, and it is offensive. It is a divisive term, and the fact that you have held off from using it shows that even you recognize that. Why you are backtracking now is beyond me. Much the same way that gay people have taken the word queer and made it their own, the very group of people you try to marginalize with the term FIC has made a joke out of it, because the whole notion is absurd, as is the originator of the term.


Please excuse the smell... I just feted. :(
_____________________
"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."

~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media



"That's no good. Someone is going to take your place as SL's cutest boy while you're offline."

~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
06-16-2006 11:02
From: Cristiano Midnight
Your friend Prokofy has spent more than a year relentlessly bashing many of us with that term, saying that we don't deserve our success, that we are corrupt, blah blah fucking blah in manifesto after manifesto. You don't get to pretend it is not a slur. It very much is one, and it is offensive. It is a divisive term, and the fact that you have held off from using it shows that even you recognize that. Why you are backtracking now is beyond me. Much the same way that gay people have taken the word queer and made it their own, the very group of people you try to marginalize with the term FIC has made a joke out of it, because the whole notion is absurd, as is the originator of the term.

Just one comment:

I don't try to marginalize any group of people.

coco
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Devlin Gallant
Thought Police
Join date: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 5,948
06-16-2006 11:07
I prefer Fetid.
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Maxx Monde
Registered User
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,848
06-16-2006 11:22
From: Cocoanut Cookie
Just one comment:

I don't try to marginalize any group of people.

coco


Yeah, you just blindly parrot the one who does.

Good job!
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
06-16-2006 11:22
From: Cocoanut Cookie
Just one comment:

I don't try to marginalize any group of people.

coco


Except for when you do. I mean if you don't intend to marginalize any group of people then tell me what the hell the point was for the "Chosen Ones" thread? Just calling it "chosen ones" marginalizes that group whether you intend to or not.
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pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
06-16-2006 11:24
From: Maxx Monde
Yeah, you just blindly parrot the one who does.

Good job!


MAXXimum Burn!
_____________________
"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."

~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media



"That's no good. Someone is going to take your place as SL's cutest boy while you're offline."

~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
06-16-2006 11:45
From: Cocoanut Cookie
Just one comment:

I don't try to marginalize any group of people.

coco


Whether you are trying to or not is beside the point - you are having that effect. You know what they say about intentions. You starting the "Chosen Ones" thread was divisive, and served no purpose except to marginalize those on the list. Like or not, that is what you are doing, whatever your intentions may be.
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
06-16-2006 11:50
From: Lewis Nerd
Be careful, or I might really piss you off and turn up at your little party.

You wouldn't be invited to a party I throw. However, since the Convention you're referring to is run by a team of many and open to anyone in the community, feel free to show up! Prokofy did last year. That doesn't mean he's not a ranting lunatic, but shows that we allow everyone to participate.

-Flip
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FlipperPA Peregrine
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Join date: 14 Nov 2003
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06-16-2006 11:54
From: Cristiano Midnight
Your friend Prokofy has spent more than a year relentlessly bashing many of us with that term, saying that we don't deserve our success, that we are corrupt, blah blah fucking blah in manifesto after manifesto. You don't get to pretend it is not a slur. It very much is one, and it is offensive. It is a divisive term, and the fact that you have held off from using it shows that even you recognize that. Why you are backtracking now is beyond me. Much the same way that gay people have taken the word queer and made it their own, the very group of people you try to marginalize with the term FIC has made a joke out of it, because the whole notion is absurd, as is the originator of the term.

Very well said Cristiano. While most of us treat Prokofy's inane rantings humorously - I honestly giggle at most of the assertations and conspiracy theories - that humorous result is achieved in a fashion similar to the gay community absconding with the word "queer". It was originally an insult created by bigots, and in good humor, taken by the gay community to remove its negative power.

That doesn't mean that the original bigotry of the people involved using the term "queer" before the gay community made it their own aren't total assholes, however.

Regards,

-Flip
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
06-16-2006 12:05
From: FlipperPA Peregrine
You wouldn't be invited to a party I throw. However, since the Convention you're referring to is run by a team of many and open to anyone in the community, feel free to show up! Prokofy did last year. That doesn't mean he's not a ranting lunatic, but shows that we allow everyone to participate.


That was the little party I was referring to.

Lewis
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Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
06-16-2006 12:11
From: pandastrong Fairplay
Please excuse the smell... I just feted. :(


Can't take you anywhere.
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FlipperPA Peregrine
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Join date: 14 Nov 2003
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06-16-2006 12:18
From: Lewis Nerd
That was the little party I was referring to.

Did you read my post? I made it abundantly clear that I got what you were referring to, although it certainly isn't "little" and is a lot more than a "party". Your attempts to insult it are quite appreciated, however. I must be on the right track.

-Flip
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
06-16-2006 12:23
From: FlipperPA Peregrine
Did you read my post? I made it abundantly clear that I got what you were referring to, although it certainly isn't "little" and is a lot more than a "party". Your attempts to insult it are quite appreciated, however. I must be on the right track.

-Flip


its actually quite Huge Massive Even oh wait you were talking about the SLCC weren't you. :p
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
06-16-2006 12:26
From: FlipperPA Peregrine
Did you read my post? I made it abundantly clear that I got what you were referring to, although it certainly isn't "little" and is a lot more than a "party". Your attempts to insult it are quite appreciated, however. I must be on the right track.

-Flip


Don't worry, you're quite safe, getting there alone would cost me over $1200 let alone the convention fees itself.

This time, anyway.

Lewis
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Demian Caldera
..ya, that too...
Join date: 8 Jun 2004
Posts: 249
06-16-2006 12:27
From: Jonquille Noir
I think people are forgetting the important questions in all the arguing and whining.

Will the FIC titles be handed over to the new group in a beauty pageant style crowning, or can we hope for some kind of grudge matches where Aimee and Cristiano have to wrestle Pham and Kex to defend their title belts, and Jennyfur and Flipper go in tag-team style against Catherine and Oz?


Exactly! Stay tuned for a sneak preview of the new fall season of "The Return of the FIC - The Next Generation"! Soon at a SL theatre near you! Free popcorn and SL Coke for everybody!

From: Jonquille Noir
Have a good time in San Francisco. It's a beautiful city. (Take a sweater.)


I second that. Congrats to the "chosen ones"! Have a blast! :D
pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
06-16-2006 12:28
From: Lewis Nerd
Don't worry, you're quite safe, getting there alone would cost me over $1200 let alone the convention fees itself.

This time, anyway.


Lewis


+4 Evil Villian pts.
_____________________
"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."

~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media



"That's no good. Someone is going to take your place as SL's cutest boy while you're offline."

~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
06-16-2006 12:34
From: Lewis Nerd
Don't worry, you're quite safe, getting there alone would cost me over $1200 let alone the convention fees itself.

Ah, but maybe you'll be one of the lucky eight selected for SL Views 2: Electric Boogaloo (fully paid!) due to your winning ideas, positive attitude and selfless nature!

Wouldn't that be the most delicious little piece of irony ever?

Regards,

-Flip
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
06-16-2006 13:04
From: Cocoanut Cookie
I have found other (wordier) ways in the past year of pointing to the same phenomena - which to me means: LL privileging some with perks, privileges and opportunities that are not opportunities available to all. And there are other ways of saying that without using the term "FIC."

But I have used the term feted inner core purposely in terms of this "Second Life Views" thing because it exactly epitomizes those words, more exactly than anything else that has ever gone before:

A group of hand-picked individuals chosen to be on a permanent advisory committee who will forevermore have LL's special ear and help LL run SL, with the vast majority of the population excluded: Inner Core.

Who will be flown to San Francisco and be wined and dined: Feted.

The elevating of select residents to a special class of residents, with special power and influence, perks and privileges, that no other resident is allowed.

So I'm willing to put up with the fallout from using the term in this case because it is an exact description of it.

"Second Life Views" is the epitome of all that's wrong with this method of running a world. You not only should, but can, run things without this limiting selectivity, bias, and favoritism, all founded on an erroneous philosophy of elitism.

Similarly, I have listened to criticism for daring to call those chosen, "The Chosen Ones," as that has a negative connotation. But they are - actually and exactly - "the chosen ones." Thus the pejorative clearly lies not in the aptly descriptive words, but in the process they describe.

As for being jealous - I'm with Ordinal on that. Y'all really ought to bark up another tree there.
coco


However you dress it up, the FIC is fiction. The situation you keep beating to death is a sound business practice and the normal desire for people to associate with pleasant and competent people.

This group is a done deal.

As I suggested to Lewis (and Torley mentioned too) if you really think there is a better way (1) write it up (2) communicate it appropriately - not the forums (3) make sure it aligns with LL's business goals and brings quantifiable value to their bottom line.

That last one is a kicker. Some folks seem to have a hard time grasping that for your goal to succeed, it has to work with LL's goals. All the hot-forum-air in the world won't change anything. And telling them how wrong, stupid and unethical they are probably won't get you anywhere either.

I would think by now you would have figured that ranting about it in the forums gets you nothing but negative feeback. If you want change, then you'll pursue something productive. If you simply want attention, then you'll continue in your current path.

I would endorse you using FIC if it means it will replace paragraphs and paragraphs of words that mean FIC... just in the interests of saving time.
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Joannah Cramer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,539
06-16-2006 13:30
From: FlipperPA Peregrine
And for those wondering, Cat Omega was in world for a full year before Aimee came to town, and had already become known amongst scripters as a goddess among us.

Going completely off-tangent, is there some places in SL where one can see practical displays of these supernatural powers? i saw the movement helper thingie on sale in Midnight City, but figuring surely there's more than that out there, if one knows where to look ^^;;;
FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
06-16-2006 13:48
From: Joannah Cramer
Going completely off-tangent, is there some places in SL where one can see practical displays of these supernatural powers? i saw the movement helper thingie on sale in Midnight City, but figuring surely there's more than that out there, if one knows where to look ^^;;;

http://secondlife.com/badgeo/wakka.php?wakka=CatherineOmega

http://secondlife.com/badgeo/wakka.php?wakka=HomePage

^--- She's largely responsable for bringing that whole brilliant scripting wiki to life (see the Owner field at the bottom). :)

Regards,

-Flip
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