Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Main Forum Thread

I agree as I explained yesterday how easily it would be to work around

You will have a better chance of achieving that goal if you restrict your comments to that goal, and if you can demonstrate harm caused by public displays of slavery.

It may also help if you would keep in mind the fact that even if you manage to convince Linden Labs that the Gorean life-style is obscene, that won't prevent Gorean products coming up on searches for Native-American products, unless the Gorean products themselves are directly obscene.

They're not going to be able to determine it, if there's an AR Linden A will see it as private whereas Linden B will see it as public because people could cam in or open a door.

They're wasting time trying to define what can't be defined. This whole plan will not float in its present form and it's about time Linden Lab stopped fannying around. Build a PG continent, let people voluntarily move to the adult continent and take it from there. They will never be able to truly define adult content or public and private space.

Nany Kayo, are you still posting random crusading 'votes'? Where's the list of items you'd like to propose that I've specifically requested from you, without resorting to interpersonal attacks, suggesting clear and present changes you think would help the policy you so espouse? I produced a seven point list. Where's yours?

(Edit: Here's that list again, Nany... where's yours?)

1) Phase out "Free" accounts. SLOWLY.

2) Implement a "Trial" account; Creating one requires payment information. It has restrictions (May only build in "Trial" areas; No more grief alts coming in without retribution, has only a limited L$ balance, may only recall Library objects from inventory and cannot rez its own inventory-stored creations until it's not 'Trial' anymore), but loses all restrictions when an arbitrary fee is paid through its payment info, with a clear message for credit statements/whatever of "Second Life 18+ Verification" or similar.

3) Leave existing PG definitions alone. Leave existing Mature definitions alone. Create a new 'XTREME' definition which throws the content restrictions entirely out the window; Defining them is impossible. You can't define "obscene" or "adult" or "violent" or even "sexual" from one culture to the next. Mature is fine as it is for "adult" and "sexual" and "violent". Relegate "obscene" and everything else not acceptable to TOS into a wholly voluntary "XTREME" category. Leave "XTREME" to private estates; We pay $295 a month for glorified server hosting. Therefore, the account is our problem as we're the paying provider to our private users in our private space.

4) Redefine the estate owner's agreement to leave responsibility for policing estate hosted content to estate owners. You're on your own, it's your world and your imagination.

5) Phase out old blocks of mainland. Phase in a PG continent and an M continent, or at least make geographical divides. It's been proven the two don't coexist and G-Team doesn't effectively enforce either definition.

6) Phase out Aristotle IDV. Integrity has no integrity. Rely on TOS and the above-mentioned "YOU ARE BUYING ADULT SERVICES" message on a billing statement. TOS is legally binding and should be more than enough on its own to absolve LL of legal action.

7) For the love of pete, stop trying to brand us professionals as the ones who want this. We want it less than the majority of your userbase because it stands a very real chance of damaging even non-L$-economy businesses seeking a place in SL.

You are an idiot, and off-topic : )

More strange bedfellows. lol I suppose that has been one good thing about this situation. Goreans providing a safe haven for Dommes. Saxons and Celts standing together side by side... if my grandfather were still alive I'd be getting cursed in a lanuage that is nearly extinct for standing with a Saxon. ;-P

This is one of the things I love most about SL.

"Pot, come in pot, this is kettle! You are black!"

Nany, please keep your discussion on-topic; This is not a forum about how Native Americans go on prudery-campaigns when they see a flag displayed incorrectly. If you want to contribute to this discussion in a positive way, contribute intelligent and well-thought-out guidelines that the Lindens should enforce by.

Please, begin to define "Adult".

What is "advertising" though? Just listing something in search?

My forest/home is on a road and right near a store with a freebie shop .... so a lot of people going to the store think my land is a public area. I am not advertising my plot as a public area, but is the assumption by people that it is and being near a traffic draw make it that way anyways?

I think it's pretty reasonable. If someone is going for the residence exemption, it shouldn't be listed in search anyway, because listing a place in search means you want people to find it and thus it is not a personal space. Sure, there are ways people can "get around it" to advertise it exists, but if you have to go to a lot of effort to do it, how many strangers are likely to stumble across it anyway? If it's not in search, and there's no classified ad, but you have a group, for instance, that you allow to use your equipment, well, it's still not really a public space, is it?

caught up again... couple of points

1. stop feeding the troll people... seriously. It's probably rolling on the floor in laughter as it antagonizes everybody.

2. DEAR LINDENS, please give me links to where I can sign up to move my content that I deem needs moved myself. For those who have questions about what's black, white and gray how about giving them at least some measure to start looking and and whittling that down to workable measures.

Selkit Diller,

thanks, I am in general agreement with the changes as outlined in LL's faq attached to the original blog post.

I agree with their reasoning and their goals. I appreciate the opportunity for input they have provided, and am happy to see that there is SL staff monitoring and contributing to the forum with quesitons and comments, a couple of which I have responded to.

My additional suggestions on the change are primarily that the rules be clearly defined and fully enforced. I would also argue that depictions of overtly sexual or violent slavery should not be in casual public view.

I'm interested in other specific implementation details, but they aren't important to me and I haven't been paying much attention to the discussion of them. I don't consider protection of the sex industry in Second Life very important. I think it will survive the change in policy. I trust Linden Lab's judgement that there will not be much money lost on moving it out of public view.

I agree with Linden Lab that explicit sexual content detracts from and discourages business and educatonal uses of Second Life. It makes sense to me that it would, and I see it happen in practical terms to my own enterprise in SL.

Is it really necessary to list the blog faq? It's pretty easy to find.

This is really going to kill sl as it is. Sorry but if SL is going to go ahead with this, then why not close entire internet all together, cause this will happen anywhere!
Yahoo did not close.
Msn did not close.
ICQ did not close.
And all this happend there just as well, worse even, it happend there WITH actual webcams and children were 'seduced' to put it on and show themselfs!
SL is a game, and the big hit is just because of all the assets that are available there!
Locking off the adult content will just move all those adults that can not enter them any longer some where else and it will just start all over again. If the problem is known, then make sure that it is watched, not closed cause that makes that the overview is lost and it makes just that the ones that want to prevent it have to relocate all the perverts that are out there all over again.
Want to solve the perversity? Then take internet away all together, toss out the television, lock off phones, guide your children by the hand to school and collect them by the hand back home again. Lock them up in their rooms and do not let them out untill their 18 years! And in all honousty... Even with 18 people do get abused in sexual ways. So if you want to get rid of sexual abuse all together... If a sexoffender is picked up? Don't lock them away for just a couple of years... evacuate them to a far off place and never let them out again. Simple. But does the goverment do that? Noooo cause even sexoffenders have rights... right? Apperantly. Well all i can say is... I am really bloody angry for this decition. Children rule the world! And i have nothing against children but this is really to stupid for words! If children rule the world this way... Then shoot all the adults cause hey we have lost the right to BE adults!
We do like our game. And YES there will be nudity, and sex, and shocking BDSM even! THAT is reality people. What about all the places where kids are tought to shoot others up? What does this mean? Hmmm? That hey it is no problem that you shoot some one up cause they stand up five minutes later anyway. So is that okay? Why not take all the shoot them up pages off the internet as well then? And while we are at it, do not sell Sims2 any longer cause heavens forbid there is suggestive play in there that children are made in elevators and cars!!! Shooooocking!!!
Come on... Watch your children and do not give them a computer that is totally for them to use! But leave the games allone if there are adults playing there!
Thank you very much.

Simply agreeing with the blog FAQ is not enough; This is a discussion forum, Nany Kayo. You've already stated you agree, and you've already stated you're not for protectionism. I do wish you luck in pushing forward an extremely unpopular view that even I (Without involvement in adult business) do not espouse. As an educator, you yourself should know that censorship is an extremely dangerous, slippery slope (Do you remember the anti-intellectual pogroms in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia? Those began because they discovered they can't censor minds). As a result, I cannot support you and your views, and must demand once again that you produce relevant discussion;

Specific points, specific modes of implementation. Otherwise, we've heard your cheerleading, and raise the ante to "real suggestions". Once more, I reiterate my list.

1) Phase out "Free" accounts. SLOWLY.

2) Implement a "Trial" account; Creating one requires payment information. It has restrictions (May only build in "Trial" areas; No more grief alts coming in without retribution, has only a limited L$ balance, may only recall Library objects from inventory and cannot rez its own inventory-stored creations until it's not 'Trial' anymore), but loses all restrictions when an arbitrary fee is paid through its payment info, with a clear message for credit statements/whatever of "Second Life 18+ Verification" or similar.

3) Leave existing PG definitions alone. Leave existing Mature definitions alone. Create a new 'XTREME' definition which throws the content restrictions entirely out the window; Defining them is impossible. You can't define "obscene" or "adult" or "violent" or even "sexual" from one culture to the next. Mature is fine as it is for "adult" and "sexual" and "violent". Relegate "obscene" and everything else not acceptable to TOS into a wholly voluntary "XTREME" category. Leave "XTREME" to private estates; We pay $295 a month for glorified server hosting. Therefore, the account is our problem as we're the paying provider to our private users in our private space.

4) Redefine the estate owner's agreement to leave responsibility for policing estate hosted content to estate owners. You're on your own, it's your world and your imagination.

5) Phase out old blocks of mainland. Phase in a PG continent and an M continent, or at least make geographical divides. It's been proven the two don't coexist and G-Team doesn't effectively enforce either definition.

6) Phase out Aristotle IDV. Integrity has no integrity. Rely on TOS and the above-mentioned "YOU ARE BUYING ADULT SERVICES" message on a billing statement. TOS is legally binding and should be more than enough on its own to absolve LL of legal action.

7) For the love of pete, stop trying to brand us professionals as the ones who want this. We want it less than the majority of your userbase because it stands a very real chance of damaging even non-L$-economy businesses seeking a place in SL.

+1 I already have a descent plot in ursula picked if it helps

lol I've kinda avoided looking at ursula cause I know that there are a lot of landowners who will need a lot more land there than me, and IMHO my little spot that I'll need for my alt can wait until the big players get looked at.

but letting the lindens know I need land there is still a priority for me.

Selkit Diller,

All I could do is once more illuminate how explicitly sexual content discourages business and educatonal uses of SL, and you can see for yourself what will happen if I do that.

You've "illuminated" well enough to tell me that neither you or Linden have an adequate plan, Nany. This is not acceptable, and I can reiterate once more that damage to the userbase is damage to the cause of education and business alike. Second Life's viability as an educational tool depends solely on user interest. As does its viability as a business tool. No users, no customers for business. No users, no social community to keep students interested. The sex does not happen on business campuses, and by your logic, the real world would have to consist of sexless, toothless neuters to be of any use for learning or commerce. Or have you never seen a downtown core with a strip club two blocks from an office building?

Nany, please formulate a plan which satisfies basic economic needs, and I will actually support you. Until you can do that, however, I have no choice but to oppose you on moral and intellectual grounds as a concerned educator.

Let's see "Whores & Gors", "Skank Ass", You are an idiot" ... yeah you have been doing quite a lot

business and educational content in SL tend to discourage the fun in SL. I don't agree that the fun side of SL should be taken out (yes i know there are other things to do besides adult content) to make way for your digital schools and businesses, i think that everyone should have a right to use SL the way they see fit, if you want it for business then that is your thing, please do not force your views and your way of life down my throat.

i don't care what you think nany, but no matter what you do with your life, no matter how much money you make, and no matter how many people you can out argue, in the end you are just as human as me.

Fudgey;

I'd like to think the group I work for operates with a more enlightened sort of business model; A good number of our members began their time in Second Life as residents, not as corporate scouts. We've got a fairly good grasp on the world's dynamics, and myself, having volunteered my time to FurNation's community for four years, I'd like to think I have a good idea of how the world's economy turns its gears.

I am not convinced that the sex trade userbase is invoved in other business or education. The types of things the majority of people posting on this tread have in their profiles would prevent them from participating in reputable mainstream organizations.

Of course the real world doesnt need to be sexless to engage in business and education. Nor does it need to have people masturbating in public. Second life will be fine without people using it as a tool for public masturbation.

Same here. I thought about it this morning just to see it for myself, but then decided I didn't wanna fall in love with some little spot or particular area when I have already stated my flexibility in deference to others who should be given higher priority.


I'll just keep watching the thread waiting for notice that they have the sign up list ready.

Fudgey Jenkins,

Well, the people I care most about are very poor and really, really need the money. These are hard times. Folks need to use every possible way to make a living and keep their families intact, even if that spoils a little of your fun.

/me waves hi to TLMars

nice to see a friendly face again. One of these days I really am gonna have to stop in and see your wares

Nany, I can tell by viewing your profile that you have recently joined Second Life. No, Second Life will not "be fine". Sex has been a part of Second Life ever since llSitTarget was implemented alongside .BVH imports. People have multiple accounts; They have accounts for sexual purposes and they have accounts for nonsexual purposes. They have accounts that with hidden groups, and a cleaner avatar, serve both purposes. One of the greatest scripters I work alongside also has her own private sexual life on Second Life. By your token word, about how people with a sex life do not meaningfully participate on Second Life, you have shown me just how little time you spend interacting with the diverse culture of Second Life.

I interact by building vehicles, and advanced physical dynamics; Guns that can successfully shoot down an incoming shell, dynamic fireworks displays, Rube Goldberg looping ball machines, self-aiming cannons which can precisely throw an object from Point A to Point B. By the very definitions of what is being suggested here, I am adult content in my "violent and dangerous" explorations of the finer details of the physics engine in a world without death.

I find your lack of an open mind and sweeping categorization of whole groups as a mindset very unfit for a community outreach specialist or educator, Nany Kayo. I sincerely hope you have other qualifications rendering you suitable for your job, as your mindset is incompatible.