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Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Main Forum Thread

Moon Corrigible
Registered User
Join date: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 75
03-27-2009 11:59
From: Saiki Spirt
care to quote that law?



Holy macaroni Batman its 8 pages long!

OK here's the url:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/criminal-extreme-offence.htm

and here's an article (one of many about it)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/24/extreme_pron_law_live/


Honestly I should have looked this all up before I asked .. gee.. I'm being so Linden!
Selene Gregoire
Eyes of the Wolf
Join date: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 681
03-27-2009 12:00
From: Grady Vuckovic
My SL client just crashed because I resized the window, and when I opened up the client once more, it came up with the 'Resident Survey'.

Is your Second Life experience getting better or worse?

Well I must say I would LOVE to actually fill this survey out, but because of a strange bug that is appearing in this latest client, I can't actually click anything on the front login page above the blue bar. So I can't fill out the survey. If I could, I would say, "WORSE YOU FOOLS".


Actually you can.... the cursor nevers flashes on mine but I can still type in the area provided.
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Selene Gregoire
Eyes of the Wolf
Join date: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 681
03-27-2009 12:03
From: Moon Corrigible
Being the ignorant Amerocentric trollop that I am I never gave any thought to this at all but my hubby pointed out this might have something to do with the 'Extreme Pornography' law passed in Britain? Any thoughts on this from across the pond? Would the British LL office be criminally liable under this law?




LL's main offices are in SAn Fransico, thier servers are on US soil.

LL has to abide by US laws. Period.
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"Half of what I say is meaningless; but I say it so that the other half may reach you."

"In the depth of my soul there is a wordless song."

Kahlil Gibran


Bhakta Thor
Escape from RL
Join date: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 291
What
03-27-2009 12:04
From: Ann Otoole
? You cannot ever have so-called PG (non mature) with Second Life unless you eliminate all user created content and make the client so it cannot render nakedness and then not release that client as open source and then make it mandatory to connect. It is your one and only possible path forward. So I fully expect you to proceed with this trajectory because anything short of it remains lawsuit bait from the 5 or 6 religious freaks that are forcing this issue here because nobody else on the planet will listen to their insane ranting.


Well that does it. IF they take away my privates, I will have to go.
BT
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
03-27-2009 12:04
From: Ann Otoole
Because, despite LL's best efforts, it is impossible for LL to deliver G rated content as long as there are third party clients that disable certain features resulting in the dreaded nipples and bits showing.
LL doesn't need to prevent people from "framing" second life in a way they disapprove of, any more than Wikipedia or CNN do. This is a long-solved problem... what third-party products do with a web site are not the responsibility of the website. Some stuck-up sites may want to do something about it, but they tend to make laughingstocks of themselves... and there's no point to it.
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
03-27-2009 12:08
From: Storyof Oh
PLEASE can we stop the 'brown bag' reference ...this isn't a global term...in many places it's for people to be sick into.....apt??

A lot of people would find that very appropriate. I know the whole issue is certainly making ME feel ill...
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Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Couldbe Yue
one unhappy customer
Join date: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1,532
03-27-2009 12:09
ok. I've just had Blondin through my place and it appears on current thinking that my place is most likely mature - except for one word in my description which isnt..

He didn't tell me which one though so it's a choice between BDSM, sex, kinky or toys. I think it might be the word toys that is offensive but what do I know??
Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
03-27-2009 12:10
From: Boodie Ballyhoo
...As I compose this post, there are approximately 70,000 users online in SL. This whole topic has in the vicinity of 6000 posts when the related threads are considered, with MANY contributors having made multiple posts. So the total number of users who are speaking out on these goals seems like it is possibly a very small proportion of the total user base. It would be nice if everyone could/would be heard, but I doubt that can/will happen.


We've asked for a wider discussion. The fact is, very few people read these forums. We've asked LL to put this on the login screen. A vote, a survey, or even just a link to this discussion. Nothing.

From: Boodie Ballyhoo
... Some have posted that it is their RIGHT to do what they want where and how they want to do it..... I am not sure that is true, as I believe that the rights and freedoms of any individual end where they encroach on the rights and freedoms of others. That means there has to be respect and tolerance of all. ...


Not exactly. People have posted it's their right to do what they want ON THEIR OWN LAND, the land LL sold them with the expectation that, being "Mature", they could do with it what they wanted. It's NOT the right of anyone to do anything anywhere. For example, I would AR someone running naked through Livingtree soliciting the kids for sex. I *wish* LL would do something about the gesture spammers and foulmouthed showoffs in the PG Welcome Areas. None of the LL proposals speak to THAT sort of "unpredictable SL experience"...which is much more likely to cause random offense than a sex club.
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Lillani Lowell
Registered User
Join date: 5 Apr 2006
Posts: 171
03-27-2009 12:14
So, I've read the Adult Content FAQ......

If they are going to be allowing the use 'Payment Info Verified' as a method of adult verification, then I, as an adult content provider, am behind this change and the segregation. While I see this as something which will, no doubt, hurt my business in the short term, I do believe it will be a benefit to adult business in the long term.

Why?

If all adult content is to be packed into one common area, it means that as an adult provider, you are more likely to be seen by the people actually looking for adult content-- instead of having to advertise and spread yourself all over the grid, you only need to focus your efforts in one area, where you know your entire target audience will be.

That, to me, is like putting all the fish in a pond in one barrel going fishing. You're guaranteed to get bite after bite after bite.

Not only does it quarantine your target market, it also forces my competition to be verified adult content creators...... it will make it far more difficult for the million John Doe Alt Accounts to establish adult businesses ripping other people's products.

I see nothing bad about this proposition.

Moving may be a short-term inconvenience, but the long term gains far, far outweigh the bad.

Think about it.
Deangelo Urqhart
Registered User
Join date: 2 Jun 2008
Posts: 9
03-27-2009 12:15
From: JohnLe Fukai
Sooo, can i be the first "SL BDSM Mentor" please (BDSM people need help to).

(:


Sorry i already try to do that. PLease drop me a line in SL if you want to chat about it.
Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
03-27-2009 12:17
From: Viciously Llewellyn
I'm starting to think this is just how things work at the Lab. I know at my work, every decision that gets made ends up being a battle of egos and personal agendas. Rarely is any decision made that is done the right way ... its usually done so each mega department gets a little what they want ... and yet we make money hand over fist, even during these difficult times.

I feel bad for everyone, but don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I know when the Lab released the OS sim, I was living on a quarter private full sim, and my other three neighbors moved out to get open space sims ... same prims, more land, more privacy. The sim I was living on ended up renting to things that you just couldn't live next to, unless you wanted to not be able to get to your home half the time, and/or wait five minutes for your hair to rez. I lost everything in that deal ... ditched the land, builds didn't fit on the new land so I had to rebuild ... blah, blah, blah ... I took a hot bath, had a bottle of wine and a cry, and moved on.


The problem i see is many people attach a great deal of importance to SL and making money, the streets are paved with gold syndrome. Whilst people do make money here, and a lot cover tier charges etc. but the majority don't. I have invested thousands of dollars over the years into SL and lost a lot as well lol, but have never been under any illusions about the game and the fact it could change at LL's whim as we see now, and with the various stunts they have pulled over the years. If i lost it all tomorrow then it wouldn't matter as i have had a great deal of fun over those years and it was worth every last cent :) Apart from that i met my now wife here and that is priceless :)

I have seen a lot of great people leave the game, talented people and those that offered the community a lot with their skills and great outlooks, but they left when it got to much with LL rulings and kudos for doing what they felt was right for them. i have helped a lot of people over the years as well get started with things and smile when i see their products on sale, maybe my help was useful. I am not here to make money, i see SL as a place to chat with friends i have made and exchange ideas and hopefully learn something from them as well, if ever SL gets to the stage i see some people here at, then i will leave as i don't want the high blood pressure and the obvious anger they are suffering from, affecting my RL.

Its a great game, great entertainment and the only place i can get to interact with people from around the world i wouldn't normally meet and all in a 3d space. Who knows what will happen next, not me nor you, not even those invited to these focus groups as it has all been decided by LL and when they are ready they will tell us and then i will decide my next move, i will probably stay as i always have done and keep my annual premium and sim and if i have to change things i will and remodel the plans we have to fit the changes as i choose to stay and play on LL's game and i agreed to abide by their rules until i decide they don't fit me then i will leave quietly via the back door and certainly not shout it in the forums :)

Peace
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Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
03-27-2009 12:20
From: Eirynne Sieyes
Please don't confuse Mature with Adult content. Here's what Catherine Linden said on page 13, or post No. 182 of this thread:

"-- Is all content currently classified 'Mature' going to have to move to the Adult continent?
No. Our research found an estimated 2-4% of the mainland parcels would need to either relocate or reconfigure to meet the requirements, based on our current definitions of Adult content, which again, is an area where we’d appreciate your feedback."

I wasn't asking what LL thought, I was asking what YOU, Eirynne Sieyes, thought.

Do you want all adult stuff gone/removed/forced to vacate from your SL and have ZERO chance of ever seeing it again unless you seek it out or would being warned when you were about to wander into an adult area be enough to make you happier.
Saiki Spirt
Chaos,Panic,Disorder.DONE
Join date: 1 Jun 2008
Posts: 187
03-27-2009 12:22
From: Sindy Tsure
I wasn't asking what LL thought, I was asking what YOU, Eirynne Sieyes, thought.

Do you want all adult stuff gone/removed/forced to vacate from your SL and have ZERO chance of ever seeing it again unless you seek it out or would being warned when you were about to wander into an adult area be enough to make you happier.

I said the same thing, got no answer lol
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Mystique Chambers
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 78
03-27-2009 12:23
Just to state one thing about the amount of people online that shows us upon logging. Just because it says 70,000 users online. Isn't a factual number. If I have an alt logged in as a camper, that is two of me. Look around at all those campers that business's have. We can't really count those that are ghosting and not really around as a true number reflection of those that should be counted.
I have 6 campers on my business land that I pay hourly to just hang out in a box in the sky. I know two are the same person and camps for the lindens for their main character. The main character isn't registered but does pay rent. if all three are online its still a reflection of just one person. Many do this. Sometimes I even have an alt dancing in my club on a camper pad just for traffic rating and I am there as well. Two in that count of being online, inworld. But obviously there is only one of me that counts.

Shame, I doubt the campers will be allowed on the Adult land now either. Wow, the changes before us all.
Matthew Dowd
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
03-27-2009 12:24
From: Lillani Lowell
SIf all adult content is to be packed into one common area, it means that as an adult provider, you are more likely to be seen by the people actually looking for adult content-- instead of having to advertise and spread yourself all over the grid, you only need to focus your efforts in one area, where you know your entire target audience will be.


There is nothing in the proposal which limits adult land to only commercial activities - or says that you can't own adult land for non-adult purposes. Given we have already seen different Lindens with different views on what is adult (the very vague definition in the now withdrawn FAQ which seemed to cover all mature activities, Blondin's "overtly" sexual or violent in places intended for public use, and the latest "extreme" mature content), and we all know examples of one Linden saying something if fine, only for another Linden to uphold an AR against the same, there is the very real risk that people will buy locations on the adult content for private homes etc. just to be on the safe side.

In effect, there is a real possibility that adult will just become used as mature land is currently used (with exception that it will only be used by verification/PIOF avatars), and finding vendors on that land will be just as difficult as finding vendors on mainland.

Matthew
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
03-27-2009 12:25
From: Moon Corrigible
Holy macaroni Batman its 8 pages long!

OK here's the url:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/criminal-extreme-offence.htm

and here's an article (one of many about it)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/24/extreme_pron_law_live/


Honestly I should have looked this all up before I asked .. gee.. I'm being so Linden!


Well we already have obscenity laws and that law is with regard to personal possession, if I walk into a parcel and someone presents before me an extreme image, I'm not guilty under that law as I had no way of avoiding it, if I pick it up, save to my inventory, save it to my PC, then i'm guilty.
Couldbe Yue
one unhappy customer
Join date: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1,532
03-27-2009 12:25
From: Moon Corrigible
Being the ignorant Amerocentric trollop that I am I never gave any thought to this at all but my hubby pointed out this might have something to do with the 'Extreme Pornography' law passed in Britain? Any thoughts on this from across the pond? Would the British LL office be criminally liable under this law?


No this is more to do with LL participating in, and sponsoring, the Berkman Internet Safety Technical Task Force run by the Berkman Centre for Internet and Society at Harvard University.

In December 08 it produced it's final report : "Enhancing Child Safety and Online Technologies" Final Report of the Internet Safety Technical Task Force to the Multi-State Working Group on Social Networking of State Attorneys General of the United States.



this is the law you refer to:CJIA 2008 (extreme pornography) law

This criminalises people who own pictures that contain the following:

(7) An image falls within this subsection if it portrays, in an explicit and realistic way, any of the following—

(a) an act which threatens a person’s life,

(b) an act which results, or is likely to result, in serious injury to a person’s anus, breasts or genitals,

(c) an act which involves sexual interference with a human corpse, or

(d) a person performing an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal (whether dead or alive),

and it doesn't matter where you got them from, even if they're pictures of you they still fall under this law. The concept of consent to an activity is completely excluded from this law. However this law only applies to rl pictures - until the govt or police decide otherwise of course :)
Saiki Spirt
Chaos,Panic,Disorder.DONE
Join date: 1 Jun 2008
Posts: 187
03-27-2009 12:26
I still say they should move the Pg crap away, let the adults play
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
To JP Linden:
03-27-2009 12:26
From: someone
C&P from a JP Linden post of 3 March 2009:
"We have four key guiding principles to work from, and we’d like you to consider them and share your thoughts:

1) We will create clear and consistent definitions of what constitutes adult content, in line with our Community Standards,

2) We will enable easy, reliable, and consistent ways to be able to access content by type - the goal being to ensure that Residents can choose what they want to see, purchase and experience.

3) We will implement effective Resident services and dialog to ensure that those who provide Adult goods or services can continue their activities without long-term disruption or loss of business.

4) We will implement account verification systems that provide an additional level of assurance for providers of Adult content that only adults are able to access their content. Such a system might be tied, for instance, to a verified payment method like a credit card, a validation by our age verification provider, or another credible method of validation.

Please use this thread to share your thoughts on these goals and to ask any questions you may have about why we will be making these changes for Adult content in Second Life."


1: When will we, the Residents who are your affected Customers, see these "clear and consistent definitions"? The first attempt at the "Maturity Ratings FAQ" was anything but clear, consistent, or in line with Linden claims that the plan will only affect 2% to 4% of content in SL. Why does Linden Lab REFUSE to answer any resident who questions the validity of that 2% to 4% figure? Why does Linden Lab not reply to residents requests to validate and make clear the assumptions, definitions and methodology used to arrive at that 2% to 4% figure?

2: Before stating that you will do this, don't you think it would be a good idea to see if you have the technical capability to achieve it? The Aristotle Age Verification method and associated parcel and sim-level access flags have NEVER worked reliably or consistently. And that doesn't touch on the people who can't get Aristotle's system to work for them even if they wanted to, or those who refuse to risk using that provider.

3: It would have been advisable to start that dialog AS a dialog, actually setting feedback from residents, before setting an inflexible course in advance? Your team gets an F-Minus grade on Customer Relations skills. You can not possibly "ensure that those who provide Adult goods or services can continue their activities without long-term disruption or loss of business" when you refuse to listen to experienced residents who are teling you in no uncertain terms that your pre-determined and inflexible plan has fatal flaws and is based on false assumptions.

4: See point #2. Wouldn't it have been wiser to be certain that you COULD implement "account verification systems" in a manner accessible to the vast majority of residents, before setting sail on a course of action that assumes such systems will be in place and functional at the time when you force this change to take place?
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Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Maggie Darwin
Matrisync Engineering
Join date: 2 Nov 2007
Posts: 186
03-27-2009 12:26
From: Yoki Enoch
Sooo Mickey Mouse hugging or kissing someone is Adult? Okaaaaayyyyy...

Mickey Mouse fetish there, Yoki? Seems like it's all about the Mouse with you.

Paging Dan O'Neill... :-)
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
03-27-2009 12:27
From: Moon Corrigible
Being the ignorant Amerocentric trollop that I am I never gave any thought to this at all but my hubby pointed out this might have something to do with the 'Extreme Pornography' law passed in Britain? Any thoughts on this from across the pond? Would the British LL office be criminally liable under this law?


I very much doubt it but here is a campaign group run by a friend with links to the relevant areas that you may wish to look at:

http://www.caan.org.uk/issues/

A quote i love from the page:

"In passing this law, the government completely ignored evidence that the vast majority of material deemed to be “extreme porn” originates in the USA, which has some of the toughest laws in the world regulating consent when it comes to porn."
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Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants.

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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
03-27-2009 12:28
From: Couldbe Yue
ok. I've just had Blondin through my place and it appears on current thinking that my place is most likely mature - except for one word in my description which isnt..

He didn't tell me which one though so it's a choice between BDSM, sex, kinky or toys. I think it might be the word toys that is offensive but what do I know??
That's some help anyway. I'm already using "BDSM" and "sex" in my parcel descriptions, so if I just add the other two I should be sure to qualify for Ursula. :cool:
Selene Gregoire
Eyes of the Wolf
Join date: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 681
03-27-2009 12:28
From: Sindy Tsure
I wasn't asking what LL thought, I was asking what YOU, Eirynne Sieyes, thought.

Do you want all adult stuff gone/removed/forced to vacate from your SL and have ZERO chance of ever seeing it again unless you seek it out or would being warned when you were about to wander into an adult area be enough to make you happier.




LL is NOT, I repeat, NOT removing the adult content from SL. They simply want to move the MOST EXTREME forms, i.e. torture, dismemberment, snuff... the really kinky, twisted stuff... to an area of it's own on the grid. That is the 2 - 4% adult content that has been refered to.

What is so frakking hard to understand about that?
_____________________
"Half of what I say is meaningless; but I say it so that the other half may reach you."

"In the depth of my soul there is a wordless song."

Kahlil Gibran


Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
03-27-2009 12:28
From: Lillani Lowell
So, I've read the Adult Content FAQ......

If they are going to be allowing the use 'Payment Info Verified' as a method of adult verification, then I, as an adult content provider, am behind this change and the segregation. While I see this as something which will, no doubt, hurt my business in the short term, I do believe it will be a benefit to adult business in the long term.

Why?

If all adult content is to be packed into one common area, it means that as an adult provider, you are more likely to be seen by the people actually looking for adult content-- instead of having to advertise and spread yourself all over the grid, you only need to focus your efforts in one area, where you know your entire target audience will be.

That, to me, is like putting all the fish in a pond in one barrel going fishing. You're guaranteed to get bite after bite after bite.

Not only does it quarantine your target market, it also forces my competition to be verified adult content creators...... it will make it far more difficult for the million John Doe Alt Accounts to establish adult businesses ripping other people's products.

I see nothing bad about this proposition.

Moving may be a short-term inconvenience, but the long term gains far, far outweigh the bad.

Think about it.


All adult content is not being packed into one common area, private estates do not need to move although Jack has said he'd listen to proposals to move out there in a move such as the United Sailing sims, maybe some adult content estate owners could get together.

However having all the products in one area generally isn't considered good practice. If I want to open 10 stores it would be a bit silly of me to open them all in the same place with the same visitors.
BloodThirster Mishin
Registered User
Join date: 28 May 2008
Posts: 1
Idea?! for LL
03-27-2009 12:29
I have an idea, before you LL folks move the mature/adult.

How about you think about starting to move the PG sims, this way. You can link the teengrid, with the PG sims.

If you move the more adult/mature sims the money will follow cause of items from skin, beds, clothing, and many more dirty adult items. You may leave, others in between a rock and a hardplace.

Please dont make us pay for our adult fun.......