H1N1 - What's the Feeling in SL Community?

The incidence of anything goes up when it has to be reported. It goes up even further when there is some incentive (monetary, punitive, marketing etc . . . ) to report.

Pep (It then goes down again when reporting systems are instituted such that the administration nuisance is considered excessive.)

One of the problems I have with singling out aluminum as a singular cause is in how much aluminum we actually expose ourselves to. I reckon heavy soda drinkers probably take in far more aluminum than what one could get from the whole litany of childhood vaccines. Does this mean aluminum is entirely without blame? Maybe, maybe not. It's possible that, by it may have an effect; that it has no effect; or that it combines with other factors to have an effect. This simply has not been well studied yet.

Another example of pulling causal relationships out of thin air: Teflon-coated cookware started becoming popular in American households some time in the mid-seventies. I remember the Teflon-coated skillets my mom had back then: Even though we were warned to not use metal utensils on it, those skillets were heavily coated and could withstand a lot of abuse. Compare that with a lot of Teflon-coated cookware available today from places like Wal-Mart and Target: The coating is so thin and flimsy that it flakes off just by looking at it funny. Could it be possible that Teflon-coated cookware could be responsible for the rise in Autism? Could the exponential increase in Autism cases be related to the exponentially-increasing cheapness in Teflon coatings in cookware?

I'm not saying it is, though I'm certain it's causing *some* unknown medical issues. But my point is, we could play cause-and-effect games until the cows come home, and be no closer to narrowing down the suspects with any scientific confidence. And, yet, this is exactly what these studies implicating MMR vaccines, thimerosal, or aluminum are all doing: Looking at a single source and trying to pin it down as the cause.

Debra's assertions are dangerous because they attempt to pin down a single cause without *any* conclusive evidence to support those assertions. Meanwhile, polio and measles are beginning to make a comeback because people have gotten complacent with vaccines over the years. If we all follow Debra's ill-thought-out advice, abolish vaccinations, and drink ourselves silly with suspended silver ions, what deadly plague would we unleash upon ourselves?

While this is all partly true, at least in principle, this can be taken to a very dangerous but logical next step: Allow children to swim in raw sewage, thus REALLY building up their immunities! No thank you, and God help you if you ever have children of your own.

There are diseases out there that will flat-out kill children, as in make them very, very dead. Not sick -- Dead. No chance to build up immunities. That is what the vaccines are for: To provide a low-level exposure to these pathogens so that their immune systems CAN safely develop immunities against the deadly real things. But maybe you're advocating sparing the needle and letting whole populations get wiped off the face of the earth by a disease the needle could have prevented.

Maybe. And maybe because the other unvaccinated ones are dead?

Just an aside, and this is 100% true, I am a direct descendant of the Emery this Masonic Lodge is named for That family was originally Hummerich, which is Dutch. And the Lodge is still acitve. http://emerylodge258.blogspot.com/

Anyhow, it is my last Sunday before the end of the break and I must clean my lizard, I mean rabbit hutches.

Going back to the OP's first post, all I can say on whether to get vaccinated or not is based purely on an informed decision. Parents do that for their kids based on their own personal thoughts, weighing up all the pros and cons at the time. There is always a lot of disinformation and conjecture flying about, not just on this subject but anything that can't
be answered. To my mind very little in medicine can be quoted as fact, but ultimately we are all responsible for our actions. All I can say is my kids have had every vaccination required right from birth and they are both perfectly fine healthy intelligent teenagers. I do not know of anybody in my district that has 'developed' any problem subsequent to being vaccinated, be it autism or whatever. That said most people I know who are healthy, regardless of age, do not intend having a vaccination for swine flu.

I knew it! The blame all falls to WalMart and the ChiComs.

At least those that are still alive.

It's sad that people like you cannot even address the whole reply I made and just pick out that one line.

Shame you brought out the lizard, now you are going on the ignore list.

I guess Debra thought I had the rest of my life to repeat the same thing over and over again for her to ignore? Sorry, missus, it's my Sunday, too.

Anyhow, we aren't allowed to talk about the lizards. That's why I have rabbits.

ETA: yes people like me who have a had a kajillion immunizations without autism or other malady resulting, including the disease immunized against. And are able to grasp how there is more than one reason and variable involved in the statistics being reported. Iy yi yi.

I think Pep is the only respondent not to be on ignore now? That has got to be a first, high five Pep!

He hasn't mentioned the "L" word, I guess.

That was a faux pas. I meant bunnehs.

So.
Have you all been getting along with each other when I was away?
How did we get on to chicken pox?
My close friend had shingles about 3 years ago (at the age of 24) and it was completely devastating to her. He right arm still aches and tingles if she writes too much.
I actually was tempted to banish her from my property and then felt very sorry for her and put her in my guest house since she had no one to turn to.
Young people getting shingles is unusual, innit? Pity there isnt a vaccine for that.
Pity there isnt a vaccine for most things really.

If your a doctor, hurry up and develop a vaccine to stop addictions! I wish there was one to help recovering alcoholics.

As they say (I think?)- the sins of the father are the sins of the son. Or something like that.



In Jones Town, many parents thought they were doing the right thing for their child also.

It's eggs, you know, that they use for this vaccine.
I just emailed a real friend and said how amazed I was at thnking they must have had a chicken lay an egg for everyone of us to make up the vaccine.
How many chickens?
How many eggs?
Billions.
So why hasnt the price of eggs gone up???
So why is oil always going up with demand?
Isnt that brilliant?

Do you mean "Loony"?

Pep (I wouldn't be so cruel to lizards, who are cold blooded unemotional logical beings.)

PS And are therefore much closer to my heart - even if it is made of stone.

hi jig....I am one of only a few including good 'ol pep, who hasn't been put on an ignore list by debs. So I strongly suggest you don't mention anything about lizards ok.........doh!

But that goes both ways.

Vaccinations are not given in the same way, strength or frequency as they used to be. Three rounds of vaccinations for some things while still a toddler? Overkill.

Also, show me the studies trying to follow up on long term effects (read: across a lifetime, decades later) on childhood vaccinations for the Baby Boomers. I don't know of any.

Drug companies don't go looking for messes to clean up. They make even more money if things are left a bit messy.

Anecdotal - I know two families whose toddler son became autistic after the third round of vaccinations - it CAN cause neurological damage, just as vaccinations and even antibiotics can cause guillain barre in adults. Kids are that much more vulnerable.

All I can say is everyone here could stand to open their mind a bit to the 'opposite' side.

(Perhaps one thing that is a sticking point is that the damage vaccinations *can* cause, mimics autism; but perhaps there needs be a new disease category for diseases and disorders and after effects *caused by* 'modern medicine.' Rather than call it autism - guillain barre - chronic fatigue syndrome - fibromyalgia - why not call it Messed Up By Big Pharma Syndrome?* Or a less PG rated title.)

*A catch-all title. I am not saying those are the same thing, before anyone does a backflip in snarkticipatory glee.

You made an informed decision which was right for yourself.

Everyone deserves that right in my opinion.

I do not trust drug company data, especially as I have spoken with a person who worked for the reporting agency and was told to combine, lessen and even falsify patients' post market ADR reports.

Just look at the number of pills that are recalled as deadly after hitting the market. How well are things tested? Or the fact that the FDA and drug companies' hiring is very incestuous - obvious conflict of interest be danged.

Between 7 and 14 percent of Caucasian population lacks the liver enzyme (in enough quantity) to metabolise most pharmaceuticals and yet the dosage is geared toward the average person. Why are people not screened for this and dosages adjusted accordingly, at the very least? How many drug deaths - over 100,000 in hospitals yearly alone - could be avoided?

Where are the long term studies for having taken a round of any drug? Where are the studies for drug effects in every likely combination of pill? I don't see why people trust what the drug companies say (including percentage of severe after effects) as if it were the truth when they lie, mislead, or commit gross negligence so often.

Oh jesus, there is not one shred of conclusive evidence that can link autism to vaccinations and just because a baby was diagnoses autistic after a round of vaccinations means very little beyond it being a 'fundamental attribution error'.

Dr. Dean Edell goes off about this every week and all i ever see are parents of autistic children looking to expand the definition of autism, expand who with what conditions are autistic and condemn the vaccination industry for causing autism in their child. .

One tenth of the country should be autistic by now according to the "vaccinations cause autism" crowd.

Even more amazing is the number of "medical professional" opinions given in this thread. In the first pages i posted what my doctor told me at the medical clinic when i took my kids their 2 weeks ago and yet someone in this thread knee-jerk replied as if they were a doctor contradicting what my doc has just told me.

Topics like this are uselessly discussed among the uneducated in medicine masses.

Maybe because they would be dead without them? For all the lying, misleading and corruption that exists in the pharma industry, they also do good things and have saved lives. Are they altruism personified? No, they aren't, just as any Corporate entity isn't, they all should be looked at with scrutiny. But I live in the Pharma State, every major company has a presence here. I know quite a few people who work in the industry, from sales to R&D, to simple lab techs. i get into this debate with them sometimes.There are people doing good work there, and making profit yes, but they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Profit can be an excellent motivator to achieve excellence.

Long term studies are fine, but they are...long term. You can't get a good idea on a drug's effects when so few people are using it for such a relatively short time. I would broaden clinical trials to include larger groups. Corners do get cut and unfortunate things happen, and those should be minimized The industry needs better regulation. Not more regulation, our government seems to think the quality of regulation improves exponentially to the number they impose, but it needs saner, more practical regulation. All business does. But you can't expect a group of thieves to be charged with watching another group of thieves and expect results. Our fish stinks from the head.

We do have to make informed choices. We are over medicated, we want a pill for everything. But there are also many people who would not be here today without the products of drug companies.

That has been happening on both 'sides' of the discussion - nothing new on the 'net.



Doctors are spoon fed what to believe by Big Pharma. It takes a rare one to be a decent diagnostician and not simply glance at a person and prescribe for symptoms (instead.) The phrase 'educated idiot' comes to mind. How often have doctors been wrong about major things in the history of medicine, and how often has science itself?

People who are saying one point of view is fallible should also look at their own clay footed statues.

As for autism/vaccines, the skyrocketing rate should be looked at and no possible cause should be ignored. When a baby is normal one day and soon after an event is a totally different child, it would be neglectful at best to ignore the event.



Why so, since no one knows what exactly causes some people to have a side effect and others not, to any given treatment? The numbers could very well be dead-on.

No, it is not. The FDA regulates commercial claims about the effects of products. The FDA does not control or prevent research from appearing in peer-reviewed journals. The makers of "coral calcium supplements" or acacia berry compounds are free to conduct clinical trials of their products, after which they can make claims about the effectiveness and side effects of their products. They just have to play by the same rules as everyone else. The FDA is not using strong-arm tactics in stopping unproven claims of products that have not been through a controlled research program. They are doing what they are mandated to do: protect the public from untested medical treatments. Mind you, there are problems in the way trials are conducted (I keep pushing www.badscience.net, but it is worth the read) but it is far better than the alternative of allowing any product on the market to make claims that it is effective treatment for a particular condition without conducting controlled research on the effects and side-effects of that product. Despite what you claim, the FDA will accept trial and study results of natural products and plants, but the trials must be controlled (using a double-blind methodology) and rigorous before the FDA will approve the use of a product for medical treatment.

Japan uses monodoses and has higher death rates. Vaccinations aren't even given the same way from country to country or on the same schedule. It is up to the individual to look into it.



I don't have the time to dig up references for you tonight. It doesn't take me any time though to remind you that pregnant women who contract Rubella can give birth to blind babies, or babies with heart conditions, or stillborns. Young men who contract the mumps can become sterile. Adults that contract chickenpox can die. Anyone can die of any of those things if they have compromised health. These are long term realities of not having immunizations. Ultimately it is up to each individual to make that decision for themselves or their child, and then live with the consequences.




Tysabri springs to mind. That was made by an Irish company and I don't think they would want a repeat of that mistake, financially or otherwise.



That's great. I know a family whose daughter, (and this is the only case I know of where it was 100% confirmed linked with the immunization) is severely disabled and low functioning following an illness following an immunization. It was a clear cut case. I also know another family that believe their son quit talking because he said, "duck", the only word he knew, too many times in a row and his mother told him to be quiet. Onset of autism, vaccination schedules...subjectivity.



I am not touching any of that. People need to decide for themselves. I wouldn't undo ANY of the vaccination decisions I've made.

I agree. One way to begin might be to not hire back and forth across the regulating agency and the corporation.

Of course some pills work - but there is a boatload more corruption and needless maiming and death than ever should be allowed or accepted. There isn't any reason for a lot of that except greed. Why not keep cheaper better working pills on the market instead of changing them slightly in no big way and relabeling it for ten times the cost. Greed. Multiple billions of dollars worth.

People still think that if the drug companies are too looked at or too criticized they will stop making things and people will die. No, because it's still big business. But why doesn't some of that profit go toward tracking what happens long term, or in combinations. Or how about more money towards finding cures? But those are other topics.



Of course, I agree and have been saying some of this also. There is a time and place for each type of medicine. It's the shoddiness, denial and negligence and corruption that is the issue. But when people will do worse for a lot less, who's surprised when there are billions upon billions at stake with such low overhead? Sorry, they are just drug dealers to me.

I do think they hire some good people, though and that some of *their* discoveries help people. (Even if they do get fired or threatened if they tell. ;p )