Avie Descrimination

Thanks Danielle, I will come by - I may need to go buy a fur suit some time to experience this rightly.
A

Sure, I was just saying that Frank's Place is not a "come as you are" social club, but one with a formal attire requirement.

Ironically, or not, most group notices from the place seem to be something along the lines of "many women looking for dance partners, hurry down" or "where are the men?"

Where they usually are ..

Playing WoW

For no reason, my first thought on reading that is "think of the children!"

I have been at Phats in my Deamoness persona and have received numerous compliments and not one threat of banning.

I have been at Frank's in almost domme attire (you know how Falln clothes can be! - and not one complaint -

Who knows- maybe a fur would not have been removed...I don't actually know- it was just the sign that seemed so repellent. It made me sad

I don't really have a problem with a place like Frank's wanting to impose a dress code on its customers. And excluding furries is really no more than a dress code - because anyone who wears a furry avatar by preference can just as easily change into a more human form for a few hours if she or he really wants to spend the evening at a human-only place.

It's perfectly reasonable to want to create a certain atmosphere within your sim. Whether it's requiring RP-appropriate costume in an RP sim, or establishing the atmosphere of a swank 1940s-era jazz club - it's just atmospheric play, not tantamount to discrimination.

I say this as an avatar whose primary form is a blue-skinned human - and I've been to one or two role-playing sims where it was clear my blue skin wasn't welcome. At Tombstone, for example, I put on a more human-colored skin. Or, I just don't go there.

I've on several occasions asked naked people to get dressed at my cafe. I've nothing against naked people but that's not the atmosphere I want at my place. On one occasion a naked woman TP'd into my cafe with hovertext that said she was under orders of her "mistress" to remain naked for the entire day, and I was not "permitted" to ask her to get dressed. I had to ask her to leave. Was that discrimination against the master-slave mistress-pet or whatever you call that lifestyle? Well, maybe it was, but it's a right I have to keep my cafe atmosphere the way I want it (in particular, clouded with smoke from the houkahs ).

It's a weird situation because of the nature of SL. Of course, being a furry is a choice, and furries can just as easily take on a human form if they want to go somewhere that furries are not welcome. But in SL, everything is a choice, isn't it? What if some dance club put up a sign that said, "Caucasian Avatars Only". We would flip out. The place would be vilified. But skin color, while not a choice in RL, is completely a choice in SL. I can be African, Asian, Caicasian, blue, green, or whatever. I'm not saying that discrimination against furries is the same thing, exactly, because the history of discrimination against non-caucasian races is a significant real world issue and there are no furries in real life. Saying "No Furries" doesn't strike me as being as despicable as "Whites Only".

My point is that EVERYTHING about how we look is a choice. So does discrimination exist at all? Where do we draw the line? When it includes real life racial hatred? That seems like a good place, but how do we define RL hatred in SL?

I think this is a bad move by the club. It's within the TOS and it's their right, but I don't think I'll be going there anymore. It's my right to go to Danielle's place instead, or any number of other jazz clubs. formal dance places, etc.

Add me to the "I Love Trout" Fan Club, please

And while we are at it...

http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2004/10/miravoir_meets_.html

Ya know... and people wonder why they get made fun of.

I'm all for letting people live their Second Life in whatever way they choose, no matter how bizarre their fantasies. However, this example (as well as the OP) are instances where your personal preferences interfere with other people's enjoyment of THEIR Second Life. Clearly against the intent of SL, if not actually ToS.

I can see wanting to dance and being surprised by a dress code, but why on earth would you assume that you can just TP around naked to public places??? Sometimes the RL people behind the avatars just frighten me.

B.

Brann, I agree completely, and it was all I could do to stop laughing long enough to ask this woman to leave.

To her credit, she was extremely nice, left immediately, and then sent me a IM apologizing. The apology was unnecessary but appreciated anyhow.

Trout, you make a very good point about the avatar's apparent race being a matter of choice as well, and yet there are some kinds of exclusion that would seem egregious TOS violations. I am applying a different standard to furry-exclusion (or blue-lady exclusion for that matter), and I'll have to go and think about that for a while.

IM me inworld. I will show you the formal dress I usually wear at occasions like weddings. Being a furry and can wear *any* clothing set I want, no prims are disturbing me.

I never walk around without clothing since this would make me feel naked, although I am fully covered in fur. I think you confuse furries with "quads", animal avatars.

To the club owners and others... If you don't like me just go away. I have many friends who would NEVER ask me to switch my avatar to attend their wedding or anything like that. It's rude and mean to say that. The worst case are men telling a furry female "youre a nice person. Do you happen to have a NORMAL ava as well so we can go out to dance?"

No demonesses allowed. Sorry. (kidding - trust me - the fan club is so small, we'll take any members we can get. So far, it appears to be just the two of us and an alt I made for the alt party)

Madhu: I agree. It feels like there ought to be a different standard. The whole argument made me think, though, and I thought I'd throw my thoughts out there to spark some conversation. It's one of those areas where RL doesn't mesh with SL properly. It's interesting to me.

LIES!

To use a black avatar is a choice too. Just put a white skin.

Are kidding me? Trout must not pay much attention but I think Trouts little harem has now grown to 150 women, oh and Ricardo and Bradley!

This always makes me cross. Same as when I tell people NOT to call me Mistress or whatever and they say "my Mistress says" ... it makes me want to tell this naked visitor "well, you tell your Mistress that she can come and speak for herself then and apologise that she has caused someone not even remotely involved to non-consensually be faced with someone naked in their establishment".

This is, sadly, crappy online BDSM rubbish that is far too common in SL and in other places. It leaks into RL too, sadly, when there are asshats about.

Meh. And it's not so easy for Madhu as it is for me to say fine - you can't speak as a normal human being without imposing someone's (someone I neither know or care about) views on me, don't speak to me at all. I have no time for doormats ...

Boot without guilt, I say, Madhu.

Folks, he does it for the sympathy factor

Mona, still want to go swimming with you!

Mahdu, while I was morphing into a mermaid I bought a blue skin... hadn't decided on mer-person yet - just liked the naiad aspect... A friend invited me to go dance - I showed up blue - he was not happy - to his credit he has since "embraced" my blue period although not his preference.... sadly I can't get him past the horns, wings, tail thing...

Shallow people! Yesterday I was talking with a fellow who was all full of compliments for me and actually said "if you weren't blue I'd be hitting on you like crazy." And I've mentioned here before that I've been told I should have a "normal" skin color because it would be more "appealing". /me rolls eyes.

Not that I mind being everyone in SL's big sister, as I sometimes feel I am, but I have to wonder if the blue skin is why I never get hit on. I happen to think my avatar is pretty cute.

No matter, as I've taken lately to wandering around in tiny dino form and biting people's ankles. *rarr!*

I think that you can get idiots in SL, no matter what clothing, skin colour, or avatar. I discriminate based on what people say and do, rather than how they look.

I will read that last sentence in the first paragraph to mean that a person faced with someone naked in their establishment is being faced with this naked person without their consent (and I assume that is what you meant). If that is the case, I have no comment.

Not trying to belittle the post but I really don't see this as a big deal. There's a million other places to go in SL. I can see their point, they're creating a certain standard, ambience. But even if its kinda lousy, well just move on I think. This is SL, not RL. Different standards err or sometimes no standard at all. That's the deal pretty much to me. Unfortunately furries, demonesses or blue people are not welcome everywhere. I think it's cool to have these interesting avi's running around, part of what makes SL so wonderful, and just another part of the difference of SL from RL.

I know some furries wear clothes, that was in my original post. I think it more likely I am thinking of tinies (which I am occassionally) than quads. But since I was clearly making assumptions about furries based on a very small sample, I withdraw my original remarks.

Oh man! This I would love to see

See Trout Knucklehead? you see to be immune to Cupid's wonderful little arrows!

Sorry Ann, I tried!

______________________________

Claire and I are casual Neko's and rarely get flak as such... we did however get the venom spewed at us by a group of dark angels when she and I were dancing at a club. I suppose to them she appeared like a child avi?
I was being heckled as being a pedophile and her as a child avi! She being petite, and dressed rather teensy that night, may have put them over the edge, but WTF!

I happened to drop by a freebie place last night and purposely picked up a few totally non human avi’s, and even purchased a few classy ones...I think it is a marvelous thing to expand one’s horizons and move part pre-conceived ideas of what’s normal.