Avie Descrimination

I am a human avi but occasionally i will go about in a non-human, daemoness form - horns tail, fire breathing, wings.... yeah I get into it ...

Tonight I am just a girl - I went over to Frank's Place.. there is a HUGE sign that besides announcing that no weapons are allowed and formal attire is required - the sign says NO FURRIES!

Why the hell not? I understand the clothes and weapons thing- but furries?

If we are all to make use of our imagination (Our world, etc...) then why the hell not furries?

Isn't that discrimination? Think about it- we are all human regardless of how we present ourselves in world - if we "feel" inside, that we want to portray a spiritual incarnation - fur, dragon, butterfly- what ever - why is that frowned upon?

In RP places, I understand- if you live in a dog world cats walking about might be inconvenient... but in a dance club?

Now- I recognize the owners desire to live THEIR world according to their imagination- I just thought I would bring the attitude in general to the attention of the community- for discussion really - It just seems rather an inscrutable attitude to take really.

Anyway- I for one am going to make a point of thinking these things thru - i can't see myself frequenting places that discriminate against some of us-

I've never been to Frank's place

is it some kind of ultra-realistic build or something?

It's a pretty jazz joint - they have concerts It's like Phats or Shiraz or other dance places. You go to socialize, meet people dance- I realize its their place- I am not saying they have to conform to my standards- I just now choose to take my custom elsewhere- because i had no idea they discriminated.

I tip - nicely -

I'm afraid this is another thread that will go to hell fairly quickly.

As for my input............if you don't like the policy or practices of any establishment don't waste your time trying to figure out the why and certainly don't pass on your thinly veiled contempt for such policies. Just move on. Don't freguent the place, tell your friend privately what you think but don't come to the forums and post bait like you just did.

Happy trolling.

I don't see why anyone in business would intentionally limit their customers like that.

It does give an image of discrimination.

Not actual discrimination, since being a furry isn't exactly a racial group, but hints of discrimination among people seeing such a sign.

You know- it's not bait- and it sure as hell ain't trolling. If you bothered to read other things i have written you will come away with the impression that, yes, I am very definitely opinionated and have no qualms about expressing it.

If you think i am trolling- your opinion does not matter to me. Like you say, move along- there are plenty of other participants here that will have opinions on the subject.

I make it quite clear that the owners are free to do as they wish and if the proper course is not to even name the establishment- I will edit my post to remove the name as i am sure Brenda would be willing to do- since there is no desire to violate TOS.

I do feel it is something to talk about though, because each of us belongs to some little group or another - I am not even a furry - I am however a Resident and as such am expressing my opinion.

If they play jazz I don't know why you want to go anyway.

Ask Frank.

I don't know why they bother putting a sign out. If the place is all swish and formal and mock real world. I'm picking creatures from another world would not have it high on there "must go" list.

No big deal though. If I went to an other worldly foresty place and saw a sign that said "no human avatars" I'd just shrug and move on.

It is pretty simple - people want to create a certain ambiance. This is why dress codes exist. If people want their place to look like a rl club, that is their choice. Some people will discriminate on a principle of furries being evil/wrong/whatever their perception is. I'm not saying this is right, but it is life. But if you cannot respect the rules of the house, go elsewhere. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

It's not a TOS violation to exclude furries because there is no real life law to prevent it.

If it said 'no blacks' or 'no gays' then I would expect an AR would be dealt with as it was discriminatory - and I doubt if a 'KKK roleplay area' would be tolerated either.

Most real life restaurants say 'no dogs' (although usually disabled assistance dogs are allowd), nobody seems to consider that discrimination.

Perhaps you could go along as a blind person's guide dog?

Most furries I see are largely naked, some wear clothes, but most don't, and since most furry AVs have prim bodies, clothing could be difficult (though not impossible). Which would seem to make it rather hard for them to comply with the formal dress requirement.

In your original post you state that you are seeking discussion on the topic. Then in a later post you dismiss an opinion, as valid as any other opinion, because you don't like it. Does this mean you are only interested in opinions that re-enforce your prejudice against the club's prejudice?

Instead of a NO FURRIES sign, He could just state that there is a dress and skin code maintain the ambience of the sim. (as most Role Play sims have in place, like Tombstone)

I fail to see a prejudice.

Being a furry is a choice, not a fact of birth.

Amaranth you are my friend, and we both strongly have feelings about freedom and rights.

In my mind, if I buy a sim, invest the time and money to build it, it is a private sim. I can keep anyone I want out for any reason I want. What about my freedom to do that? By calling this a prejudice you are trying to escalate this into a human rights issue when really it is only about someone in a costume demanding every other sim bend and change to please them. Sims they do not own, sims they do not work at or pay for except maybe by donations, and as you know, donations do not grant you say, donations by nature are a no strings attached contribution.

I think in life when you make a conscious decision to look different, you also make a conscious decision to deal with the fallout of that. If I decide I will no longer wear a shirt, then I also decide I can no longer eat at my favorite fine dining restaurant. It goes against my belief system to then demand that restaurant change to accommodate me and my new shirtless lifestyle. I think the moment we try to change society to shield people from the consequences of their action, we turn society further towards and unimaginable chaotic mess where everyone can get anything they want filled with unique people but no unique places.

If Franks allowed furries, huge prim vampire wings, girls in next to no clothing, or any other AV "Choice" they would no longer be Franks, they would be just like every other club in SL. SL citizens would be robbed of a distinct geographic experience, and then another, and another. There would be no fine dining, no swankee clubs, etc.... all would be the same, with different decor.

I wish to be clear, I got no problem with flurries in a tux going to Franks. But I do have a problem with saying Franks is exhibiting a prejudice against anyone. They are exercising their rights, not a prejudice, as private owners of private properties, to enforce a dress code, and preserve their vision for their private club.

Also will point out Amar, that when I met you, you were in your RP gown from an RP sim. Almost every period RP sim I have been in does not allow furries, or any other AV that does not match the flavor the RP sim is going for. The simple reason is it ruins people's sense of immersion to be walking around in Gor and see Papa Smurf giggling with the slaves.

Franks too is after a sense of immersion. They certainly have as much right to pass rules allowing them to achieve it as any roleplay or Gorean sim.

Anyway, I don't usually come to forums and give my opinion on anything, or even read them, but was sent an IM asking me to come heheh so will not be back to debate my words. I only wished to make my opinion and have it added to the mix and now I will make my way......

well said Mako, well said

No one has "rights" to go to anywhere at all in SL, unless they are paying for it themselves.

Fact. So long as there is nothing posted which is inciting hatred then the ToS do not say you have to let anyone in at all. As was stated above, an avatar is something you choose to wear not an inherent characteristic of the person behind the screen. It may be that some people choose to portray themselves in SL with some accuracy i.e. for instance in a wheelchair - now that would be discrimination.

That having been said, I can only see that a RP place has any need to make distinctions, when trying to go for a specific feel or theme. I've always rather fancied having an av which is just a ball of light, personally ... if I choose to wear that, and am asked not to, am I being discriminated against? Or is it just that I am causing lag.

There's no absolutes in this thing.

Guys- if I seemed to dismiss anothers' opinion, then yes you are aright - I was wrong to, and I apologize. I was upset at being called a troll since I was not trolling.

Mako- I understand your point about their view of the sim - like I said THEIR world too- I just found it offensive that any one would be excluded- like I said, I could see the clothes thing - it is the avi part that bothers me. And when you met me, yes I was in Gorean FW clothes since I was in a Gorean sim, just as I wore formal to Frank's last night - again - maybe it's just me -just the thought though that based on the persona one chooses to portray there is an exclusion; it just grated.

Brenda, my mistake, it was Colette who immediately posted after me- forgive the confusion-

I personally would pay to see that. It sounds awesome.

You want to talk about immersion being shattered ... well there I was in Amsterdam, being a very very good girl I might add, when my pleasure at perusing the aisles of Albert Heijn was shattered by ... THE SMURF SONG. The Smurfs getting a revival?

I was gutted. I also once when I was a kid, as a joke, bought my late father a copy of "Christmas In Smurf Land" to get my own back about the corny Santa stuff he was still pushing (I must have been nearly a teenager come to think of it). Backfired horribly - he LOVED it. Not just that Christmas but for many many years ...

Yes, but Peggy's post was an uncalled for accusation, and deserved the reaction to it. I dismissed it too. There was troll, but it wasn't the OP.

Perhaps if people stopped throwing "troll" so lightly - without always really understanding what trolling is - people might not take offence.

I personally would laugh at anyone suggesting that I troll. I might start trolling them then.

Trolling. Hitler. Sweden's Hottest Babe, apparently.

In this case a furry-rights issue.

In RL I have the right to decide who may enter my house and property. If I decide that I do not want any firearms on my property then that is my right. I'm not saying they are bad people, just that I do not want those items on my property.

In SL I think that land owners have the same right. They pay the money for the place and they can decide what type of place they want. It *could* mean that they feel these people are someone inferior, or whatever, but it could just mean that they are making a choice about the type of world they want to have in SL. I can respect that.

Last night I visited a really interesting sim that was trying to get itself set up as a traditional Bushido environment. They were struggling with the people that wanted to come with their light sabres, rocket launchers and so on. They want to put a policy in place that forbids anything but authentic period weapons. Is that discriminating in an inappropriate way?

There are plenty of places to go in SL, and plenty of places that are discriminating is different ways. Go to the places you enjoy, and avoid the places you don't. Our Second Lives are too short to make drama about every place we don't like.

QFT

Diversity. Love it. Since people are often whining about being bored with everything being so samey - this is the flipside of the coin ...

Actually.. Most of the furries *I* know.. are almost always clothed. My best friend is a Bobcat in a business suit. (a very tasteful, well made one, too). He's the type who would like a Jazz club too.