SL5B - No Kid Avatars, please!

Actually, yes, if you're referring to those who prey on those who are under 18, for an obvious reason. Such people will be drawn to places where they can easily find underage friends. And, while we know there are underage people on the adult grid, it certainly isn't easy to find them.

A predator is more likely to want to get on the teen grid. Even then, they're far more likely to be attracted to places like myspace or facebook, where it's much more common for participants to reveal personal information about themselves.

SL is crawling with predator types and deviant types. Some of them may well be dangerous too. They're wall to wall - right from the noob with a prim dick "We make sexors" up to the most hard core of BDSM. SL is a wonderful place for predation and deviation.

If you are asking about agreement that people who want to abuse children would find SL attractive, the answer has to be no. SL is one of the the last places in the world where one would go looking for children to abuse.
This very obvious fact seems to be lost on both the media and LL's PR people.

It seems very silly to me.
LL won't allow child avatars to contribute to the event. They are trying to sweep the child avatar topic under the carpet.
What happens when the media find child avatars at the event?


Media: THERE WERE CHILDREN WALKING AROUND!!!

LL: Those child avatars are in fact adults. Indeed many of them are the only residents of SL who have actually gone through a rigorous age-check procedure. (Add: Some of them have actually gone throgh the procedure more than once. Don't ask! Our explanation of that is in beta.)

Media: You say they are actually adults. So why then were they not allowed to contribute to the event like other adults? You're trying to hide something.

LL: Actually, they are not child avatars at all. Sorry about that first incorrect statement from the PR ex-employee. We're having lag and asset server issues again. Those small avatars are a rendering bug triggered by network and database problems.


I don't believe that LL ever think things through.
It's all short term for them.

That is of course true, and requiring the builds to be PG is a reasonable limit for a public, sponsored exhibition, which would probably put a bit of a damper on the *showcase* part of the BDSM subculture.
(Personally I find that PG is a bit too stifling. I would like to be able to express adult themes, which, contrary to common belief, is not necessarily sex, let alone pornography, but I'll not slam LL for requiring PG for a specific event).

So I am not arguing that everybody should shove whatever controversial belief in the face of others, "just because"; to paraphrase a former foreign minister of ours, "we have freedom of speech; not the duty to provoke others".

But the point still stands that this was *specifically* announced as an event to showcase your subculture, which may have been a mistake in the first place, PR-wise.
Now it's a matter of damage control, and lumping child avatars into a "things we would rather not see"-category is a very bad signal to send. *Especially* since now the "other things we would rather not see" are sexual in nature, making it all too easy to imply a connection. (Never mind, again, my personal belief that sexual subcultures should not be hidden in the first place, on this adult grid).

And considering that there are rules about the contributions, I see absolutely no point in restricting which subcultures can contribute, if they can obey those rules.

ultimately, im not very concerned about any of this. altho i seem passionate about this topic, my anger comes from a more honest place. ive seen alot of people needlessly hurt and mistreated in Second Life over this topic and others. it "pains" me to see this social experiment head down this ugly road to censorship and thought policing and all at the expense of innocent people. alas, at the end of the day, its all pixels. and any wounds this created hopefully will stay in Second Life and not affect people too much in real life.

moreover there is some light at the end of the tunnel because now that Second Life is open sourced, third party platforms can finally create the worlds that we deserved to have in the first place. some of them not created and founded on greed like Second Life. some not turning their backs on their own beta testers and old timers and content creators. some hopefully with more integrity and interest in their customers real concerns.

Second Life can go ahead with their plan to become a business oriented disneyland type platform and line their pockets at the expense of their own residents. the third party platforms as they mature will surely accommodate the mass exodus of talent that is aching to flee this 1984 dreamscape. and when there is no one left for the corporations and businesses to advertise their products to, they will leave to.

This is how its gonna go down.

If LL is providing the sims it's not a resident event but a company event and the sims are always going to come with strings attached. Complaining about it in the extreme seems like a bit of overentitlement. I disagree with the decision, but they're not making a decision that affects all of SL, just the sims they're providing.

Would LL interfere if this was an entirely resident-run and resident-"owned" venture? I'd personally guess they would just distance themselves and go "we don't endorse this, we're not involved or responsible for content hosted on sims a resident 'owns'".

Pulling out of the official SL5B and making do with whatever can be scrapped together on resident-owned land/sims and mass-promote that would send a far clearer message than anything else in my opinion, namely "it's our world, our imagination and we'll make do with what we can rather than put up with this".

This is absolutely true.
However the logical thing for them to do in the circumstances would be to ban child avatars from the company event, and indeed from all of SL just to be safe.
I'm not saying "fairest", "best", etc.

"A group has been created "Kids5B", that will do its own celebration project outside of the LL SIMs. We have 1, if needed 2 SIMs available and it will be a showcase of the creativity, fun and happiness of the kids community in SL "

I'm reading you as very angry. 3Ring's logic seems pretty sound to me.


I have several friends who are licensed therapists who work with sex offenders. Rule number one is it is never ok to even think about, let alone depict, even as cartoons, sexual situations that involve children. I think this is the main reason why this is illegal in many places.


Of course it is perfectly ok, who knows maybe even sometimes beneficial, for consenting adults to do what ever they want - IN PRIVATE. It might not be so good if it arouses someone's desire to involve actual children, but as long as no children are involved it's up to the adults involved. BUT it is accepted in many cultures that sexuality involving adults and children is repulsive. And as nowhere in SL is truly private, SL is not a good place to act out this fantasy.

Rather than ruin the media's propaganda by showcasing the honest and innocent (or outright invalidating the politician's ranting and raving)



That is like saying everyone fits this: "Oh mah gawd you play SL! You're one of those people that goes to them cyber joints ain't ya!"

It's public perception, because none stand up against it. So standing up and going "Hey look, the truth is most are not out there for sexual play. Some are involved in that, but it doesn't mean you should lump all of us into that group"



Yes, forcing the truth to be shared never helps the media and political lies and exaggerations. And that is a good thing



They do a far better job than the rest. There are no fool proof systems.



Society determines what is the norm, and it seems just from the samples here. That this society finds nothing reprehensible or wrong with those who use child avatars for things other than sex.




Nope. Unless they get onto the policed teen grid.

Wow & other games, messenger programs, Chat rooms, and social sites are far more likely stomping grounds online.

Malls, parks, youth centers, and schools in the physical world are also common target areas.



It'd be nice to know who was a threat in the physical world too. But there is no way to know without being able to read minds and incarcerate for though crimes.

Attacking the innocent for the crimes of others is never a good thing.

i found a way to deal with this sexual predatory propaganda, i retend it doesn't exist and that it's just a lie from the politics to get away with more control and privacy violations.

To my surprise, what I posted on the open blogs entries is still there... ignored, of course, but still there. And here's what it was:

"LL, in its infinite wisdom, has forbidden SL ‘childrens groups’ from having a build/exhibit at the 5th birthday celebration. Oh, child avatars can attend, but they’re forbidden to contribute. Way to go, LL. Trying to set new standards for politically correct cowardice?

Speaking of standards… why do the TOS and Community Standards shake the finger at discrimination if LL, the author of those documents, is going to freely engage in it?

Hypocrites and cowards. Every one."

None are saying it don't exist Kyrah

They are saying why punish the innocent for the guilty?

If you see it, report it and let the authorities deal with it.


Or would you prefer an empty world with glowing spheres for avatars? That way none can be uncomfortable with what they see (I think, depends on the colors used and the culture of the person... there may be symbolism that would get some rilled up too), and there would be none of the content that makes people upset.

But it is typical and to be expected and if the goal would be to educate others about the difference between dangerous people and people Rp'ing children in a non-sexual way, then it may not be the best venue for that discussion and issue to be raised.

This might be understood by people on this forum, but in sound byte form on Channel 7 news, it would not look pretty, nor would it help people gain a broader understanding, unless it was more of a comprehensive education about it.

The average person outside of SL, may assume that there is some sexual deviation or pathological compulsion, going on behind people who are rp'ing as child avi's when they learn about it.

Knowing the superficial transmission of information most people receive, it can make sense as to why LL had taken this step, so as to minimize controversy and misunderstanding that may spill into mass media in Sound Byte form.

If now you wish to protest LL and complain about them, when you are usually the perfect LL fanboi, then do it, but at least acknowledge that LL's action here, may be quite practical at this time.

By disallowing a presentation that could do the education they are not helping clear up the media.

There was hardly anything but sound bytes in the media, at no point did Linden Labs step up and say "hey you created a situation to further your agenda, you did not actually do an investigation."

Having to be in world to see the displays, and see the truth in person tends to be far more educational than a sound byte that most will ignore.

If they wanted to avoid sound bytes then children avatars would be completely banned from the procedings so none would see them.

But by banning them outright from putting up a display to combat the sensationalism of the media sends a message to some "hey there were kids avatars running around, but none of them could do a PG display... and there were BDSM ones!"

Wanting LL to reconsider their actions as short sighted and playing into the hands of those that want the controversy to push agendas, especially when those affected are not allowed to speak back is a good thing.



This move is like saying "you play on SL so here is your sexual freak tag" and slapping it on folks, including you simply because you are a user of the service. And then denying you any recourse to deny it.

I went back to re-read Everett's comment and the massively article, and I *think* this is incorrect. As I'm reading it now, I think he was saying that child AVs, Goreans, and role-players (presumably BDSM?) are encouraged to attend, but that exhibits from all such groups will be "respectfully declined." That would be less absurdly inconsistent, if that's the policy.

...

Wait. What the hell am I saying? It takes a strange twist of logic to find something consistent about relating child AVs with Gorean and BDSM in one category, distinct from the rest of the community. I can come up with two ways this may make sense:

1. Pure PR convenience. This has been my hypothesis all along in this thread: that these particular "cultures" are inconvenient, in that they may remind the filthy media perverts of something salacious.

But, what if it's really:

2. For SL5B, "culture" means "RL culture" such as, say, Welsh, Tibetan... Oakland... even (shudder) Canadian?

Okay, sure, there's a RL "BDSM culture", kinda, for some value of the term "culture", but we can imagine that the proud Canadian contingent might object to their unique culture and heritage being listed alphabetically right next to the "BDSM Role Play" build.

(On the other hand... if the SL kid AV culture poses a challenge for the LL PR machine, I wonder how they'll fare with that Tibetan one. )

...

But if it's really #2, then presumably Des just hasn't yet received the memo about how his build has to be about the noble culture of Highland Scotland--none of this dangerous Victorian steampunk subversion.

So... presumably I have no idea what I'm talking about.

It is not entirely clear I grant you. I was really basing that around the fact that Goreanismists were put in the same sentence as everyone else apart from child avs, implying that they would be treated the same and allowed to exhibit.

But no, it's not clear, which suggests to me that someone somewhere has said "oh hell no we can't have kids there" and someone else has said "hold on, no, they should be there" and lots of people are saying "what?" as the concept ricochets around the Laboratory - and as usual, someone somewhere has let the concept out before it has actually settled down.

Well, I dropped notecards (and a truncated version, in IM) on three Lindens just now; Jack, Dusty, and our illustrious CEO, M.

We could attend as embryos to protest.

Canadians running around in murky environments in sexy blue fur?

Not *too* sexy. It is PG, after all.

I'm... too sexy for my fur

And I'm... too sexy for your party
Too sexy for your party
(No way I'm disco dancing)

I just downgraded my account to basic.

In cases of child abuse and exploitation, it's always the adults that are at fault instead of the children. To be fair, shouldn't LL be banning all exhibits by adults and allowing the child exhibits to be shown? In fact, lets get rid of all the people, then it will be fine. I've said for a long time in RL, "It's the people that are destroying our society. Once we get rid of them, everything will be fine." I guess that's true in SL too. Bring on the robotic overlords!

Adz is a robot.

Look, the real problem has nothing to do with the extraordinarily respectable folks at Linden Lab. The real problem is this:



In all honestly I only skimmed through this thread.. I'll give it a more thorough read before the weekend is over. On the surface, it does seem bizarre. I have the utmost respect for folks such as Marianne, Qie, Adz and others who choose to personify themselves in Second Life as a child. It makes absolutely no sense to me that they should be excluded from exhibiting their work as a contribution to a celibration of what frankly has made Second Life what it is today, and has been for the last 5 years.

I'll reserve summary judgement for a time when I'm more able to digest all this, and understand it from all perspectives.. but in the interim, it simply appears to be a shameful and cowardly decision.

Linden Lab, you folks, all of you, are top notch people in my book, always have been, but you're backpeddling in the diversity area here.

Tim