SL5B - No Kid Avatars, please!

No but they do have the personal information and can pull the logs to hand to the authorities to allow them to investigate and request more information as needed.

Law enforcement can not act on digital crimes without the information from linden labs.

Because most law enforcement agencies are ill prepared to handle the digital world violations, they don't have a S.O.P. to use to investigate them.

Takes time for them to catch up.

At the very least SL can slap hardware bans on the accounts involved.

what digital crimes?

Pandering, Fraud, Extortion, Stalking, etc.

Any physical world crime committed in a digital media online, part of the problem is the fact they are often committed across national boundaries due to the reach of the internet.

A good example is the infamous Nigerian scams.

ohhh yes we need better stalking protection in sl please in public places but even then i wouldnt consider that a digital crime inside of SL. if it followed to other platforms yes i could see it maybe. you are talking about inside of sl?

its hard for me to envision anything that does not have real world consequences being considered a digital crime. so the money related crimes yes. but when it comes to social interactions of any kind unless its like the online bullying that leads to rl suicide then i dont think that should be considered a rl crime, digital or otherwise

I still think the progression should still go:

Someone reports a possible crime.

Law enforcement requests information (hopefully a court is involved)

LL releases information

Not the other way around.

digital refers more to the medium used to commit the crimes be it yahoo messenger, second life, WoW, Age of Conan, or Hello Kitty Online.

ok i think i understand. kind of. lol thanks for trying to explain it to me

I was thinkin somethin like that myself but it's too early to say I guess...



Exactly. Thier press as far as "perversion" is bad enough that they should do anything they can to correct false rumors that could cause legal trouble down the road...like this one. I just got in an argument on YouTube today from somebody who wouldn't use SL, and only used other MMOs because he thought that the majority of content was "extreme fetish crap". It's not up to us customers to straighten everybody out...LL has the press watching all the time, one public move by Phillip does more than 100 Blogs by us users.

Indeed, but we still light the candles of knowledge one by one.

He could set the forest ablaze, but so can we... just takes a lot longer and a harder effort.

Indeed, I did mention it though.. avoided the abuse angle a bit.

It's a digital simulation where there are instant tools for removing threats, up to and including locking sims down to only certain individuals can enter the controlled environment.

It's similar to techniques used to help soldiers deal with post traumatic stress and related issues for reintegration into society using digital simulations.

Thanks 3Ring. I brought it up because while I understand that depiction of children involved in sexual situations seems harmless to some people if no actual children are involved, I know that mental health and law enforcement experts consider it to be a serious warning sign.

Most experts believe simulated pedophilia often stimulates potential child molesters' desires to take it to real life. (Apparently many perpetrators were abused themselves as children - although of course most victims never harm anyone.)

Current Western mores do not condone adults wanting to experience virtual sex as or with a child. When people who have this preoccupation get together the FBI is interested because it often leads to the sharing of rl child pornography, which is not a victimless crime, and worse. I have a friend who has participated in this kind of investigation.

If indeed this kind of thing can be helpful for former victims it should probably be done in the therapist's office on a private grid off of the internet.

But all that being said the important thing here is that most SL child avatars have nothing to do with sex and it certainly is wrong to discriminate against them.

As for expecting LL to have some magic way of keeping kids off the grid, well that kind of thinking just isn't realistic.

And I guess each of us has to weigh the dangers and hassles against the value of saving potential victims before shouldering the responsibility of reporting possible sexual predators.

edited to add: And I guess if we live in countries with democratic governments we probably should feel obliged to speak up when our legislators start doing silly things.

I am not sharing details of my story here but it does sometimes ooze out.
If I did you all would have nightmares about it and I am not like that but it does
seriously effect me when topics are like this come up.
Perhaps I really just stay away from forums and topics like this.
And after this I probably will.
I brought that up as my own way of saying hey I do care, I do have serious concern about those who are true victims.....
And its idiotic that we are expect to enforce the rules with those who are adults and whenever this topic comes up it always leads back to one thing because of group of that are labeled sickos who are suppose to also be responsible adults playing with other adults?
We all know certain activity isn't allowed here and that all avatars are suppose to be welcomed yet some how it isn't..
How would you feel because of your activities here were lumped into a un-desireable class even though you weren't doing any harm?
There are residents who are survivors of real thing who are probably like myself severely been harmed and no it isn't about sex when they do dress up as children.
I have never been a part of cathartic rp in that matter here or any where either.
Yet there is lot of people who assume certain things.
I don't hang out with kids, being kid for me is solo thing I do because of people's attitudes here.
Yes a foul mouthed kid who makes fun of adult life, who smokes cigars but it isn't what others may think so it is just best that I don't do it at all yet that just one more thing
I have to do censor myself when I am here.
You can see more sexual innuendo if you turned on South Park or similar legally on your local cable television but its just not allowed here.
What is next will I have to stop doodling flowers too because it isn't cgi enough and offensive?
I am not here to educate others yet at same time it irks me sometimes that my personal play time that isn't about sex is lump into sexual age players.
Yet same time this whole decision that LL has decided is that there are only certain type of people they want contributing and I am not going to be a part of that process ever because I have and do own child avatar outfit I wear a occasionally.

I know only one child av (Marianne McCann) and she is definitely nothing to do with sex. The trouble is it's the others, the adults that get a perverted kick out of associating with kids, that are the problem. I admit that having kid avs around does creep me out a bit, because I regard SL as being an entirely adult place. I would feel equally uncomfortable if I went to an 18+ bar and found there were kids there.

Knowing that the kids are really adults behind the keyboard doesn't help, it's the thought that there are people who would latch onto anyone with a childlike avatar simply because it looks like a child.

I am a mentor and one time at one of the infohubs, a guy just 1 day old, came up to me and asked "Where are the children?" I told him that SL was for 18+ only and everyone was really an adult. He just repeated his question over and over, I repeated my answer until I got tired of him and muted him. But that was kind of creepy.

...and yet so few seem to pay any attention to them, ya know? I've always thought it interesting dat it's us kids who are the ones called pedos by the general SL public, but never those who might try to proposition us inworld.

I'm not referring to those who might be our inworld parents or family, mind you. Jes the ones who might be looking for kids for icky stuff.

I got a question for the group though.

Aside from how one might feel or not feel about kid avvies, what do you feel would be the best course of action for kid avvvies to take surrounding SL5B? Protest? alternate build? shun the event? a parade on hippity hops?

What should be done down the line to educate about child avvies. Everybuggy knows me an stuff, but how do we show that we're a big community, a definitely G-to-PG rated bunch, and are nothing to be creeped out about (well, okay, maybe the ikklespseak is a bit much, but you know what I mean).

In short, we know there's an issue here, a majority sees this as a big problem... what next?

Mari

I don't think any action should be taken.

understand that the most controversial groups are being kept from having their own thing because they are controversial and most likely to get LL in trouble. It's not because LL doesn't like kid avies, it's because flaunting them is like saying "Hey check us out, we got kids to rape" in light of the recent senator going stupid about kids getting into SL and being raped or whatever.

It's not like they're banning kid avies, just saying "We don't want to have to deal with any more problems than we already have'.

I will probably just not attend Marianne. Nor will I volunteer for anything in the future either.
Next time this subject comes up I won't be participating either because I think whatever I say or do will be misunderstood.

Don't go to the event, just a quiet boycott by all not just the kids. If you exclude part of the community, then expect the community not to show up. Instead of a showcase you have emptiness.

Maybe do a couple builds that do show good things about the kids on other sims, let word of mouth bring folks there.

Write - Flood the stations & newspapers that carry the stories and bogus information with a metric ton of paper. Send letters to people in the mental health community and ask them if they have considered using digital worlds for helping people with the incidents in the past. Reference the work used with soldiers and simulations to help with the stress of conflicts. Send letters to Linden Labs expressing your disapproval of this action.

It's hard to educate the masses, because you can only reach so many compared to the numbers a politician or researcher can with a news blurb.

Except the kid avs are the only ones who there has been anything concretely stated about. There are some theories that Goreans and the BDSM crowd aren't welcome to exhibit, but no Linden has come right out and actually said so. Robin, Everett, and Mari's contact have all said the child avs can't.


Then the policy of allowing them attend but not exhibit is inconsistent...they SHOULD be banning the child avs altogether if they don't want the media, etc, making negative assumptions about their presence. As it is, LL is basically just indicating that SL children are a barely tolerated group in SL, and not really a part of our community. It's wishy-washy and cowardly.

Just wondering, has anyone specifically asked about the Goreans/BDSM? (I haven't been keeping up with this thread)

Ah, but then the child avvies would probably be even more mad. They seem to be trying to find a middle-ground to me.

The only limit placed on others was a PG rating.



Most don't come to the forums. The child avatar related sites are better locations to read their views.

I've hit a few following links from here and elsewhere.

A good number of them are upset.

Well Gor turned PG isn't exactly controversial hon. Kids are still kids, PG or not, and the idea of them being raped (etc) is still present

I didn't say they aren't upset, just that if they were totally banned from it they'd be *more* upset. Least I think they would.

Someone said both had been removed as 'cultures' from the application, but I don't know if that's true or not.


But if the child avatars are going to be present anyway, what's the big deal with letting them exhibit? The people who want to make nasty (false!) assumptions about them likely only need to see someone wearing a child av to get started...the exhibit at least gives them a chance to explain their point of view on being SL kids. LL's 'middle ground,' if that's what it is, makes no sense.

The idea has been seeded that is all they are for, but denying them a platform to possibly speak out or show other reasons... well that does lead more weight to the seed in a "wow there is all these PG and G rated displays.. but the kids couldn't come up with anything. guess they are all about sex"



the original message gave the impression that they would probably be allowed to come... implying that there was a chance they wouldn't even be allowed to visit.

It's common sense though. That's exactly how it is in RL. SL is no different in that respect.



For the birthday celebration, hold a kids event and ban adult avs. Get your own back! *grin*

In the long term I just don't know. I don't think there CAN be a solution, to be honest. Other than either blanket-banning anything to do with kids completely, or somehow giving everyone a psychometric test to assess them for pedophilia before they join. The first is clearly undesirable, the second is impossible to operate.

When I first came to SL in 2006 I rented a house in a place called Oakmyst (which is now gone). It was right next to a big "playground" - not specifically aimed at kids but there was a lot of stuff there for both kids and tinies. One time I saw on the map a gathering of green dots in the middle of the sim and I went to investigate. There was a group of about two dozen people, mainly kid avs, accompanied by a few adults who were supervising them. The kids were just having fun on the fairground rides and playing with the animals. Sadly they all spoke Italian but not much English, so I wasn't able to converse much with them. But it was one of those wonderful little SL moments that I'll never forget.

So I think that maybe the key is that there should be more builds like that. Playgrounds and fairgrounds and other fun sort of places. The key to a successful community in RL is making sure there is somewhere for the kids to go, so they're not hanging round on street corners getting into gangs and causing trouble. I think it should be the same in SL too. If there are more places like that, then it'll get kid avs more visible in ordinary kid-like situations, and it'll also be fun for the adults to play. I had a lot of fun on the rides in Oakmyst. Sometimes grown ups just don't want to grow up.