land angels group

I greatly appreciate people ask relevant questions if not coupled with personal attack or name calling. I have great respect when people do this with the motivation to be constructive and improve things for the Second Life community.

The Land Angels project is to create options for new land owners in our community. Its purpose is to help Second Life grow and there is no profit made by its members. We are always open to suggestions for improvement and welcome other trustworthy members of the community at large to join us and actively support the idea

If Catherine asked valid questions like a normal person would she wouldn't get her ass burned. Instead she's spreading conspiracy theories and inuendo. I've become part of that conspiracy theory and I don't care for her accusations.

Ok, now that we're all finished flaming Catherine(two wrongs don't make a right, folks) - how about some hard facts?

What exactly is the Land Angels group doing?

Are you trading desirable land for undesirable land?

ok Anshe and Talen - MrsJakal and I have asked some relevant/valid questions of the group - which of you is going to answer?

Latonia

I don't belong to the group so couldn't possibly answer your questions. I got dragged into this because I am one of those in the government experiment which Catherine decided to link as part of the conspiracy.

Any chance we can all be mature and stop attacking each other here?

I didn't attack anyone blaze so you should probably mind your own business.

I don't see why making a profit is a bad thing.

I do see that having government in SL is a bad thing.

As for controlling all the land, you have to look at how markets work. Since the Lindens are literally adding new land all the time, it would be impossible for them to control it all, and I seriously doubt that say... Anshe is going to go easy on Juwani on a land deal, just because they are in the same group. Even so, that would hurt them all in the long run. Without collusion, you can't keep a monopoly going, and without any means of keeping others from competing, there's no way to hold collusion together.
For instance, what about the guy who is marginally below the "conspiracy" but decides to ramp up and outbid them at the auctions, etc? If the others don't bid higher to match him, they are going to lose the auctions... I mean, if there really was a conspiracy, someone would have thought of this already, if I did.

Econ 101 (maybe 201)

Now as for having a government, that would be a way of creating a monopoly, because the government could keep that marginal competitor out. Social Democracy is usually a tool for aristocracy to protect themselves from hungry competitors.

My mistake Talen - sorry.

So who in the group is going to answer our questions?

Latonia

No problem...easy mistake to make when so many names have been thrown around carelessly about this issue.

> I don't see why making a profit is a bad thing.
>
> I do see that having government in SL is a bad thing.

Actually, this is a specific type of government, one that the French call Liberal and the Americans call Capitalistic. The French call such a government Liberal because its basically a non-interventionist government that lets anyone do what they want.

The advantages are that it works, and works quite well. The disadvantage is that there is no regulation. For example a more interventionist government could fix maximum landsale prices. This is obviously a double-edged sword, and frequently unenforceable to boot; nevertheless many countries do see a certain amount of regulation as a Good Thing.

Azelda

Blaze; Thank you for the compliment

I think I am often misunderstood in my beliefs. I am sorry if you feel that I am against ppl making a profit, I'm not. I have come to realize that there needs to be a place in SL for everyone's ideas, beliefs and motives.

With that said my thoughts on profit are fairly simple and straight forward;

I think if a person (any person) can make a profit in SL they should.
I don't think however we should have one singular group of ppl who make the most money or own the most land dictating what the rest of us should do with our land or our lifestyle in SL.

For example; Lets say I bought a 3k m2 plot of land from a land baron. I think that its the right of the ppl to build what ever thay want on that plot of land.

I have a problem when these ppl who have a lot of existing power in the land business want to get involved with gov't and dictate what is build on that land.

Some say I over reacting or reading to much into the current group associations. I believe I am right on track in my thinking.

As a matter of fact I read an article this morning between Cristinano and Anshe, and the following quote from Anshe only reinforses what I have stated in this thread;

http://www.sluniverse.com/language/

"CM: How do you feel about the abundance of malls, casinos and clubs in SL? There are some that feel it is stifling creativity and making SL a generic wasteland.
AC: Mmmm, this shows there is much demand for this type of content. I also see many creative people there providing fun entertainment and creating demand for products from designers and builders. The only problem I see is with town planning. I am in favor of zoning and I am happy there seems to be a trend for commercial places and clubs to move to private islands or to cluster at telehub areas. I also hope that sometime in the future there are some tools that allow residents or land developers create stronger incentives for businesses to avoid residential areas. The presence of one type of content does not prevent people create other kind of content "

"CM: It seems the hot issue currently is player run government in SL, which is met with a lot of anxiety and controversy. What are you feelings on this subject?
AC: Government already exists in the form of the dictatorship by the Lindens. In many areas at the same time is anarchy. I personally look forward to see more choices for residents in Second Life, created by players. I believe the current system should remain as one choice, but special areas with player governments would be a good thing. In Shadowbane for example we had different nations with different governments and people were able to vote with their feet and choose what appealed most to them "

Cat

I'm just going to pop into this thread for a second to defend Schwanson, not that he needs it since he doesn't seem to be accused of anything, except in a very vague way for being a land baron. Schwanson has not only helped me out of some very cruddy land situations when I was a newb but also several friends of mine who started recently. As far as contributing to the community goes, I think he does it well, and if he makes a bit of profit, that makes me happy. He single handedly made me decide to continue with SL after someone completely ripped me off and he helped out. Maybe I'm one of the only ones he's helped out who reads the forums, but I bet there there are others in world.

Cristiano;

There is a fine line between. We must be careful when we are attacking the subject matter/topic and avoid attacking the person. Its against the TOS to attack a person in the forums. I brought up the connection between groups of individuals that I found alarming. This is public information, please remember that. I have been very careful in my posts to make my points and concerns apparent. If one group acquires all the power over money, land, and Govt. I find that to be not only alarming but could affect SL in a negative way. I believe this public information needs to be seen and ppl can form their own opinions. I have been trying very hard lately not to respond with a gut reaction statement.

I have no interest in the particulars of what each group member buys and sells. Its the formulation of alliances that concerns me most. Such as was written in your article recently with Anche, a known land baron who wants to see Govt but more so wants the ability as a land baron to zone the land she is selling. Now please note here this isn't about what Anshe the person said; I wish to look at this at what a land baron said. Land barons own a great deal of land. Now is SL ready for all land barons to start zoning their land? Or as individuals do we want to dictate what we do with our own land?

I am open to all opinions on this, it is not a matter of my way or no way. I don't want that. I want ppl to be able to voice their concerns and have their opinions heard. Regardless of how I the individual feels, its not about me, its about the impact groups of ppl have in SL. If you hear anything at all, please hear my passion for SL, I want it to be around years from now. If I see or read something I feel will impact SL in a great way I have and will continue to bring it up for discussion.

Hugz
Cat

Anshe,

Both Latonia and I posted questions without personal attack or name calling. Yet you still did not answer, did you just not read our post? I feel that our questions are valid and not to hard to answer. I'm really trying hard to keep an open mind, so can someone if not Anshe, from this group please answer our questions.

Huggerz,
MJ

Yes, I'd like to hear some hard facts about what the Land Angels group is doing as well.

I too asked a very direct question about the Land Angels group, I too would like an answer to my questions.

Thanks;

Cat

I'm intrigued. Members of the group found time to come on here and give Catherine a hard time but we are still waiting for a response to our questions. I see Schwanson is in this forum - can you answer our questions?

This does not give me a good feeling about the group - I don't know about anyone else?

Just saw your post above me Catherine - of course your questions should be answered too.

Latonia

here is what i know -

1> the group is just getting off the ground. not much else has been done except establishing intentions and giving out a few 1024 plots
2> recognizing that 512 of land is not enough for most players, the objective is to offer new players a way of trading up 512 m2 land for 1024 m2 for free.
3> the 512 plots would be sold to buy more 1024 m2 lots.
4> the operation would be non profit - no members would recieve income
5> land tier donations are free donations, for which donators do not recieve payment
6> donations of 1024 plots would be accepted to donate, of course

how this operation will be run in detail is still to be determined and once its figured out i'm sure it will be presented to the community. afterall, the goal is to promote the game amongst new users and having community support will only help us achieve that goal.

My feeling is that the group is very new, and many members know little more than we do about it. I thank Ursa for her notecard detailing the program that she sent me yesterday, but I know she had to write it up quickly and still needs to go over it with the other members.

I am still confused myself over some points, especially the chain of land ownership. Do the donated 1024m2 pieces get deeded to the group, along with the 512m2 pieces? I haven't seen any 512m2 lots for sale by the Land Angels group, so I'm not sure if that is the case. I know that when a group sells land, the proceeds are distributed daily to all members, so that would seem to benefit the non-contributing, there-to-oversee members!

Or does each individual member retain ownership of their 1024m2 lot(s) and then personally own the exchanged 512m2 lots when a swap is made? If so, why even have a group? Why doesn't each of these people just do this philanthropically on their own?

I can see the idea behind the process. But I would like to know the actual mecahnics.

I mentioned before that I really have had no active involvement in either group. I agreed to join because they both seemed like a good idea. I still beleive that. Neither of the group's charters IMO are conflictiing. Since joining these groups, I have purchased a sim island, and all my time in SL has gone towards getting Aasim and the Punany club up and running and performing maintenance on existing businesses.

I have not (until today) participated in the auctions or in land reselling in over 2 months, with a few minor exceptions. This is not at all to say I am out of the land reselling business, my energy is just focused on something else for the time being.

That is one of the reasons I was angered by the insinuations made by Catherine. If I was out of line in my postings, I apologize. I know better than that. I was just shocked that I was being accused of a grand conspiracy, that to my knowledge, does not exist. And was further frustrated by the fact I did not even understand what I was being accused of.

I do not have any answers to your questions at this time I am afraid. Once Aasim is under control and I have time to look into it, I will try to get you answers. If presented with compelling evidence that either group is doing something unethical, I would quit in a second. I have yet to see that evidence. To me, the fact that the membership is kept public as well as the charters, speaks volumes.

On a lighter note, I peed my pants when Pete called Haney a troll.

MrsJakal,

I will answer these to the best of my knowledge:

1) They can choose any available land - they do not have to stick to the same rating. This helps for people who initially picked the wrong rating and did not understand the implications/limitations of PG or M and want to switch.
2) They can choose from any land that the group has. The point is to help them get the right land. As I said in my post about this issue, I would also like to see other methods of assistance added to the group as well since the members have a variety of resources at their disposal.
3) Are you asking are the members profitting from it? Or are you asking how much land has been given away, or both. It certainly is not a windfall for members, who you would note are mostly already established players anyway and hardly looking to a charity group to profit from. I am not certain of the volume of donations or particpation yet by members. The group has not been in existence for very long.

So, operations have commenced

....

but how it will operate hasn't been determined.

Hm.



Edited to add: My interest isn't just academic, or to cause drama, or to show support for one side or the other. It is very practical. In exactly one hour from now, I will be holding a class for people new to land ownership, and I need to know whether this program is at a stage where I should present it to my students or not. Right now, I'm falling on the side of "not". Hopefully this time next week, it will be in a greater stage of readiness.

Can someone answer Catherine's and my questions please?

Latonia

yes.

there was a lot of land donated in the beginning. from what i have seen, some members arranged the trades for new players. so now there is several 512 plots sitting in the inventory, but it hasn't been established how to deal with it.

i hope that was the conspiracy theory you were looking for.