Please have a backbone, Linden Lab

Cris, I am sorry this nonsense has happened to you. Human beings have such a wide range of nobility and utter depravity.

I am loathe to see anything restricting free speech, and yet boundaries serve their purpose. Those boundaries exist in real life as well -- free speech is not limitless under most legal systems.

I imagine this topic is a subject of much debate within LL. Very loaded issues here.

We need a proper definition of hate speech before we can consider life bans. There is a balance - we need to consider freedom of expression - and not everything that has been classed as hate speech is. Of course there are clear cut cases.

In this sort of situation people feel intimidated to defend any build for the fear of being accused of hate speech. Freedom from hate speech is not freedom from challenging or controversial builds. It's not freedom from hearing contrasting opinions on the forums.

Political and religious minorities *must* be allowed to express their opinions.

The threats of real world harm, regardless of what motivates them , are in a different category than matters concerning the virtual world. I am not sure what the answer to such a problem is, but it is a much more serious question.

For example, supposing I were a Linden employee that became convinced a customer was in real danger from another customer. Aside from legal issues and company policy, I think I might have a moral responsibilty to do something like call some government agency to bring force to bear on the threat maker, or to contact the threatened customer against company policy (assuming it might be so) in order to protect them even if doing so might cost me my job.

I wish you safety and less trouble in the future, Cris.

as always the attitude of people here in these forums is BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH...

Zero tollarance is a dangerous thing with our current system of subjectivity. We have no clear laws in world, just a shadow government that decides your fate without a trial.

Where is the line between "hate" and legitimate expression? In SL there isn't one. I can report you FOR ANYTHING. you can be banned FOR ANYTHING.

Zero tollarance requires VERY CLEAR boundries that we do not have currently.

I doubt we will ever have clear boundries and "laws" in world. The lindens like their absolute power, they like their subjectivity, they WANT to be able to KILL you from this world for ANY reason.

Linden Labs LIKES griefers...

They bolster the supposid "need" for the abuse reports system... the very system that gives them much of their power.




But...

In a free world, hate must be tollarated. instead of having a ban happy attitude why not spend that energy on dealing with the haters positively instead of fighting back with HATE. We have the opportunity to really be creative here, but most of you choose to sink to their level.

The apologists seem to think that people have the same rights in SL as they do in RL.

This a a private business.

There is no right to free speech, let alone hate speech.

Perhaps those who employ hate speech are not able to function in a system with the amount of freedom we have in SL.

I highly doubt that ANY other online "game" would give nearly as much leeway to repeat hate speech offenders as LL does. I have played many, and the threshold of tolerance for anti-social behavior is MUCH lower, let alone for hate speech.

Giving a two week ban to someone who was just given a two week ban two days before for coming back with an alt and picking up where they left off is ridiculous.

Apparently the apologists want to err on the side of the culprits.

What do the culprits add to SL? Nothing. Most of the people who engage in hate speech create only for themselves, i.e, their clothing, signs, et al, all of which contribute to THEIR goals. I'd wager that 90+ percent of them dont even pay a monthly tier.

Haters, count your blessings. As long as we have the ACLU type klaxons are around, you are safe. Have fun, at others expense, don't worry, those chicken littles will represent you til the bitter end, probably for motives they don't reveal in public, such as a loathing for general society and the like. In other words, they probably identify with your malaise.

It's against SL's TOS and CS. It's obviouse the current way of handling these things isn't doing much good at all.

I heavily endorse more strict actions against this kinda crap.

Okay, two things:

One, please run your posts through a spellchecker.

Secondly, there is NO Linden pro-griefer scheme- that's lunacy! They wouldn't need an abuse reporting system to "give them much of their power", anyways.

People who want to and do tell nigger jokes and call Jew kikes and Christ killers at , for instance, the Welcome Area, where new members get their first taste of SL, can be kicked out of SL permanently without disturbing this 32 year long champion of anarchism and individual rights without a bit of concern about anyone's freedom being violated.

No one seems to be suggesting putting the hate mongers in jail or killing them or torturing or confiscating their property or driving them from their land because of their actions, just butting them out of the Second Life program. The use of the capitalized KILL in Yashu's post indicates the degree to which the success of his argument rests on a distortion of what is actually happenning. Not being allowed to use the SL program is not the same thing as being killed, and using the term is an attempt to place those who support such things as abuse reports and bannings in a category with murderers and serial killers. It's comparable to calling forum moderation totalitarianism. It's ridiculous.

Bigots who want to express their hatred and sickness in it's full inglorious manner are free to accumulate the resources to start their own 3d virtual reality communications system I wish them no success in the matter.

I'm laughing... This is funny. Please tell me how it makes ANY sense?

I can't believe ANYONE is advocating any leniency in this matter. Even if you DO agree with these actions, it's clearly against the ToS.

I don't agree. We are discussing offenders in clear cut cases with evidence for all to see. Most of them carry on unphased after their initial slap on the wrist. In the history of SL, .001% of the population has ever been perma-banned. I wouldn't say that calls for rash statements sprinkled with hyperbole and caps.

I have no problem giving a person a second chance. Hell, LL even threw another bone at troublemakers recently by deciding that they should be reviewed by a panel of random SLers before they are permabanned. This was not the case even a couple of months ago. If LL saw fit to ban you, you were gone. Period. Now you have a chance, in that a panel of residents can recommend against a permaban after viewing real evidence, i.e, disciplinary records.

I can? I can be banned for ANYTHING? This is drama at its highest peak. Again, in over 2 years, 20 of 20,000 (.001%) people have been banned.

Really, if a gay hater is suspended for placing anti gay propaganda on someone's land, returns with an alt and continues to do the same crap I think that is definable. Also, Who ever said we wanted to ban people for ANYTHING? Only you did. It must be nice to be clairvoyant.

Is that how you would like it to stay?Ambiguous so that no one ever has to take responsibility for their actions?

KILL? Bwahahahahahaha.

Yeah, I am sure they do.

Power? Newsflash; LL owns SL. They have the power. They don't need abuse feedback to hold that power. I really have no clue what you mean here. Let me ask my cat.

Really? We have to tolerate hate? Good thing you weren't in charge of an Allied government a few decades ago... It is not LL's or SL's residents responsibilty to change people's diapers who can't or won't act like adults. This is not SL rehab house for haters. Not to mention, this is not a "free world".

Also, I don't think people are "fighting back with HATE". We are calling for more stringent rules pertaining to hateful activity, especially when it is a pattern, and/or is propagated through the use of alt accounts.

how is it clearly against the TOS...

Please define "hate" for me...

Your definition, like LL's, is opinion... it is subjective. To one person it might not be and to one person it is.

Hate is not universal.

SuezanneC... Death is the real world is being denied access to life by whatever spiritual power you beleive in. This is a seperate world... (a second life) to be denied access by the wrath of the linden gods is to be KILLED.

It is to be denied access. To be cut off from a section of your life that is Second Life. To die would be to lose all life, First and Second.

But Baba! That's not dramatic enough!

"5. USER CONDUCT

5.1 Participant Conduct. In addition to abiding at all times by the Community Standards, you agree that you shall not:

(iv) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;"

Anything else?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Thank you. I'm not the sort to type "lol", but that really did make me...well....

How are anti-racists or anti-homophobes tolerant? They're simply choosing which groups they will be tolerant of, just like racists and homophobes (homophobes? I've seen people terrified of spiders or afraid of heights, I don't think I've ever seen someone run screaming away from a gay couple) do.

To be an anti-racist is intolerant....of racists.

To be an anti-homophobe is intolerant......of homophobes.

I think I have my answer though. I agree that in a private system like SecondLife, I don't have the right to free speech or the right to be offensive. I'm actually very impressed at how open and frank LindenLabs are with their community. It does seem, however, that people prefer things just the way they are with regards to content control. Linden Lab's best move would seem to be to continue fostering SecondLife as a game, because it seems the community doesn't wish a 3-D internet, which would naturally involve loss of content control.

A game like this is immersive, and both the players and the game company seek to create a world where you lose yourself and the lines between reality and fantasy blur. You log in and you actually walk around in it, and you might have a home, and so on.

You can become quite attached to that "home" and feel it is "your home", just as in RL. Until someone puts ugly signs on, then it hurts, and no longer feels safe.

If such behavior is tolerated, and if people minimize these attacks as "pixels" and dismiss the discomfort of those attacked, they help to create a climate of impunity for such actions.

If its moraly and ethecialy wrong then it has no place in an online game of any kind. A biggot is a biggot. These past months I have seen so much hatred in SL its enough to make me want to puke. At what point do we say enough is enough and take back this would we created? How about right now. Cristiano I stand with you against hatred, biggots and the griefers.

Do we all just look the other way because someone biggot or griefers feeling might get hurt? No LL is a private company they can take a stand, and they should. Not just for the good of the subscribers but for the good of something so wonderful that can quickly go to shit if it is not dealt with swiftly. If that doesn't get their attention then the bad press will. I know they will do the right thing, because they are THEY are the best and they didn't get this far by sitting on the sidelins.

The KKK and grifers are both cowards as they are both hiding behind something.


Cat
(yes I am biting my toungue real hard right now.)

What did your mom eventually decide, Lukas? Heh heh. j/k. But seriously, what additional tools do you think we need in order to have real control?

It's important to consider that you may very well be a better driver than your mom. Perhaps she is more likely to crash the SUV than you are The same can be true for Linden Labs.

I had thought that my position was quite common in SL but it hasn't received as much voice in some of the threads lately as I would expect. I appreciate that it is contrary to what the TOS/CS currently prescribe. Personally, I don't think a player should be banned for displaying anti-gay flags, swatikas etc. I think that residents should be allowed to identify the creators/perpetrators publicly. Then I think that residents should react individually as they see fit; Be it using the ratings system (which I think should be radically improved/overhauled), using land-bans, refusing to do business with them, etc, talking to them about it, giving them a piece of their mind, telling their friends etc. Or doing nothing at all.

That's kind of easy to say but it's tricky when you consider alts. A resident can create a griefer alt for the express purpose of making anti-gay flags etc (as they apper to have done) and then avoid any of the repercussions of their actions. They can spend all their time in SL using their non-griefer av. I don't know what the solution is there. Does anyone have any ideas? Are there any technical solutions or is it ultimately a dead end? I think that many will use that objection as another argument for bans based on resident majority-opinion. I prefer empowering individuals where possible rather than allowing majority-opinion bans. On the other hand, this alts problem only applies to griefers who build something and leave it there. Griefers who actively disrupt events could be more adequately dealt with, given the right tools, regardless of whether or not they are alts.

To clarify, I do think that people who make direct RL death-threats should be perma-banned and the proper authorities notified etc. I also appreciate it that it is a fuzzy area.

I'm not arguing here about what Linden Labs must do or are entitled to do, or what rights they have as a company and what rights we have as residents and customers. I'm just saying that personally I prefer the hands-off approach to LL governance.

I'm not addressing anyone in particular, but I think that residents should think twice before arguing that the Linden Labs response, or lack of response, to griefing is evidence of incompetence or small-cojones. It is possible that that's the case but I believe that overall they are very conscious of what they're doing and are working with a very deliberate (though sometimes slightly-inconsistent) policy in mind. Having said that, residents have told me that the response-time to abuse-reports is inadequate. But because I'm for resident-action rather than Linden-action, I probably can't say much about that

To be honest, I think it is improbable that my libertarian or quasi-libertarian position will ever be reflected in the TOS/CS (ie. that they will be made more lenient). So I think that the most practical solution would be to combine both view-points as it were. If LL can improve resident powers to respond to griefers etc, then libertarians can respond using their own 'weapon of choice' and residents who prefer LL abuse-reports/bans etc can choose to use that avenue. In the long-term, improving resident anti-griefing powers will also alleviate LL's workload, in terms of the resources it costs them to respond adequately to abuse reports. I think that one measure in particular that would go a long way is a more complex and thorough rating system that is integrated with access rights to land or even vendor-purchases etc. To my mind, the use of even the simplest blacklists, though problematic, might be preferrable to complete SL-bans. But that's just one option.

What technical solutions or tools could LL provide to give residents their own more-adequate anti-griefing powers, and which ones are currently insufficient? And perhaps just as importantly, what technical solutions or scripting tools can we provide ourselves?

-- Neal Stewart

LL's record on policing griefers is terrible and I've never been able to understand why the leniency. A year or so ago I started an act of civil disobedience (displaying an artful nude in a PG sim) in order to raise awareness of the issue of push-guns and their frequent, unpunished use in griefing. The display garnered much player support and little Linden attention - I had even conversed with Liaisons in front of my "violation" with nary a mention my display.

Since then, the "tools" of the griefer have gotten ever more hurtful and, as well noted in this thread , have begun to roll into real world threats. A recent post by Robin Linden saying that there have been only 20 bannings in 2 years out of a player-base of tens of thousands is for all practical purposes no disciplinary action at all. It is also well known that "hitting back" is often treated at least as severely as first attack, and if you are unlucky, hitting back brings penalties to you and the antagonist is unaffected.

One has to have some sort of power or control in order to effect "justice". We have none and aren't likely to get it. As I see it, unless there is some dramatic Linden policy change on the subject there are only two viable approaches: 1) un-civil disobedience in the form of good people randomly griefing to force the issue (which I cannot countenance for myself or others) or 2) ask someone like the FBI cyber-crime folks to look into one of the more egregious RL threats. The reason that I mention (2) is not that I want LL to be harmed or that I think having los Federales involved in SL is a good thing. But I do believe that LL has let tolerance take preference over the commonweal and needs to take the threats that happen on their turf more seriously.

If I were a RL pub owner and people want to say mean or hurtful things to each other, that ought not be my concern. Contrariwise, if one of my patrons is threatening physical harm to another, then I do think it my moral obligation to eject the threat. I have no idea what the relevant legalities are, nor do I care. LL purports to take a moral stance against intolerance and threats but does not appear to be backing that with action, regardless of how many reports are filed nor how much noise is made in the forums. Having a friendly visit from the authorities likely won't result in grievous harm to LL, but it would certainly get their attention (and the authorities actually have been known to be friendly when investigating). Unlike a call above for someone to initiate civil (court) action against LL, I think this far less damaging.

Very recently, Amazon was being used as a vehicle for sale of stolen goods. Given the dollar amount cited in the article, I presume that Amazon provided information leading to the arrest. I've not seen that Amazon was sanctioned for their unwitting participation. I do suspect that Amazon will be looking a little harder at their practices as a result, though.

Note well, this is not about "mere" hate speech, but threats of RL harm conveyed via Second Life. While putting up signs saying "I hate slugs" is one form of speech (which LL can sanction at their discretion), saying "I'm going to find you in RL and harm you" is quite a different act.

I would say that you need to look at the initiating source. You seem to want to portray this as some sort of circular set of events. A snake swallowing itself by the tail, if you will. If so, I disagree. Intolerance starts with an uninformed, ignorant, malicious, or bigotrous opinion. If those who are the targets cock an eyebrow, are they now as guilty as the initiator? If so, why do we even bother with legal systems?

We have punishment for violations in RL and SL. If someone is emotionally wrought over having been victimized and feels that the perpetrator should be held accountable and subsequently punished, does that also make them intolerant? In a sense, yes, but not in the same context as the initial, usually unprovoked intolerance displayed by the perpetrator.

In other words, if someone reveals themself intolerant, and those affected (or those who sympathise) say they won't tolerate intolerance, the two instances of intolerance are not comparable. Perhaps you are getting hung up on the word itself.

If this is the same episode I was involved with, reported, and that was reported on SL Herald (http://www.dragonscoveherald.com/blog/index.php?p=686)

This person is still in the game, and I heard made snide remarks about how she is still in the game. She is a Nazi, claims she has been suspended 8 times, has used Hate language and Anti-Jewish, built a model concentration camp, supposedly (on the claims of many reputable individuals) built an model of Aushwitz concentration campwith hanging men, then got kicked off that group's island and proceeded to build a model "SS Training Camp" with Nazi propaganda posters (More like a concentration camp), formed a group called Third Reich, then proceeded in the Herald to proudly show a picture of her in SL peeing on the head of a man hanging from a rope wearing a CONCENTRATION CAMP UNIFORM (which was proved as such, as it is almost an exact replica as it is recorded on websites of what a concentration camp uniform looked like). She claims she isnt a Nazi, but is very arrogant and basically told LL off. She says Linden Labs considers her as a Nazi, and she has actually talked to LL on the phone.

And she is STILL HERE?!?!?!?!

I do not know WHY Linden Labs does not take a stricter stance on this sort of thing.

Picture of the Offender on top of a Hanging Man with Concentration Camp Uniform, and she is STILL NOT BANNED!

You know there's a differance. If you don't then you have worse sociopathic tendencies than I do...

Hate groups: Nazis, skinheads, KKK, some sections of the black panthers...

They all hate a group of people for the crime of existing in their oh-so-perfect world.

Humanitarians hate them because they breed ignorance, intolarance, and strife. I'll let it go unsaid that they hurt people fairly regularly, emotionally and physically.

To be honest, I'm about as tolorant as they come... Unless dealing with willful and hateful ignorance and bigotry...

Then I want to pull out the 'board of education' and help them to understand that their views do not allow them to hurt others, because if they can... So can I...

Does that make me a bad person or a hypocrite? Possibly... But I sleep good at night.

Later...

/wonders about sign where she took niece to feed ducks yesterday.

"Hollywood Parks & Recreation Division... Public Park../ Entrance 2$ per vehicle"

cienna -

from the TOS - "take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;"

with this definition ANYTHING can fit!!!!.... that is the most vague subjective set of words I have ever seen. It allows linden labs to blanket practically anything with these words if they want to.

"or otherwise objectionable" What is there that isn't objectionable to *someone*????

Where is the line drawn... wy are we not in an uproar over this??!?! Why are people content with this???

For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would think that this is acceptable.

Any sane person would take a look at the TOS and be horrified at how linden labs has done every single thing they can to ensure we have no freedom here.

To the people that say "it's a private company... blah blah blah" Is this really what you want??? to not be free? to always be at the mercy of some shadow government that decides your fate without any sort of review???

How is the metaverse idea supposed to take off when it is run like a children's game??

The great tax revolt is one example of how the citizens of this world truly do have power over the way it is run and the direction it takes. To accept the current system as something that cannot be changed is silly.

What I don't understand... is why does linden labs think that having a world of freedom and expression will not attract new users..? Everything they do boils down to dollars in the end. Somewhere along the line it must have been thought by LL that having a restricted world of opression means more profits...

and by you people accepting their system as "the way it should be" only bolsters their thinking that.