Why is there so much tolerance for repeated griefing/threats?

Is the WWW a game?
Is SL a game?

The web is a 2D world where some people create content for fun, others to sell it, and lot of people are there just to buy it or view it for free.
The grid is a 3D world where some people create content for fun, others to sell it, and a lot of people are there just to buy it or view it for free.

The web distributes files over the HTTP protocol, using the Apache server and the Squid proxy. A "browser" then renders those files as 2D objects containing text, images, scripts and flash animations.
SL distributes files over the HTTP protocol, using the Apache server and the Squid proxy. A "viewer" then renders those files as 3D objects containing text, images, scripts and poser animations.

On the web, you can meet a lot of interesting people, send and receive email, chat, play games...
On SL, you can meet a lot of interesting people, send and receive email, chat, play games...

On the web, you need to buy your own servers, or a small amount of space on other people's servers, in order to host some type of permanent content.
On SL, you need to buy your own servers, or a small amount of land on other people's servers, in order to host some type of permanent content.

Is a professional web developer, who spends 8h a day producing content, playing a game in order to support his family?
Is a professional SL developer, who spends 8h a day producing content, playing a game in order to support his family?

I forgot where I compared SL to the internet. Oh, wait, I didn't.

I compared it to other online games, which are much like this.

Really, it all comes down to a silly argument of semantics, and a bunch of people that really do believe that they're too important to be spending time playing a GAME, but not too important for a PERSISTANT VIRTUAL WORLD! Which one of these things is really more childish? Playing a game, or being in complete denial about playing a game, and trying to make it out to be something more than that?

If you're here to play a game, you're in the wrong place.
I'm here to use SL as an integrated solution for content development and hosting.
I work with very real and very serious people who need very real and very serious content developed and are willing to pay very real and very serious money - not lindenbucks.
Ever seen the history channel? Those 3D recreations of ancient temples and stuff?
Someone had to make them.
Some people actually make a living off of drawing crap in 3D!
Someone has to draw those 3D cartoons kids like to watch.
But yeah, I can see where the difference lies.
If I use SL to draw stuff, I'm just a dumb kid playing a game!
If I used some other software instead of SL, then it's not a game! It's professional work!

game

• noun an activity engaged in for amusement. a form of competitive activity or sport played according to rules. a complete episode or period of play, ending in a final result. a single portion of play, forming a scoring unit within a game. (games) a meeting for sporting contests. the equipment used in playing a board game, computer game, etc. a type of activity or business regarded as a game. a secret plan or trick. wild mammals or birds hunted for sport or food.

Now Shush Eggy - SL IS a game.I'm sorry if this doesnt tie in with your megalomaniac view of what you choose to do with your recreational hours, but thats life.

This game is of course, touted as an online adult virtual world, and it's the use of the word adult thats the problem here. Linden Labs & people like Eggy mistakenly assume that because you make something with adults in mind then people with a real or mental age of 15 wont bother playing - WRONG

They also assume that inclusion of the word adult will ensure that all it's players are resonable well adjusted people - WRONG

I've been involved in a lot of online game,quite a few of those in developement and quite a few as head of huge online communities.In ALL those games there have been people under the age of consent involved - children - and Second Life is the first adult game I've ever been involved in.

I've NEVER come across the level of abuse that goes on in Second Life.

Not only does this abuse go on but it's actually ALLOWED to go on,and on,and on.Account banning is rarely ever seen,ISP banning NEVER happens and you really have to wonder why.On the subject of consistancy I know one guy who recently received a seven day ban for using the expletive 'Oh my God' in a PG area,I know a girl who received a warning for having no panties on in a PG area - on the other hand I know a guy who for months was blowing up clubs and sims on a daily basis and he was given three day bans and allowed to use over SEVEN alts to carry on his campaign.

I've seen online games use players as 'police' before,veteran players with ban & suspension abilities - Second Life needs something like this because quite obviously Linden Labs have NO clue about what goes on in their world.

Abuse report in this place needs to be dealt with IN WORLD and not in the office of Linden Labs.



Yeah? Me too - in real life I'm an Armed Response Unit marksman, In Second Life I'm a good time boy & a club owner and your point is? I think you just missed the point Eggy by about 14,000 miles - a large majority of people are here for a SECOND LIFE not, in fact, to do the exact same thing they do in REAL LIFE.

Have you considered that some people here just might have a RL contract signed with a RL entity that forces them to be logged on to SL for a specified number of hours every day, doing real, productive work, and that to them, recreation is what happens outside of that time period?
Some people use Adobe Photoshop for fun, namely the people at www.deviantart.com.
Some people use Macromedia Flash for fun, namely the people at www.newgrounds.com.
Does that mean Adobe Photoshop and Macromedia Flash are video games?

Have you considered that your in a tiny minority?

Thanks for taking this thread into the tired "SL is not a game" direction, but this is not about that at all. Game or not, Linden Lab has done an appalling job at times of handling serious disciplinary problems in Second Life. SL's status as a game or development platform is meaningless to someone receiving death threats or being stalked, while watching LL suspend the account for a few days here and there and letting them come right back in on alts to continue the harassment (or just not acting at all). Please stop hijacking this thread.

Producers are always a minority relative to consumers.
SL is made up of both. Yes, some people are here to relax and have fun.
But your fun is made possible by the HARD WORK of that "minority" of users who see this as a serious place.
Without the "minority", SL would be a blank piece of land - no fun in that!

Amen, off you go back to your 'Blingtards' thread Eggy.

I cant agree with your statement there Chris - they do an appaling job of dealing with this kind of thing ALL the time.

If you believe that then you lack creativity.

Honestly after reading official word by Robin on the number of permanently banned griefers (20 in 2 years) i doubt it, Cris, expecially if you consider that SL offerss to griefers many more griefing tools to abuse than the average online game.
The fact that a simple WARNING has been issued to a griefer's alt after his main account has been banned is really the last drop.
The griefer's accounts' money seems to be more important for LL than mantaining the order in the environment they SHOULD admin.

Every time an issue of creativity, control, order, policy, direction, or discipline comes up, I read Philip Linden saying something along the lines of, "we're waiting for the residents to propose something," or "we'd like to see the residents do something about it."

From that, I was assuming that, rightly or wrongly, it's usually Linden policy to "float the issue" and see if users take the initiative.

Might this be true, rightly or wrongly, in matters of order and discipline?

Mmh i doubt that any kind of resident ran police would be of any solution, even if it kinda appalls a wild and well hidden corner of my brain....
An online environment normally needs an "official" arbiter to solve issues, otwerwise any attempt of player government ends up quicly into anarchy or a dictatorship

Not cops, but resident-run system of justice.

No, I'm not advocating it. Wondering if that's in the Linden collective mind.

Ah me *sigh* this really is not rocket science you know. If people are aware that they are never, no matter what they do, going to get banned from Second Life then whats the deterant please?

There is'nt one is there.

Ban me for 3/7/14 days and I can be back in Second Life in ten minutes - I just go and create an alt - because Linden Labs dont/wont/cant use ISP bans.

As someone correctly states above there are myriad tools that make this place a griefers dream and yet where are the tools for dealing with this?

I have not played Second Life for weeks and why? Well because 90% of my time online is spent dealing with bombers/shooters/cranks/death threats/mafiosi and to be honest it's beyond a joke and most club owners will tell you the same thing.

I've been banned twice by Linden Labs - the first one was for 3 days because I had a picture of a girl in thong and bra atop my club and it could be 'seen' from a PG area.The second ban was for 7 days because some guy was offering tp's to another place to people at my club,I asked him politley to stop and he told me to go f**k myself so I went and f****d him instead with a very large bomb.

A lady who I've known for over 11 months in Second Life has been receiving threats ranging from 'I'll hack you' to 'I know where your husband works and I'll shoot him' from some freak for months now - he's still in world,still making threats,still creating alts to harrass the crap out of her.

This is NOT a problem to be dealt with by SL players - this problem should be being handled by Linden Labs.They should be using ISP/CC bans to send out a clear message to everyone - you want to be anti-social/criminal within our world and we WILL remove you for good.

My suggestion to your lady friend is that she tell LL that if they don't immediately do something to stop the asshat who is harrassing her, she will contact a lawyer to see if she has grounds to sue said asshat AND LL.

Uncanny Dev - she IS doing exactly that.

Although LL has recently made great strides in communications with the player-base, we still need to resort to "politburo watching" to try to understand the "collective mind" (politburo watching is an allusion to trying to divine information from the Soviet Union during the iron-curtain days).

Their record on policing griefers is terrible and I've never been able to understand why the leniency. A year or so ago I started an act of civil disobedience (displaying an artful nude in a PG sim) in order to raise awareness of the issue of push-guns and their frequent, unpunished use in griefing. The display garnered much player support and little Linden attention - I had even conversed with Liaisons in front of my "violation" with nary a mention my display.

Since then, the "tools" of the griefer have gotten ever more hurtful and, as well noted in this thread, have begun to roll into real world threats. A recent post by Robin Linden saying that there have been only 20 bannings in 2 years out of a player-base of tens of thousands is for all practical purposes no disciplinary action at all. It is also well known that "hitting back" is often treated at least as severely as first attack, and if you are unlucky, hitting back brings penalties to you and the antagonist is unaffected.

One has to have some sort of power or control in order to effect "justice". We have none and aren't likely to get it. As I see it, unless there is some dramatic Linden policy change on the subject there are only two viable approaches: 1) un-civil disobedience in the form of good people randomly griefing to force the issue (which I cannot countenance for myself or others) or 2) ask someone like the FBI cyber-crime folks to look into one of the more egregious RL threats. The reason that I mention (2) is not that I want LL to be harmed or that I think having los Federales involved in SL is a good thing. But I do believe that LL has let tolerance take preference over the commonweal and needs to take the threats that happen on their turf more seriously.

If I were a RL pub owner and people want to say mean or hurtful things to each other, that ought not be my concern. Contrariwise, if one of my patrons is threatening physical harm to another, then I do think it my moral obligation to eject the threat. I have no idea what the relevant legalities are, nor do I care. LL purports to take a moral stance against intolerance and threats but does not appear to be backing that with action, regardless of how many reports are filed nor how much noise is made in the forums. Having a friendly visit from the authorities likely won't result in grievous harm to LL, but it would certainly get their attention (and the authorities actually have been known to be friendly when investigating). Unlike a call above for someone to initiate civil (court) action against LL, I think this far less damaging.

Very recently, Amazon was being used as a vehicle for sale of stolen goods. Given the dollar amount cited in the article, I presume that Amazon provided information leading to the arrest. I've not seen that Amazon was sanctioned for their unwitting participation. I do suspect that Amazon will be looking a little harder at their practices as a result, though.