Why is there so much tolerance for repeated griefing/threats?

Why does repeated griefing and RL threats made against a player receive a minor slap on the wrist from Linden Lab? A friend of mine has had her events repeatedly destroyed by the same player, who has been banned now 4 separate times, yet allowed to come back. Even while on suspension, they have just used alts to attack. In addition to this, the more frightening part is the threats being made in IMs and even in his profile. From the 1st Life section of the profile:

Now the time for killing people and shooting those dumbass conformists in the brain has come. Especially the little rich bitches with 300 prim hair and highly exclusive night clubs.

What's mine is mines, what's yours is mines.

Don't fuck with me.

And an offline IM:

There will be arrests, and there will be deaths

Yet again the player is allowed back into SL? What the hell does someone have to do in order to be kept out of Second Life? Does this have to spill over into someone being stalked, and even harmed, in real life before anything will be done?

I know there will be apologists who just say "what is the harm, it's just griefing, it's not like anyone is really being hurt". There will always be apologists for bad behavior. Linden Lab has been way too tolerant of griefing - giving chance after chance, which just an invitation to keep griefing. It is the RL threats that are more troubling. If you think that someone online does not have the capability to find out where you live, think again.

Why is this tolerated? If these kind of statements were repeatedly made offline, the person would be in jail. I am going to advise my friend to involve the police if she does continually feel threatened by this person. No one should have to put up with threats upon their life, in either first, or second life.

in a profile, this is a clear TOS violation and should be reported. Profanity is not allowed in user profiles, land descriptions, event descriptions and other places where "everyone" can see it.

Lucky for us, it IS allowed here.

My thoughts exactly Cris, there are some repeated griefers that are treated by LL in an extremely soft and lax way. For instance a guy that has been repeatedly reported for dirupting events and sim attacks, has in his profile some insulting sentences (written in some badly warped italian) and in his profile picks even boasts about the nuking and crashing of a sim, is still around.
I wonder when LL will finally decide to do some cleansing in the SL community...

It has been, though the profanity is hardly the worst part of the profile.

I wondered that too, was at the event were this happened...

and the host said that the person has done this before, I have seen people kicked for alot less, but people like this can last 5 month, when they have done it before and from the profile, will continue to do it..

And what the profile said made no sense, if he would of came to the event, chatted and enjoyed it as we were, he would of been fine and accepted, so I don't think that person ever tried to be "nice". But of course if he showed up with guns drawn, well then I am sure he would of been ask to leave, or put them away...and that is probally what happened to him.

Can't we all just get along! lol

But the songs kept playing thru the event, so did not really do much to spoil the event,except for the people that got sent flying...

thanks for the postings.

I absolutely agree 100%. There has to be a better way to address griefers in SL. When you are targeted by threats like this....it is unnerving...it's downright creepy and it impacts quality of life in SL completely.

I realize that people will say....it's only some silly 14 year old etc. But how do you truly know? I feel that for griefers such as this there is only one logical solution...permanently banning them from game. There should be absolutely no negotiating. The behavior just shouldnt be tolerated.

And at the minimum there should be a THREE STRIKES AND YOU ARE OUT policy.

What is it truly going to take to make it stop?!?!

It is high time for Linden Labs to address this. And a good place to start is with people that post blatant threatening postings in IM's and profiles.

As long as there are 7-day trial accounts, and it only cost $10 apeice for a Lifetime account...there will be SL terrorists. Griefer types have been around since the invention of group chat. They're annoying, immature, and frustrating. But any effort to block them just makes them redouble their efforts to get around the block.

Best way to handle griefers, IMHO, is to ignore 'em. They're playground bullies who want attention. I remember a time when we were having a beach party, and suddenly seven different avis armed with push guns and annoying particles started blowing everyone away. Some people tied to push them back out, even pulled out weapons of their own. But they only left when everyone sat down on chairs, trees, etc (so they couldn't be pushed) and ignored 'em.

As to threats and LL banning...I really feel the Lindens should start banning by RL name and charge account. That will severly limit the number of times banned griefers can log back on. It won't stop them permanently, however. One of the problems with having a wide open anonymous Internet is...It's a wide open anonymous Internet.

Pretty much on the money but don't forget to write them up as well. If someone grief's Aimee they don't hear a word from me. I sit on a prim, file an abuse report and then go about my business. I can't imagine the experience is satisfying for them. The worst thing you can do is argue or shoot back. You instantly lose the moral high ground, and you feed them exactly what they want.

I will prepare the ovens tonight.

I get weirded out by words like "cleansing," too, Schwanson, that sounds like "ethnic cleansing" and "Stalininst purges".

There is a solution to this type of repeated griefing, I believe: naming and shaming.

In a normal democratic society, naming and shaming is an excellent tool to end terrorism, harassment, crime, and just general malfeasance. That is what a free press is all about.

In a game like this, we don't have a truly free press because the Lindens keep a hammerlock on this notion of naming and shaming by saying "personal attacks" are a TOS violation. You cannot cut and paste notecarded convos, it is a violation of TOS, even if they contain murder threats from ppl who could conceivably found you in RL.

They really have you up against the wall with this -- they do it in the name of justice, initially, because they don't want every common methed out tiny mind making charges against other tiny methed out creatures wasting server space. I understand. Just image if these forums filled up with all those phone Italianate mafia wannabees dissing each other and accusing each other inanely of various arcane sillly things. We'd go mad. We already have a certain amount of that.

But it's another matter when a group of intelligent human beings compile some data and realize they have several individuals who have repeated offenses, griefing, cheating, stealing, terrorizing, repeatedly getting banned with alts, etc. etc. Then it is time for civil disobedience against the TOS ban on naming and shaming. Linden mods keep a rather loose rein on this issue, I noticed that in certain discussions that have kind of the pulse of the community, they tolerate naming of names and candid criticism, and they seem willing to tolerate criticial discussion of businesses as distinct from individuals, especially if they are plagued with customer service issues, like IGE or GOM or GIGAS. So when they get a group of say 20 major customers appearing on the forums and saying: X and Y are notorious griefers, cheats, stealers, harassers, repeat banners, well the Lindens will have to face this issue: will they temp-ban those 20 major players? Or will they perm-ban that recidivist griefer?

Now, what is to be done?

Form a chamber of commerce or Better Business Bureau. Create a list of names with allegations. Research them. Compare notes. Publish them in the game when they are verified to the best of anyone's good-faith ability. Have a few people burn their alts on this necessary public service in case the Lindens ban them. Then at least people in the game have a handy notecard to know who the worst offenders are in terms of repeated crimes that only get a wrist slap.

Now, should such persons be facing a jury of their peers after the right to access counsel and be given a trial under the rule of law, with evidence impartially presented?

Um...no? Why? Because they violate the rule of law themselves and scorn it even as a concept, like any "good" terrorist, and so it is hard to play justice system with them. All the justice models people come up with are complicated and hinge on player-based governance and we don't have that.

Therefore you have to use the tactics of social movements like naming and shaming. Publicity is the best weapon. Glasnost is the best defense against tyranny. Publicize. It is the only way.

I played Everquest for 5 years. Our server residents have an off-site "Shit List"


It's moderated by a reasonable group of people and strict rules apply. Here are the rules:

Welcome to the Shitlist!

#1 - All posts must be made with the subject heading bearing the name of the specific person being shitlisted. Posts must be done by players actually playing on (name removed), by a registered EZboard account.

#2 - No posts may be made anonymously. Your characters name in game must be made known if you are to put another character's name on the shitlist.

#3 - MOST posts are given a trial lifespan of 7 days. During this time, players may add other similar things happening with the shitlisted player, defend them, etc. However, the lifespan of a post is not guaranteed. Posts such as "JoeDr00d didn't port me to EC" will be deleted on sight, as will any posts that are deemed by the moderators to be unworthy of even a trial.

#4 - During this 7 day period, if the story is still being uncovered or added to, the post will be allowed to stay until a relative period of stasis. At the end of this period, it will be determined by the moderators whether or not this person is going to be deleted or remain on list.

#5 - Shitlisted Players that are deemed worthy of their placement here will be kept on the shitlist permanently, accessible from the main page of (removed) as well as the forum itself. To be deemed worthy means that there has been enough testimony and evidence brought forth to make a substantial case. In the world of EQ, 100% proof is nearly impossible to come by, but common sense and good judgement are more than enough.

#6 - Shitlist posts that are deemed insufficient based on their merits will be locked and taken down, with an explanation given by the moderator. In some cases the explanation may be left open so players can respond, but in many, the case is closed when the moderator renders it so.

We'd like to stress the severity of being posted here. A post here means that the said player should be avoided at all costs, as they have proven themselves to be dishonorable. Please make every attempt to resolve the issue with the player's guild, the player's friends, the player, etc., before posting here. Please treat this as a last resort.

Also please realize that situations or cases arise where the moderators have to make a judgement call. In these cases, the decisions of the moderator are final, but must be made unanimously by the moderators.

This is now a NON-EDIT forum. So think before you hit post

They make it clear, that it is a "last resort". It is important to have taken every possible measure to deal with the incident. It is supposed to be an anti-grieving tool, not the opposite.

Alot of asshats were outted, and over the 5 years, it was well served.

How can I become a moderator? Can I add people who make false accusations to the official shit list? Oh man....this can be alot of fun.

False accusations? Where? when? If I make an accusation, its based on evidence. I don't openly divulge evidence when it's under advisement.

As far as Cristiano's concerns, I think they are very valid. Though I do not think such matters should be dealt with by the player's. This is a matter for LL, and if needed the proper local authorities.

Physical threats of RL violence should be treated very seriously. Repeat offender's should be IP banned. If LL is not treating these incidents the way we feel they should, then we should start a thread (like this one).

LL are the only one's with access to IM and chat logs. Letting the assclowns on these or other forums determine who is guilty is a terrible idea, as they have no evidence other than what a few people claimed occured.

#6 - Shitlist posts that are deemed insufficient based on their merits will be locked and taken down, with an explanation given by the moderator. In some cases the explanation may be left open so players can respond, but in many, the case is closed when the moderator renders it so.

I assume you missed this part.

You haven't made false accusations....really? Maybe these lil tidbits will refresh your memory


These are all false accusations you leveled at Schwanson without evidence....Welcome to the SL Asshat list

You are not a mind reader and you have no idea what evidence I have. I choose not to post evidence while it is under advisement. In fact YOUR accusation is false.

And furthermore, I engage with decorum not childish antics that you so prominently display in these threads.

Nice save asshat....my guess is you'll be under advisement for quite some time ....at least until people forget.

Childish antics? You started the bit about the shitlist...and you made all of those quotes.....kind sucks being called on it doesn't it


I don't have to be a mind reader to know that you are full of it and I'm not making an accusation.....I'm stating FACT.

Thank you for your childish response. The FACT is, I do have evidence, if you think that merits being shitlisted, it only proves YOUR inability to be called on it.

I offer to host an Shitlist on my messageboard.

Thank you Schwanson - I agree. The responsibility for this clearly lies in Linden Lab's hands. If it were just general griefing, I would say the player method of notification has some merit, but in the case where someone is targetting another player and making threats, that is outside the scope of anything that players can do to help. I had someone ask me, in the course of attacking me with racial slurs, where I lived in Miami Beach. They said they were in Florida too and could easily drive down to find me when I least expected it, and that they would find me. This person was banned for 3 days. Luckily nothing else came out of it, but what happens when it does lead to something?

Then post your evidence or shut the fuck up.

When i talked about cleansing i sure didn't mean going around with a space marine chaplain power armor and a saedaku flamebringer to burn the heretic griefers.
I meant something like what you can read here (even if i will admit that the picture kinda touches some strings in the most primitive parts of my brain and calls up a wicked grin on my lips ):
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/index.shtml
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