Why is there so much tolerance for repeated griefing/threats?

Please do not hijack this thread.

I think there should be a zero tolerance policy towards anyone who threatens to cause harm in the real world. If it can be verfied it should result in a permanent ban. No exceptions.

As you can imagine, the use of the word "cleansing" in reference to any society does evoke the spectre of ethnic cleansing. I know what you meant though I am not sure why Linden Lab is so afraid to permaban people.

WHat we we all talk about if not for griefers tho?

What exactly happens when that responsibility is in Linden Lab's hands? In my experience last night.....I was told the "office would handle it." I'm not sure exactly what that means and if the office is handling it...what exactly are they doing?

For me the issue is very clear. You don't negotiate with terrorists. Even though I will say, that intially (multiple incidents ago) I did try conversation and reasoning. Then I banned and muted. Then I tried hiring security. Finally trying desperately to ignore....and of course --- always, always reporting. However, for me from a business perspective -- large live events with lots of people are expensive to undertake and disruptions from griefers cause people to leave and many not to return.

I am sick of waiting during every large event I hold for this particular griefer to appear. I have done my part. My guests have done their parts -- we reported. We contacted the Lindens. Even though the Lindens are now very quick to respond to an incident involving this griefer... it remains extremely frustrating and a bit scary when bizarre threats are placed in profiles and sent in IM offline messages.

Now granted, running any club will attract an element of grief, but for me the line should be clearly drawn when threats are made. And I don't believe that for some of these griefers -- negotiation with a Linden is going to work. The griefer needs a clear message that the behavior isnt going to be tolerated. When the grief happens and a ban of just 3 days is given, that is a very clear message that the behavior is tolerated and even expected.

Last night, as this most recent incident was happening I had several people in attendance tell me...this was why they quit running a club. I, for one, am not abandoning club ownership because of a miserable griefer. But I do want to feel safe, and I do want to feel heard by Linden Labs. When someone doesnt feel safe, then Linden Labs has a responsbility to the community to act quickly and decisively to end the terrorism.

I don't lean toward the litigious - in fact - quite the opposite. From what was posted it is unclear how "real" the threat is, but it is clear that the recipient has been been made to fear harm and has been harassed.

Fortunately, California seems to have rather "liberal" standards of stalking and harassment which appear applicable. One can always expect that any legal action will be expensive, tedious, and often unsatisfying. But at best, by invoking action in the matter, you may well be able to compel RL identification of the player and have him sent the message that threats of this nature are no joke.

Prokofy is correct. Name and shame. LL seems to take seriously the naming issue but allows this type of behavior to repeatedly go unchecked. If I post a message and name someone as a legitimate stalker/griefer, I am the bad guy even if the information is accurate. They'd be all over me and everyone would write to warn me not to post a name.

If this type of abuse can be documented the person should be gone forever. If LL does nothing the person getting abused should have every right to name them.

My very personal opinion is that at the very least the police blotter should include the name of the target of any disciplinary action and full details on the action/punishment.
The current no naming policy seems quite aimed towards the protection of griefers and their privacy, wich to me seems quite a ridicule policy.

You always agree with Prokofy. INTERESTING.

Do you consider neg rating a person with 10 alts griefing?

Apparently, they can only be stopped when they stop PAYING.

Remember Cris, just like RL, a good portion of the rules are there to protect the criminal(s).

Hell, if some asshole comes on my land and uses a push weapon on me, I cannot retaliate. If I do, I face penal action. I guess i have to log out and hope that he is gone when I get back.

I miss UO and killing those asses, legally. I wany my magical axe back.

I have dealt with Internet Tough Guys and Internet Tough Girls before. YMMV, but it has been my experience that they are full of hot air.

^ Steamboys

Yep! When threats are made against people in RL then that should be actionable by LL.

Sooner or later LL will have to deal with this issue.


_/_/

That is what everyone likes to think, and I think why LL takes a laissez-faire attitude to it - but what if, even once, they are wrong. The kid who calls in a bomb threat to their school just to cause chaos probably isn't going to bomb their school, but we all know what can happen if it is ignored. There is zero tolerance for it, and there should be zero tolerance for RL threats of violence.

Check and see if he's temp-on-rez.

Agreed. Just because they are usually full of hot air, does not mean they need to be treated with kid gloves. In 2002, there were aproximately 20,000 instances of complaints to the authorities in South Korea over online disputes. Some of these disputes led to RL violence.

I think the bomb threat analogy fits well here. How will LL feel when a player is actually stalked, hurt or killed in RL because they decided to treat these people with kid gloves? How long will that 8 mil survive if they are sued as an enabler?

In parts of Canada, "uttering threats" is a criminal offense. A Google brings up many examples, actually:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=%22uttering+threats%22&num=100&hl=en&c2coff=1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off

Threatening someone may not be a prelude to actual violence, but even if it isn't, it's not nice -- and can be downright scary to the other person! -- to say such things in the first place. So I really, really frown upon it.

Agreed - some may think this is stupid, but for days after the incident online with someone threatening to find me in Miami, I would find myself just for a second looking around as I would come and go from various places. It is not a great feeling, by any means - and I think for women it is doubly terrifying, as so much of that type of violence is perpetrated against them.

Additionally, I have zero tolerance for things that make Torley sad.

All it takes is ONE time for the threat to be real, so I do agree with the Canadian treatment of threats.

It should be noted that we do also prosecute for *terroristic threats* in the US, although I do wish it was less selectively enforced. There would be a few more people still walking this earth, had the authorities listened and taken action.

Well first of all it would be stupid, and expensive, to make all those accounts, and nowadays, spend all that money, just to negrate somebody.

I have never done any kind of mass negrate alone or in a posse. Unbelievable as that may sound. What I have done is *discussed* the concept of mass, orchestrated negrating to try to isolate and shame griefers, including those who lag sims to 37 FPS.

I personally have negrated people here and there on very specific occasions -- look on my profile, it's not like there are many.

I still advocate consideration of this technique because so little seems to affect these griefers that I look for all kinds of tools to isolate, name, and shame them. And if nothing else, you can cut their stipend back (see Jeska's published formula, and it seems to me that if you have negrates balancing out your posrates, that might reduce your stipend tho I'm not sure.

P.S. Why did you cancel my calling card??? And to think it had mod perms, and to think I never once used mod perms to change the textures in your houses! or tint them!!!!

P.P.S. Oh dear, I have four Linden cards now, including Rheya.

What I am hearing from this thread are several possibilities:

1. Create a shitlist outside the game and have people post to it through various procedures commonly agreed and posted

2. Create a shitlist in-game and post it.

I would favor the latter, though I know when a certain Christmas factory owner once published a big billboard on her lot of all the people who "killed Christmas" the Lindens were on it like white on rice, and it was considered "wrong".

So this is something I'll try some day on an alt I don't mind burning, when I have the time.
I find that other players who try to name and shame in various ways in-game or on the forums get themselves banned, when it is really the target of their response who should get perma-banned.

You wonder why they aren't better with IPS numbers on the alts who spring back to harass some more.

Unfortunately, what it's probably gonna take to get the Lindens to pay attention is a case where such comments and actions in-game, done on a repeatable and attributable basis, DO spill over to RL and someone is harmed.

When that happens, and I'm of the opinion that it someday will, the legal costs of defending their lack of due diligence will either put LL out of business or force them to change their procedures in such a way as to stop victimizing the victims.

We give away more RL information online than we probably realize we do. Because of this, any and every threat should be disciplined as if it were as serious as a heart attack, even if it is just some tard trying to be a badass.

Someone once used my casual comments to find out where I worked, and from there he got my phone number and address. I had to quit my job, move and change all phone numbers and online contacts because of some internet 'dork.' Thankfully, he was in New York and me in California, so it never bled into a face-to-face confrontation, but it was bad enough. (He even sent my mother flowers.. How creepy is that?)

Never assume that you haven't given away your personal information, because you might have without realizing it. Threats should be taken very seriously, because it might only take one time to be, if not fatal, then at least extremely disruptive to you, your family, coworkers and friends.

This is exactly my point. People have gone off on a tangent about shitlists and all, but none of that is going to do anyone any good if some psycho targets you offline because of something in Second Life. Linden Lab has a responsibility to handle these issues seriously and consistently. There should be no gray area involved with "Now the time for killing people and shooting those dumbass conformists in the brain...".