Please have a backbone, Linden Lab

There is also a difference between acts which offend people, as these do, and acts which actually cause offense (actual harm), such as trapping another's avatar, or attacking them with scripted weapons, or interfering with their movement inworld, or crashing their client, or sabotaging their builds (Like when Cristiano's land was attacked by griefers, who exploited a bug in the land-management code of the system to rez a crapload of objects on his land. Once the land-limit was reached, the older objects, his own started getting returned.)

Everyone in this thread is completely correct that these acts are against the TOS, should be punished under current rules. But do you want SL to become a metaverse, or stay a sort of meta-game as it is now? I'd like to see it grow into something bigger, a new layer of the internet if it can, but it won't happen if there is content management like in the current iteration of SL.

I agree with you on that concept.

I also do not think I'm going to be reasonable about people like that. I have a quote from a person who really summed up my thoughts in a single line of text:

"At some point, philosophy stops and you have to start pushing bad people off of buildings..."
-- King Stannis of Nothingland

Sorry if I offend, but when people's ideas advocate the dehumanizing of a group, it becomes clear to me that the only reason to do that is to make it easier to destroy them later. If you can convince enough people that beings with purple skin have no souls and aren't human, then you're paving the way for abuse, slavery, or even genocide.

I'd like to put an end to groups like that while they're still organizing themselves, before they have any real amount of power.

Unreasonable? Aggressive? Perhaps. But history has shown what allowing people like that to be tolerated can do. I have no interested in ever hearing about the "Genocide of 2020"...

Obviously it boils down to dollars, it costs money to run the servers and pay the wages! No money= No SL! We can be as free as we like until the plug is pulled out, which would certainly happen if the majority of us, fed up of being terrorised by hate fueled 'free speech' got fed up and moved on. Dismissing this as blah blah blah is crazy! Money is real unfortunately.

It's called corporate business. You are not here by force, buddy. If you don't like the way it is goes, say so and if that doesn't bring you the change you seek, be consistant with your 'righteous indignation' and quit paying Linden Labs to offend you.

Personally, if it turns out this individual is not permanently banned, I will be quitting Second Life. I strongly encourage others who claim to feel strongly on this to do the same.

Why? Because it is one thing to say you believe in something, and quite another to act in accord WITH that belief. I do not pay companies that use lipservice to mollify me while permitting this manner of behavior to go basically unchecked.

If Linden Labs sees people actually willing to STOP PAYING because we're not getting satisfaction on griefers, they will do something about it. They are NOT in business to lose customers. We have power we often do not grasp... the power of our wallets. Use it.

If you will not, you're just another mouth on the forums complaining but not willing to actually DO anything about what bothers you. And you know what? I have no respect for that at all.

I'm following this incident very, very closely. If this individual is not permanently banned, I will be cancelling my account. Period. I'll miss the people here, the friends I've made, and the fun I've had... but in the end, there are more important things than playing a game... and being consistant in supporting those who are paying you is one of them.

Let us hope Linden Labs hears this strongly enough to act. I would hate to think I am the only one willing to take this to the limit.

I trust everyone is aware that hate mongers thrive on attention, yes? Like the attention ya'll are giving them now....

Seriously, this much focus on them is the same as an offical rally for them. Doesn't matter we dont agree with them... the only important part in their minds is that THEY ARE THE CENTER OF ATTENTION.

In other words, is the benefit of continuing this conversation worth the price? YOu are playing right into their hands.

We've said enough: "Linden Labs, we would like slightly stricter enforcement of the TOS with regard to these matters. It is quite clearly against the TOS and we want to see better enforcement."

At this point, anything beyond that is doing nothing but feeding the ego & causing enjoyment for the very people you want banned.

Make the KKK & Nazis happy if you like, but I am of the opinion they have had enough enjoyment at our expense, and strongly encourage this thread to die.

-AP

You miss the point. Just how many times has the sentiment 'we'd like to see stricter enforcement of the TOS' been uttered here? I'm sure this isn't the first time. How successful have you (or anyone else) been on actually seeing that sentiment taken seriously and seeing Linden Labs move on it?

It is not about giving idiots and asshats attention the crave, though that may well be all that comes from it, depending upon what Linden Labs decides to do (or not do).

It is about keeping this at the FOREFRONT of discussion so Linden Labs understands we are, indeed, very serious about it and it isn't going to be allowed to be swept under the carpet and forgotten.

Honestly, I can't tell you how disappointed I am that the responses after the sensationalism of the attack itself has faded are already this blasse' and willing to let it go. But perhaps that really is what people want, hmm?

But hey, look on the bright side -- if they don't ban the schmuck, you won't have to worry about reading my posts anymore.

Antagonist,

The ostrich approach is often put out there as some type of solution - just bury your head in the proverbial sand and it will all go away. It doesn't work. I am glad you think this is about ego - as are all the people who have been victimized both online and offline by this type of stuff. Your post is incredibly insulting.

While I agree with you that threats are over board, these individuals do have the right to the freedom of speech (to express their views and thoughts) we all enjoy, and they are protected by that right. But to threat, indimidate, or abuse someone, should not be tolerated at all. Even though a threat in-game may not be so physically dangerous as in the real world, non the less, it is still a theat.

If you don't like what they are wearing or doing, then you have the right to ignore it and move on. But if they are threatining you, then it is YOUR duty to report it. Copy the chat log, take pictures, if you get pushed (which is against the SL rules and regs, if it is done without consent) then report it.

Look at the top of your screen while in SL:
Help---view pvp abuse (to see WHO shot you)
Help---file abuse report

They are there for a reason. Sure people get banned and more often than not they get a slap on the hand and are temp-banned. The Lindens have a lot to do and respond too. There is a lot of room for abuse, of filing for abuse, and they have to look at every angle. Sure records can be checked, but we must remember, this is a SECONDLIFE. In the real world we simply can't just ban someone for thinking a certain way or having a view we don't agree with.

I'm not sticking up for anyone here, I'm just saying there is more to the picture than just, "He shot me, ban him". Much like real life what we do in the privacy (even though there is no such thing in SL until they fix the camera pan exploit) of our homes is our right. But to shove it in others faces and force it upon them is definetly wrong. I agree more needs to be done, but don't forget a linden has to play Attorney, Judge, and jury all in one....


Edit: Curious but can LL do an IP ban? Not that I care, just something that came to mind.

"but don't forget a linden has to play Attorney, Judge, and jury all in one.... "


It is dispicable that you accept this...


Cienna... YOU... are intollarant... to a degree that matches those you want to see killed from this world. You cannot tollarate freedom. It must scare you... all those people free and expressing themselves... an SL renaissance of creativity... ooooohhhh scary...

I have one question to posit to you...

Does abuse reporting... or banning... or whatever... does it *prevent* anything??? Hasn't the "crime" already happened?

The only thing that abuse reporting and conciquent banning does is inturrupt true creativity. The different thinkers of this world are killed from it in the middle of grand projects, when your dreaded griefers are not stopped... they lost nothing... a new account and they can pick right back up... but the true creators lose all their work and their time.

Banning them didn't prevent the incident and it won't stop future ones...

All these measures do is punish legitimate expression and creativity.

The only reason the system even exists as it does today is to support linden absolute power and to limit freedom and expression.

If you want to stop grief then why don't you ask for tools that actually prevent it instead of supporting a system that is biased agaist different thinkers and true creativity. Perhaps the ability to not just mute text but an entire avatar... where your client removes them from view and their scripts/objects cannot effect you.

We had the ability to become phantom... and that was protection against much grief... but the lindens took this away from us... imagine that. Like I said before, the existance of grief is a positive one for the lindens because it gives them a "reason" to remain in their absolute power roles.

Are they making political and or personal statements or is this just SL's version of reality TV in an attempt to get dwell? If someone really wanted to make a political or personal statement that would truly affect SL; then I would think that these ppl would be organized and well spoken.

If these ppl really wanted to make a statement that made ppl think. They would be organized and served by having these types of builds on an island that are well publicized. Yet they hide behind their sheets and their keyboards. Those who want to make an impact, those that want to make a difference; are not cowards.

Yet what I see is far from that. It is my opinion that this is just another cheap attempt to game the system. Sex sells, reality TV sells, shocking news sells. Its all the same thing.

More so it is the lowest form of bigotry and should not be tolerated, period.

The rules for this type of behavior are well documented in the TOS and should be enforced immediately. Put any political or personal spin on it you wish; hate is hate and has no place in SL.

Cat

"The rules for this type of behavior are well documented in the TOS"


Bullshit... They are all vague, extremely broad, and based entirely on the opinion of LL... an opinion that we are not given clear definition of.

according to the TOS, not a single person in SL is innocent. It is written to be a blanket to allow LL to kill anyone from secondlife. No trial, no review... nothing... they don't even have to tell you why!

They are not "bullshit"

Terms of Service, Community Standards, Research Ethics in Second Life,Forum Guidelines

have you actually read the TOS?

Something tells me you haven't if you are still defending it.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that a TOS is written for your protection. It is not. It is written for the protection of Linden Labs. Specifically, it is written to cover their ass in the event someone decides to draw their ass into court.

To that extend and end, it is deliberately written to give them the greatest possible latitude and accord them the greatest amount of room for interpretation.

You can throw yourself on the ground and pit a hissy fit if you choose to, but those of us who deal in reality understand that the TOS is not made to protect us. Which, by the way, is all the more reason to insist that the company who wrote it and is purportedly administering it clarify when there is question (like now) and act when they state there has been an infraction (like now).

nothing like a good contoversy to get the RL people to pop their heads into the game, sounds to me that by stretching this incident out (and encouraging nazi-bitch) it works out to free advertising....

Edit: Yes as a matter of fact I did and in the TOS I would like to quote the following:
"5. USER CONDUCT

5.1 Participant Conduct. In addition to abiding at all times by the Community Standards, you agree that you shall not: (i) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content that infringes or violates any third party rights; (ii) impersonate any person or entity, including, but not limited to, a Linden employee, or falsely state or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation with a person or entity; (iii) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content that violates any law or regulation; (iv) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable; (v) take any actions or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content that contains any viruses, Trojan horses, worms, time bombs, cancelbots or other computer programming routines that are intended to damage, detrimentally interfere with, surreptitiously intercept or expropriate any system, data or personal information; (vi) take any action or upload, post, email or otherwise transmit any Content that would violate any right or duty under any law or under contractual or fiduciary relationships (such as inside information, proprietary and confidential information learned or disclosed as part of employment relationships or under nondisclosure agreements); (vii) upload, post, email or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation; (viii) interfere with or disrupt the Service or servers or networks connected to the Service, or disobey any requirements, procedures, policies or regulations of networks connected to the Service; (ix) attempt to gain access to any other user's Account or password; or (x) "stalk" or otherwise harass another user. You agree that Linden may take whatever steps it deems necessary to abridge, or prevent behavior of any sort on the Service in its sole discretion, without notice to you. "

The community standards as mentioned in the TOS:


Behavioral Guidelines - The "Big Six"

Within Second Life, we want to support Residents in shaping their specific experiences and making their own choices. The Community Standards sets out six behaviors, the "Big Six", that will result in suspension or, with repeated violations, expulsion from the Second Life Community. All Second Life Community Standards apply to all areas of Second Life, the Second Life Forums, and the Second Life Website.


Intolerance Combating intolerance is a cornerstone of Second Life's Community Standards. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as whole. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images in reference to another Resident's race, ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual preference is never allowed in Second Life.


Harassment Given the myriad capabilities of Second Life, harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner which is offensively coarse, intimidating or threatening, constitutes unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors, or is otherwise likely to cause annoyance or alarm is Harassment.


Assault Most areas in Second Life are identified as Safe. Assault in Second Life means: shooting, pushing, or shoving another Resident in a Safe Area (see Global Standards below); creating or using scripted objects which singularly or persistently target another Resident in a manner which prevents their enjoyment of Second Life.


Disclosure Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Lives. Sharing personal information about a fellow Resident --including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, and real-world location beyond what is provided by the Resident in the First Life page of their Resident profile is a violation of that Resident's privacy. Remotely monitoring conversations, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without consent are all prohibited in Second Life and on the Second Life Forums.


Indecency Second Life is an adult community, but Mature material is not necessarily appropriate in all areas (see Global Standards below). Content, communication, or behavior which involves intense strong language or expletives, nudity or sexual content, the depiction of sex or strong violence, or anything else broadly offensive must be contained within private land in areas rated Mature (M). Names of Residents, objects, places and groups are broadly viewable in Second Life directories and on the Second Life website, and must adhere to PG guidelines.


Disturbing the Peace Every Resident has a right to live their Second Life. Disrupting scheduled events, repeated transmission of undesired advertising content, the use of repetitive sounds, following or self-spawning items, or other objects that intentionally slow server performance or inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life are examples of Disturbing the Peace.


Policies and Policing

Global Standards, Local Ratings
All areas of Second Life, including the www.secondlife.com website and the Second Life Forums, adhere to the same Community Standards. Locations within Second Life are noted as Safe or Unsafe and rated Mature (M) or non-Mature (PG), and behavior must conform to the local ratings. Any unrated area of Second Life or the Second Life website should be considered non-Mature (PG).

Warning, Suspension, Banishment
Second Life is a complex society, and it can take some time for new Residents to gain a full understanding of local customs and mores. Generally, violations of the Community Standards will first result in a Warning, followed by Suspension and eventual Banishment from Second Life. In-World? Representatives, called Liaisons, may occasionally address disciplinary problems with a temporary removal from Second Life.

Global Attacks
Community Standards violations which broadly interfere with or disrupt the Second Life community, the Second Life servers or other systems related to Second Life cannot be tolerated in any form. Such actions will result in a minimum two-week suspension and a review of your account for probable removal from Second Life.

Alternate Accounts
While Residents may choose to play Second Life with more than one account, specifically or consistently using an alternate account to harass other Residents or violate the Community Standards is not acceptable. Alternate accounts are generally treated as separate from a Resident's principal account, but misuse of alternate accounts can and will result in disciplinary action on the principal account.

Buyer Beware
Linden Lab does not exercise editorial control over the content of Second Life, and will make no specific efforts to review the textures, objects, sounds or other content created within Second Life. Additionally, Linden Lab does not certify or endorse the operation of in-world games, vending machines, or retail locations; refunds must be requested from the owners of these objects.

Reporting Abuse
Residents should report violations of the Community Standards using the Abuse Reporter tool located under the Help menu in the in-world tool bar. Every Abuse Report is individually investigated, and the identity of the reporter is kept strictly confidential. If you need immediate assistance, in-world Liaisons may be available to help. Look for Residents with the last name Linden.

My leaving wouldn't hurt LL at all. I currently pay nothing, and if I leave it frees up 4096 meters of land that could then be sold.

That I accept it, or that its true? Do you think this is not the case? Who has the power to ban? Lindens. Who has the power to decide the fate of the person? Lindens. Ok so maybe not attorney that might be other players. You think I am dispicable and frankly I don't care. I see it this way, you don't... life goes on.

it has been shown in the past that if we as a collective don't approve of some part of secondlife, it *can* get changed.

I don't see why anyone should just blindly accept linden opression.

I never stated that I did. And thats not revelent to the topic at hand. Its about banning people.

'cause, ya know...

They own the game.

It's like... You walk into someone's house, you obey their rules. If you don't, you get asked to leave. Same deal.

I blindly accept nothing.

On the flipside, I don't foolishly expect anything else.

Finally got a chance to catch up with this thread. There is a lot to respond to and a lot not worthy of response.

As I state in another thread (Prokofy's regarding the anti-gay display on his property), I don't believe "turning the other cheek" has the same effect in a virtual environ as in reality. There appear to be too few consequences for those who enjoy being schmucks, whereas those in RL are plentiful.

As others point out, SL is a game, a privately run enterprise in which the admins have extremely broad rights. I have no problem with that, as I can choose to financially support them or not. Ditto those who feel their "creativity" is threatened by harsh actions against those who display and promote hate.

But I feel something needs to be highlighted here: SL's "mission statement" (in the TOS) in effect declares the intent and desire for SL to promote a tolerant enviroment, to foster respect and understanding, to banish displays of hate. What I have read to date suggests an inconsistency in LL's administration with regards to this statement. Reading of so many instances, hearing so many complaints and so much dissatisfaction, one gets the impression that LL's motive is solely profit, not the creation of a tolerant virtual community.

Profit is LL's unquestionable right. I get the sense -- both from the reports of their varied action, inaction, and occasional Linden responses in related threads -- that they struggle with balancing their "mission statement" and their profit motive. I do not accuse them of malice in any way. But failing to uphold their TOS verges towards false advertising. I hope LL and their counsel realise this and do something to fix it -- and yes, I hope that action will take the form of more stringent disciplinary measures against those who do not act in the spirit in which, apparently, Second Life was created.

For those who want a "counsel of peers" or some "in-game system of justice"... I'm afraid that's both dangerous for LL and dangerous for the community. LL needs to keep their creation on track, and putting governance in the hands of players opens the door to further disparity. Even if they would wish to and change their TOS to reflect it, I don't think LL can legally wash their hands of these issues or give that level of power to players.

Of course, the usual caveats apply... not a lawyer, just a smart girl who has dealt second- and third-hand with TOS-like issues, liability, etc. I will also reiterate what I mention in that other thread -- I'm new to SL, considering a long-term, Premium membership, but will hold off until I see how the chips fall with items such as this. They are important to me, and I appreciate others bringing them to the fore so I may make a more informed decision what to do with my RL dollars.

Ultimately, I think that the only solution which would result in a metaverse and be able to scale up to near infinity would be to move towards a SL where people may self-host, (or pay bandwidth providers to host), and administrate their own grids. The "game" of SecondLife would stay on the Linden grid, but that is the only place where you could depend on the same consistent experience. Going to other grids, you might not be able to bring your inventory with you, you would likely be dealing with RL businesses, and the rules would also change from grid to grid.

So, a display of Nazi symbols might be considered normal on one grid, barely tolerated on another, or get you outright banned from a third grid.

LL you hearing this?

Ever consider you're loosing more business by not consistently enforcing the TOS then you would loose by better enforcement?

Thank you Meilian for your post!

_/_/

Thank you Cristiano for taking the time to again let LL know that they are acting irresponsibly in their continued refusal to deal with this in a professional manner.

Maybe they really don't care about this issue!?

_/_/_/