Please have a backbone, Linden Lab

Ok, using your own logic then Yashu, lets say someone raped and murdered your mother... I suppose you would then do nothing... Its not going to prevent it.. Its already happened.. Why punish this individual?

Two more things and I'm done here:

#1. LL is not an all opressive force, whos goal is to ruin your life by preventing you from enjoying yourself, or expressing yourself in any way you choose for that matter. In fact, this thread has been focusing on the fact that they are very very much the opposite, to the point that they often overlook even their own TOS even when there is clear evidence of a violation.

#2. Honestly Yashu, I hope that at some point here you decide to remove the cotton from your ears and listen, and I mean truely listen (read) and think about what some of the people here are trying to say before you blurt out more nonsense about the SL TOS taking away your rights to do _anything_.

ok, one more thing... last thing I promise..
Normally, I would have waited and gone through to the last post to make sure I didn't miss anything. Also normally, I would have become frustrated with the whole situation and simply clicked the little 'x' that makes it all go away. However in this special case, after reading that particular comment in Yashu's post, I felt an overwhelming urge to reply to that statement. If this is alread a wasted point, I apologize in advance and I will not be posting any more to this thread..

Fox,

Thank you for the fantastic post.

I don't want to rub salt in the wounds of any US citizens here who are truly concerned for human rights and free speech, and I don't want to start a political bust-up, but let me just say that the long post about freedoms being based on the "american way" grated badly in my mind. From the European perspective Guantanomo bay lost americans the right to think of themselves like that. Its sad, but its true for us.

I kinow this isn't the place to discuss such things. All I'm asking is that you be a little more sensitive to world affairs and the presence on the forums of substantial numbers of non-americans. Such blatant and inappropriate self-congratulation just makes us think you don't know what is going on.

"Guantanomo bay lost americans the right to think of themselves like that"

Last time I checked, I didn't get to vote on the Guantanamo issue.

Dangerous thinking Barmovic.

Being an asshat should be against the TOS.

Barmovic, first let me say, I did go off on a political sounding lil speech, somewhat as a reaction to others who were touching the same areas. Now I'm trying to focus more on the TOS, as Cristiano asked, and how it affects in its present form and any future forms it might take. This is more likely to be relevant to us as SLers.

I do want to make clear, tho, my statement about the SL 'American Freedom' thingie wasn't intended to be some form of jingoism. I was merely making an observation of the kind of virtual model that LL has apparently patterned for us to live under in SL, at least as it appears to me in my admittedly limited experiences of world governments.

The freedom of speech debate in this thread is ridiculous. SL is not the United States of America in which it affects our real life literally to have freedom of speech or not. Without freedom of speech in America there could be no SL, for instance.

But SL is NOT Real Life, it is our Second Life, and it is an online virtual community. Therefore we need standards of some type to keep out and ban those who grief the community for the sole sake of personal entertainment. Even in RL, graffiti and vandalism is illegal. In Germany, Nazi imagery symbols or literature is illegal.

How are you defending RIDICULOUS behavior crying out "freedom of speech", thats like the smart ass little kids in school who always cried out "freedom of speech" when their teachers told them not to cuss or such.

What we are trying to do here is keep griefers and others from disrupting our community over, and over. Those who purposefully display hate to grief another. And what we are calling for is STRICTER PUNISHMENT and a backbone from Linden Lab to punish those who did this instead of allowing them to do it over, and over, and over again.

You're right Nolan. Loose wording.

Instead of
""Guantanomo bay lost americans the right to think of themselves like that"
I should have said
"Guantanomo bay lost americans the right to think of their country like that"

There are of course a huge number of Americans who are as horrified as Europeans. I didn't mean to suggest they need change the way they used to speak and think of themselves. Just of their country. And their government.

I apologise. I used the word "themselves" to refer to the national identity, while in fact it could be taken to refer to them individually.

I'm sorry I let this leak out. I just can't tell you how ANGRY and DISAPPOINTED I am in a country which I too used to respect as a champion of freedom. Enough.

Marxism cannot coexist with free speech. (This has been proven countless times. There has never been a Marxist regime that could survive for long without supressing political speech.)

The core ethic of Marxism is, "to each according to his needs, from each according to his ability." Under a true Marxist system, the production and consumption of goods are disconnected. Everyone gets what they need. Everyone works as best they can. This is supposed to be more equitable for everyone, because there is no rich and no poor -- everyone is equal.

As Sox Rampal said, nice idea.

It doesn't work along with free speech because people say things like, "I work hard, how come I get the same benefits as somebody who sits on their arse all the time". Or, "The only reason you got that position is because your father works for the ministry of waterfronts". Or, "my sister moved to America and she has a sports car, and now I want one too". (Ask anybody who has lived under a Marxist regime for any period of time, these are the kinds of things that were on their minds.)

In effect, a Marxist regime must REQUIRE everyone to be happy (as opposed to the messy democratic approach of letting everybody pursue happiness.)

Marxism is an economic system, opposite of Capitalism. Dictatorship is a form of government, opposite of Democracy. (There is also Theocracy, Monarchy, Anarchy and I suppose others.)

I think that of all the economic systems ever devised, and all the forms of government ever devised, the Capitalism-with-Democracy is the only combination that can tolerate free speech. The reasons for that are rooted in human nature.

To suggest that Free Speech is as futile as Marxism is, I think, absurd.

Buster

I think my earlier post outlines the situation

It's quite ok. I am disappointed too. I have strong ties to Europe via heritage, relatives and friends. It kills me to see the breakdown of long standing mutual admiration and understanding.

I don't think its rediculous at all (although I pretty much agree with everything you say after "The freedom of speech debate in this thread is ridiculous".

It scares me that people, especially young people, don't understand how important Freedom of Speech is. So I can't just let it go when I see "free speech would never work". I'm amazed that more poeple wouldn't jump all over that. What are they teaching in school anyway?

I don't know if you are addressing me specifically, but if you are, I can assure you that I am NOT defending anyone's "right" to display swastikas or burning crosses or anti-anybody anti-anything. I agree that the right to free speech does not translate into the right to offend people in SL. SL is a system that you pay a subscription to use. Linden is a business. Linden can and should try to minimize the incidence of material that is clearly "objectionable".

So I agree 100% that any debate about the importance of Free Speech in RL has little to do with SL content. Now, if SL was owned by the government and paid for with tax money, that would be different. But it isn't.

Buster

Buster:

Yes, the value of Freedom of Speech in RL is VERY important. Drastically important.

But in Second Life as I said we are not dealing with those issues as Second Life is a virtual world. We are dealing with hate mongerers, troublemakers, and people who just want to be offensive for their personal joy who do not deserve to be part of a community if their only intention is to grief and disrupt it.

I personally think LL act as a service provider like my phone company or my interenet service provider, they provide a support and if they choosed not to interefere too much in what is happening i 100% agree, you have enough tools to prevent things to happend on your land so stick to it, what is happening on your neightbors land do not concern you, you can try to have an arrangement for sure but if it just fail do not expect things to go because you find emm offensive. The hate crime and pedophilia attacks (in the sense you attack them) are just the shroud hiding the truth, you dont like the way your neightbord express himself and try to impose him your vision.

If i decide to build a gigantic "a la" castle wolfenstein filled with 3rd reich paintings and so it is MY concern, not yours , dont like it dont look at it.

Non tolerance start by yourself and someone displaying hatefull things do not mean you cannot have a word on it.

But thats the only right you have on it.

Fighting evil, for that's what racism, national-socialism, etc. is, and no two ways about it...

Fighting evil is not about being politically correct, it's an ethical imperative. Who would you rather have running the place, Churchill or Chamberlain - tough stance against evil, or laissez-faire appeasement?

This kind of rot and blight must be fought where ever it rears its hideous head, however insignificant it might appear to you. Being intollerant of evil (there's that word again, and I make no apologies for my use of it) is a good thing. Being tollerant of evil is being a part of the evil.

You are right, this isn't the place to discuss such things. Would it be, I would remind you to look in the mirror before you indict someone based on their nationality, for expressing an opinion. I'll gladly move this conversation to the off-topic forum if you want to go tit-for-tat on matching countries with their so-called atrocities. But that has nothing to do with expressing a need for free speech with the responsibility of citizenship.

Here is the problem -- "..griefers and others..."

Who are the others? Define acts of griefing (which we have beaten to death). Fine, toss them. My concern, is 'others' and those who would broaden their scope of others to include disruptions such as bad paint jobs and a store next to a house as reason for punishment.

I've read your posts Athel and don't lump you in this category. But I do see a group who are pushing for government and more member control who have limited tolerance for those who don't think like them. This is what concerns me... and others

I agree totally Cris, it's almost like I can never get by at an Event at The Edge for example or da Penthouse without getting Bombed and knocked 3 Sims back! Then I have to relog! Hell, last time there was a bomber; they didn't even show up in the PVP Report for who used the Push Script! Are they making scripts to cover their tracks now?? Until something is done with "No Tolerance" I will continue to hunt them down in game with my gun, however; if they now have a script that covers their tracks; this is a very serious issue! Oh, by they way Cris; I love your house, who built it?

With all due respect, I believe the "what ifs" are irrelevant to the thread. We have the Terms of Service, which appear to be inconsistently and ineffectively enforced. The original post was about fixing that enforcement. I further suggest LL change their TOS, if they can't or won't enforce it as written.

This isn't to say the "what ifs" are irrelevant to SL at large... simply well beyond the focus of discussion.

It's just that some people's definition of what is evil differs from others....

Sure... the evildoers are hardly likely to consider themselves as such, are they?

Who gets to define "evil"?

I like to look at girlie magazines. Are they "evil"?

When you talk about evil, you are talking about an abstract morality concept. "Evil" can't be defined without also defining "good", and both concepts are value judgements.

There are evil things that everyone agrees are evil, and good things that everyone agrees are good. Betwixt there is an ocean of gray. Personally, I think zelous imposition of ones own morals on others is evil. (Hence, my disdain for Theocracy.)

In most wars, both sides think they are on the side of good fighting against evil. Go to Iraq and find two people who are shooting at each other, and interview them. I'll bet they have different ideas about who's evil.

If you say "some repression is good and other repression is bad", you are putting a few individual people in charge of defining good and evil for everybody. That's OK for everyone who agrees with those people, but, as they say, power corrupts. The bullwork that is supposed to protect everyone from evil is inevitably coopted and applied corruptly.

Buster

Again, you can divert this all you want. This is about enforcement of existing policies, as defined by Linden Lab.

One day an evil griefer will come along and knock you off that fence you're sitting on

Why is everyone afraid of these people? Why does LL need to step in for them to be dealt with?

This whole WWIIOL/griefing business is fascinating to me, simply because this is a situation that you're not likely to find in any other MMOG. Now, after spending the past week or so exploring the game world in general and using my off-time to explore Jessie and Rausch in particular, I'm amazed that this has gone on so long.

First of all, these guys aren't invincible. After being killed in Jessie on my first visit by the grandduke, I decided to get even and did so pretty effectively, killing him and several of his buddies. This is with a few basic weapons, an invisibox and an 800ms ping.

I am a conservative, I am Virginian-born and a former CO of one of the oldest squads in the WWIIOL community. I remember the same accusations being hurled at those players who chose to don the uniforms of German soldiers.

I have no doubt that the predominately liberal viewpoints of a community like SL are a HUGE source of tension, but just from reading what's already been documented about this "war" I can see that the majority of the WWIIOL presence here, which was more than likely just a group of average players who didn't know what was going on, have long since given up and gone back to the Blitzkreig war. What I see now is leftover trash that doesn't belong in either community, or simply can't accept the fact that the South lost the Civil War.

My point? Don't rely on "government" to do your dirty work for you. The power of arbitration is an incredible responsibility and should only be used when absolutely necessary. Is that power necessary here? I don't think that matters, because you - the players - already have the power to get rid of these clowns. Use it.